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PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique
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NOW WITH PICTURES PROPERLY ATTACHED!!!

I did the Patriot Half this last weekend in East Freetown Massachusetts. This is the second time I have done this race. I did it in 2013 and had a blast, I skipped it last year because I did the 70.3 in Mt Tremblant the same week. This year I came back. I will do this race every year barring a scheduling conflict as long as I live within driving distance. It is that good.

http://www.sunmultisportevents.com/Patriot_Half.htm

My A race this year in the FULL at IMMT so this is a perfectly timed race for me to fit in to my training for my first full.

The lake was warm. The lake was calm and is stained but has good viability and shallow all the way out I could catch occasional glimpses of the bottom. They said 69F but I would believe it was even warmer if they told me so. The Lake (Long Pond the largest freshwater lake in MA which is not THAT big) is an awesome swim venue. The swim is well supported with kayaks and boats. The swim was a time trial style start. This was the first time I have experienced a swim start like this. You are put together in your age group and you walk down to the start in rows of 3. Every 10 seconds you cross the line and start and a group of 3. The result is a super clean swim with zero contact. BUT if you are a crappy swimmer like me (late onset adult swimmer) you may find that everyone you are with is faster and you have no one that is that little bit faster to draft behind. I eventually got on some feet near the turnaround and came in a disgustingly slow 43:47.




Transition was easy and quick enough at 2 min 34 and out on to the bike. The 56 mile course is a two loop fairly flat course. The pavement is OK to rough in spots. Keep in mind I currently live in Northern Maine so a paved road is a good road in my world. The bike course has a PILE of volunteers and Police at just about every intersection stopping cars and keeping it safe. The course is open to traffic BUT it was light to non existent throughout most of it. There were water and Gatoraide on the course at two difernt spots that you pass twice. I had my speedfill loaded with Gatoraide and a bottle filled with 50% EFS quick shot and 50% water. I picked up one Gatoraide on the first loop and one water on the second loop. I really did not need that much hydration but was experimenting with fueling as much as comfortably possible. It was pretty breezy in spots and the wind never seemed to be behind me. But I held together my plan to keep my watts at 75% to 85% for the ride and be able to save myself for the run.






I did the Bike in 2 hours 52 min 7 seconds. https://connect.garmin.com/...activity/810559125/3

I averaged 19.5 mph and 149 watts AP. I think I may have held back a little to much but I was very happy that I stayed consistent on the ride.

T2 3 min 16

The RUN 1 hour 49 : 04seconds

https://connect.garmin.com/...activity/810559125/5

I got out on the run course and before the first mile made a wrong turn and ran an extra .35 miles before I realized my dumb mistake. The course is not that hard to follow so I blame no one but me and the fact that I was leaving T2 by myself. Error corrected I settled in trying to stay at an 8.5 minute mile for the first mile with the plan to then get up to an 8 min mile for the rest of the race. The run course in a fairly flat to rolling one loop course with 2 hills worth noticing. I ran with zero water which is unusual for me. I had no problems as the aid stations are EVERY mile stocked with water gatoraide and about every 3rd one had coke, bananas ice and gells. It was nice to not carry anything I grabbed a cup of water and Gatoraide an every station until mile 11. I ended up averaging 8:20 and once again held back maybe 10% on the run because I was thinking I did not want to bury myself out there and be out of training for 2 to 3 days for my first full in August.







The finish line was great. Iced race bottles, cold towels and kiddie pools of ice water for those who wanted them. Muscle Milk, Cliff bars and a nice T shirt, medal and decent Swag to boot!

There was a catered meal for racers from an Italian restaurant that was great.




AND free race pictures!!!

I actually got some pretty decent race pictures from the race I did last weekend. AND by good I don't think I look "good" I mean that they appear to have captured and accurate image of my riding position. I still look like a fat POS (the camera doesn't lie)

If anyone has anything to suggest regarding my position on the bike I would love to hear it.

I have been riding this Slice for 4 years now. I am very happy with it. I am comfortable riding on it for up to 4 hours on the rough chip sealed bumpy roads up in Maine. On nice roads I can ride a good while longer. It has a 5-7 HED Jet wheel set with a wheel builder cover and a Powertap hub power-meter. My FTP is 212 and i hope to be back up to 250 or better by early August.

