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Power13
Mar 6, 11 9:18
Post #151 of 254
(3184 views)
Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [Slowman]
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Slowman wrote:
it's wrong to state that these technical differences don't much, or don't often, matter.
i don't believe I said that. Overall, I agree with your post.
__________________________________________________
“I want to tell the world of cycling to please join me in telling Pat McQuaid to f##k off and resign." - Greg Lemond
jackmott
Mar 6, 11 9:20
Post #152 of 254
(3184 views)
Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [Power13]
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Power13 wrote:
..especially when the guy he beat in three of those races were on the same bike! Saying that it only further enhances your point is illogical.
You are going to have to formalize that logic for me, as I am not smart enough to grasp it given what you have stated.
Fabian on a P3C wins by 60 seconds or less over 2nd place who is also on a P3C.
My original contention was that had Fabian been on a 'bad' TT bike, he might have been 61 seconds slower and lost. That seems like it is certainly *possible*.
In my claim the only variable I am altering is Fabian's bike. I am not altering the bikes of everyone on Fabians *team*. Even if I were, how far away was 3rd place in those races? If 3rd place were ...nevermind
god damn I can't believe I am spelling this shit out. some people can just talk themselves out of believing anything. fuuuuuck
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Power13
Mar 6, 11 9:33
Post #153 of 254
(3169 views)
Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [jackmott]
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Perhaps I misinterpreted the phrasing of your original post. I thought you were saying that his win could be due to his bike and equipment. if the guy he beat was also on the same bike, than that variable is removed, correct? Therefore the difference was between the capabilities of the two riders. If you meant it as you just explained, so be it.
And I'm not talking myself out of believing anything.
__________________________________________________
“I want to tell the world of cycling to please join me in telling Pat McQuaid to f##k off and resign." - Greg Lemond
styrrell
Mar 6, 11 9:39
Post #154 of 254
(3162 views)
Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [jackmott]
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Their is one was that small differences in equipment doesn't matter, particularly if we are talking TTs and Cancellara.
The Protour riders have radios and following cars. Most of the time Fabian is a late starter and is getting time checks. The smart way for him to ride is just fast enough to stay ahead of his competition at the checks, that way he conserves his energy for the final push rather that burns out in the last mile.
Of course having a faster bike makes it easier to do that, but with Fabian I think he is going to find a way to finish a few seconds faster if he needs to, This all explains why he sat up and was celebrating crossing the line at either the last WC or OG (I forget which). He had to know he had it won or he would've rode through the line.
This is a pretty rare example though, most don't have the info.
Styrrell
Styrrell
(This post was
edited
by styrrell on Mar 6, 11 9:46)
ericM40-44
Mar 6, 11 10:41
Post #155 of 254
(3112 views)
Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [Power13]
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no, the fact that they are on the same bike is pertinent to the discussion.
Given both riders go all out to the finish line: Teammate comes in 30 seconds behind Fabian, both on the same bikes, as in the historical examples. Then, they theoretically do the same race, this time with Fabian on a crap bike that we know to be 60 seconds slower than the bike they were both on in first example. This time, teammate wins by 30 seconds.
Can you now see how Fabian might have lost one or more of his TT titles if he weren't on the best bike and best wheels at the time?
Can you see how Millar or any of the Garmin guys might have been in front of Fabian if they were on Cervelo instead of Felt?
Power13
Mar 6, 11 11:49
Post #156 of 254
(3066 views)
Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [ericM35-39]
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ericM35-39 wrote:
Can you see how Millar or any of the Garmin guys might have been in front of Fabian if they were on Cervelo instead of Felt?
No, I can't see how
any
of the Garmin guys might have beaten FC if they had been on a Cervelo (sic)* instead of a Felt....because not
any
of the Garmin riders have the TT ability that FC does.
*and it would have had to have been a Shiv in that example, but that is not really the point
If you are contending that the difference between FC and Millar was possibly due to their bikes, I think you are kidding yourself. But feel free to show me data that shows the difference between a Shiv (w/ no nose cone) and a DA is worth 1'02" over 45km.
__________________________________________________
“I want to tell the world of cycling to please join me in telling Pat McQuaid to f##k off and resign." - Greg Lemond
nealhe
Mar 6, 11 12:00
Post #157 of 254
(3055 views)
Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [Slowman]
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Hello Slowman and All,
The slower you go on the bike the more the improved efficiency of the bike system can help the you because you have a longer time to utilize the improved efficiency.
Nice efficient bikes are not just for the top 10. We can all benefit.
Bike system improvements are 'purchased speed' as opposed to physical training speed and probably should not be left on the table if one can afford them.
(After one physically trains to their maximum race day potential, additional 'purchased' speed gains within the rules and affordability will enhance the athlete's finish time)
It appears to me there is not a great deal of 'purchased' speed available for swimming or running and that is probably why there is so much chatter about bicycles.
Not on topic but somewhere I think you coined the phrase 'forward recumbent' for TT bikes. It fits.
Cheers,
Neal
Cheers,
Neal
+1 mph Faster
Power13
Mar 6, 11 12:07
Post #158 of 254
(3048 views)
Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [nealhe]
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Since when do bib shorts rank second behind only a recumbent on the "dorkiness" scale?
;^)
__________________________________________________
“I want to tell the world of cycling to please join me in telling Pat McQuaid to f##k off and resign." - Greg Lemond
yme
Mar 6, 11 13:16
Post #159 of 254
(3006 views)
Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [jackmott]
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Not likely, Like I have said before, you never hear a Pro-Tour guy say they would have been faster/won on a different bike. The bikes make no difference to the Pro's.
jackmott wrote:
Don't understand why it is silly. Those margins of victory are with the amount of time one might lose on some of the pro tour TT bikes vs a Shiv/P3C etc
That 2nd place was often also on the same team (and on a good bike) would perhaps only support the notion that its about the bike a bit too =)
Power13 wrote:
jackmott wrote:
Just so happens that he was always on one of the best bikes on earth at the time, and fastest wheels on earth as the time, so maybe he is not a good example. He might well have lost one of his TT championships if he had been on one of the far lesser frames.
Oh c'mon....that is just silly.
2007 Worlds - defeated Lazlo Bodrogi by 52'. Bodrogi rode for Credit Agricole, so he would have been on a Look TT bike.
2008 Olympics - defeats Gustav larson by 33" Larsson was on FC's CSC team - same bike.
2006 Worlds - defeats DZ by 1:18. DZ was on CSC at the same time, so again same bike.
2009 Worlds - defeats Larsson again, this time by 1'27". Once again, CSC teammates with the same bike.
2010 Worlds - defeats David Millar by 1'02". Millar was on Garmin, so would have been on a Felt DA.
yme
Mar 6, 11 13:19
Post #160 of 254
(3002 views)
Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [jackmott]
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Jack, you need to lighten up a bit, sometime others are right too, believe it or not.
jackmott wrote:
Power13 wrote:
..especially when the guy he beat in three of those races were on the same bike! Saying that it only further enhances your point is illogical.
You are going to have to formalize that logic for me, as I am not smart enough to grasp it given what you have stated.
Fabian on a P3C wins by 60 seconds or less over 2nd place who is also on a P3C.
My original contention was that had Fabian been on a 'bad' TT bike, he might have been 61 seconds slower and lost. That seems like it is certainly *possible*.
In my claim the only