Thanks ALL,

Jamie
Last edited by: Jamie: Jun 26, 15 18:29
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [Jamie] [ In reply to ]
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NOW WITH PICTURES PROPERLY ATTACHED!!!
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [Jamie] [ In reply to ]
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Congrats on a good race. Our story and race times are similar. I was there too, did it as my first Half in 2011, was back in 2012 and now for my third in 2015. I too did the IMMT 70.3 last year and again, like you will be doing my first full this Aug in Mont Tremblant (great venue). The timing of this race fit in as you stated as a warm up for the full. Our times are kinda similar too. My swim was about 0:44, bike was 2:51:xx and run was 1:54. I finished in 5:39:xx which is my PR for a Half IM distance. Good luck at MT, can't wait. The final push is ahead of us, 6 more weeks :)

By the way, my favorite in terms of volunteers was how they had one guy ahead of the aid station shouting to you what you wanted to drink, he then relayed that to the servers and by the time you get to the table they are ready with your choice. That was awesome, not to mention the free pro pictures. I also enjoyed the swim and in general could't praise it enough. Will definitely be doing this one again.
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [Jamie] [ In reply to ]
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Agree about the race, it's my favorite of all the ones I've done so far in my 3 year tri career, including one IM branded race. Nice job on your race. Like your helmet graphic!

Your position is really pretty high. By contrast, I went 13 minutes faster on only four more watts (AP), although I'm probably lighter as well. I'd start taking out spacers, and perhaps move your seat forward a bit. Your hydration choices are costing you some speed but you probably already know that. If you want to check out my position, look up bib #741, I'm a geezer but that hasn't prevented me from achieving a reasonably aggressive position, and making the most of my very limited watts.
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [Jamie] [ In reply to ]
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Ignoring your position (which is shit but fixable) there is absolutely no reason that any able bodied male of average or larger size should be only averaging 150watts and have a claimed FTP of 212. If you are following some sort of program which has lots of easy rides, big gear hills etc I suggest throwing it out and just go and ride harder. Really just go smash yourself for the next couple of months and ignore your 'zones' specific intervals etc. You are essentially untrained on the bike and the gains you will make mentally and physically just from learning to push yourself harder will be massive. I personally don't think people should start their training with power meters but should start by simply trying to keep up with those faster than them.

I learned a long time ago that the only pertinent information you offer is found within the last sentence.
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [avikoren1] [ In reply to ]
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I'll see you there!
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [mopshiv] [ In reply to ]
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mopshiv wrote:
Ignoring your position (which is shit but fixable) there is absolutely no reason that any able bodied male of average or larger size should be only averaging 150watts and have a claimed FTP of 212. If you are following some sort of program which has lots of easy rides, big gear hills etc I suggest throwing it out and just go and ride harder. Really just go smash yourself for the next couple of months and ignore your 'zones' specific intervals etc. You are essentially untrained on the bike and the gains you will make mentally and physically just from learning to push yourself harder will be massive. I personally don't think people should start their training with power meters but should start by simply trying to keep up with those faster than them.

ThAt may be the case for this particular person, but I have seen a few able bodied middle aged males trained correctly and extremely intensely that have been basically topped out at 200 watts. Genetics is a bitch.

OP, you need to first learn how to sit on a Tri bike. You are sitting on it like its a road bike.
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the advice. I have always error on the side of comfort over areo. Maybe I can try and push the position the other way.

I have a 5 hour ride today.

I am gona drop the stem down before I take off and see what happens. I will be on the trainer today. If the dropped stem is still comfortable then I will see if I can drop it more.

I know the speedfill is costing me some watts. I will take it off and try to measure the difference in watts in coming weeks.

THANKS FOR THE INPUT
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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I find this extremely difficult to believe, much like a person who can't lose weight because of 'genetics'. Sure above a certain level say 4wkg genetic limiters may come into play but when we're talking <2.2wkg then I highly doubt it. I would be 99% certain that anyone who went and rode a solid amount of km's (say 300+ a week) for 6 months to a year and pushed themselves on their rides would achieve decent results. I don't even believe they would need to be training 'right'. No intervals, zone 2 endurance, vo2 max etc just simply km's on the bike where they are pushing themselves hard up every hill and trying to better their PR's.

I would love for a sports scientist to weigh in with their opinion.

I learned a long time ago that the only pertinent information you offer is found within the last sentence.
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [mopshiv] [ In reply to ]
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The race was on Saturday June 20th, I just did that FTP test on Thursday the 25th. (indoors, on the trainer) and got 212.

My last test was in April 30th and was 194 AP.

I did the test a few days after the race because I felt that I "left some money on the table" with the bike. I guess I was right.

Thanks for the input.

Regarding my position, what do you suggest?? Drop the front??

Thanks
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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I have tried to "roll my pelvis over the seat" rather than just fold over at the waist.

Another thing I need to get better at.

Thanks
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [mopshiv] [ In reply to ]
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mopshiv wrote:
Ignoring your position (which is shit but fixable) there is absolutely no reason that any able bodied male of average or larger size should be only averaging 150watts and have a claimed FTP of 212. If you are following some sort of program which has lots of easy rides, big gear hills etc I suggest throwing it out and just go and ride harder. Really just go smash yourself for the next couple of months and ignore your 'zones' specific intervals etc. You are essentially untrained on the bike and the gains you will make mentally and physically just from learning to push yourself harder will be massive. I personally don't think people should start their training with power meters but should start by simply trying to keep up with those faster than them.

I hate this sort of judgmental approach to power that attaches great importance to absolute numbers. Last I knew it was w/kg & w/cda that mattered, not your absolute watts. I've seen admittedly untrained guys in computrainer class set their FTPs to 150, and that's probably more typical of an untrained middle aged male than 200. But some people can just go out and do over 200 watts on no training and others are going to be way less. The OP is targeting an FTP 30-40 watts higher so he's essentially admitting he's got room for improvement.

ST seems filled with macho "my-ftp-is-higher-than-yours" posturing. But I've seen women do very well with FTPs of 175-190 or so. I follow a guy on Strava who's super strong but it takes him 50 more watts to average the same speed as myself. In this race my bike split was in the top 15% overall on what to you is a ridiculous 153 watts. But I'm over 60, very aero, and for now need to ride with a very conservative IF probably since I didn't start running until I was in my late 50s. Maybe over time I can improve my IF but for now I have to go with what works.

I do agree with you that a lot of triathletes need to just go out and ride really hard and build basic fitness. But what that basic fitness consists of is relative to the person and let's avoid absolutist and simplistic value judgments.
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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My post came off as judgemental but it is not meant to be. The OP and any beginning triathlete needs to get rid of their power meter and simply try and keep up with those faster than them. They will make far faster gains that way than any other IMO. I agree with you that absolute watts don't matter, small women can do crazy speeds on tiny watts but the OP isn't a small women!

I learned a long time ago that the only pertinent information you offer is found within the last sentence.
Last edited by: mopshiv: Jun 27, 15 6:04
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [mopshiv] [ In reply to ]
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mopshiv wrote:
My post came off as judgemental but it is not meant to be. The OP and any beginning triathlete needs to get rid of their power meter and simply try and keep up with those faster than them. They will make far faster gains that way than any other IMO. I agree with you that absolute watts don't matter, small women can do crazy speeds on tiny watts but the OP isn't a small women!

Yeah sure, his powermeter is holding him back. He should get rid of a tool that helps quantify performance and gives a great tool to improve fitness at any ability level. You do realize that a powermeter can be used as a motivator to ride harder and faster as well?

And if you think an average speed of 19.5 mph in a half iron race is a beginner triathlete, you need to get out more at local races and look at the BOP results.
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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tttiltheend wrote:
mopshiv wrote:
My post came off as judgemental but it is not meant to be. The OP and any beginning triathlete needs to get rid of their power meter and simply try and keep up with those faster than them. They will make far faster gains that way than any other IMO. I agree with you that absolute watts don't matter, small women can do crazy speeds on tiny watts but the OP isn't a small women!


Yeah sure, his powermeter is holding him back. He should get rid of a tool that helps quantify performance and gives a great tool to improve fitness at any ability level. You do realize that a powermeter can be used as a motivator to ride harder and faster as well?

And if you think an average speed of 19.5 mph in a half iron race is a beginner triathlete, you need to get out more at local races and look at the BOP results.

I am new at TRI.

I grew up running (I was skinny way back then) I have always ran even when I transitioned to lifting and other activities that added bulk. So I am no speed demon, I can run well and consistently and stay uninjured 9which I think is half the battle with being a runner)

I NEVER owned a road or tri bike until 3 years ago. I rode a MTB just for fun, never in any competitive way and I never trained on it.

SWIMMING I think my 43 minute time speaks for itself. My PR at HIM swim is 38 minutes (training swim on a measured course with glass like water)

I appreciate all the input as I think I only know enough to know I don't know enough at this stage. :)
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [mopshiv] [ In reply to ]
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mopshiv wrote:
I find this extremely difficult to believe, much like a person who can't lose weight because of 'genetics'. Sure above a certain level say 4wkg genetic limiters may come into play but when we're talking <2.2wkg then I highly doubt it. I would be 99% certain that anyone who went and rode a solid amount of km's (say 300+ a week) for 6 months to a year and pushed themselves on their rides would achieve decent results. I don't even believe they would need to be training 'right'. No intervals, zone 2 endurance, vo2 max etc just simply km's on the bike where they are pushing themselves hard up every hill and trying to better their PR's.

I would love for a sports scientist to weigh in with their opinion.


No need for sports scientists, you are flat out wrong. Genetic limiters, or genetics as most people call it, "come into play" at all times. Such that many riders will never achieve even 3 watts/kg. In fact, after training many and being privy to the training of many more, I would make an educated guess that for every rider who can break 5 watt / kg, there is an other rider who will never break 3 watts / kg. You think any 70kg rider can have a threshold around 280 if they just put in enough work? Clearly you have never trained a non responder with a VO2 max of 41. There are plenty of them out there.
Last edited by: Dave Luscan: Jun 27, 15 7:11
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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I think your saddle height could come up a couple or three mm's.
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [NealH] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks everyone.

Keep the comments coming.
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [Jamie] [ In reply to ]
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Not an expert on swimming but did start late in age and have made better progress than I could have ever hoped for. I don't know how much you swim per week but in addition to needing fitness you probably have major flaws in your stroke. See if you can sign up for a clinic or get someone knowledgeable to look at your stroke so that you can know what to work on. And don't expect quick miracles but if you keep at it and work on both fitness and technique you can get way better. I'm still working on fixing technique flaws that were identified three years ago. Don't just swim long straight sets but do lots of hard intervals, 50s, 100s, 200s. Lots of good resources out there about swimming including this site.
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [Jamie] [ In reply to ]
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Who fit your bike?

I live in MA and have fit by a few folks. I got faster on same watts after fit with Todd at TTbikefit in RI.
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [KathyG] [ In reply to ]
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KathyG wrote:
Who fit your bike?

I live in MA and have fit by a few folks. I got faster on same watts after fit with Todd at TTbikefit in RI.

THAT ^^^ is probably another issue. NOBODY but me myself and I fit this bike. Trial and error and friends that are knowledgeable in the road bike world.

The trouble is I live 130 miles from any bike shop, let alone one that even knows what a tri bike is.

It may be a little late this season BUT I may have to make a pilgrimage to TTbike fit in RI.
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [Jamie] [ In reply to ]
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I know it's not that close, but my friend Doug Welling is a manger at Midcoast Multisport in Brunswick and could probably help with your fit.

Patriot is a great race that I've done three times - didn't do it this year b/c registration closed sooner than previous years. Will probably race it next year as I'll be taking a hiatus from IM and focusing on shorter races that are closer to home.

Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Nate. I will give them a call.
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [NealH] [ In reply to ]
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I did the Patriot as well. I found the swim was long ( spoke wirh 4 people with 920's. 3 said they got 1.35 and 1 said he got 1.3 miles) Bike was not bad. Few real tight corners at the bottom of hills to take away your earned momentum but other than that it was a nice day.
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [Ken66] [ In reply to ]
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Ken66 wrote:
I did the Patriot as well. I found the swim was long ( spoke wirh 4 people with 920's. 3 said they got 1.35 and 1 said he got 1.3 miles) Bike was not bad. Few real tight corners at the bottom of hills to take away your earned momentum but other than that it was a nice day.

Garmins when worn on the wrist in the swim can't be trusted, they usually read too long. Both my wife and I feel our times were consistent with a 1.2 mile course. It's not short though, the way a lot of courses are.
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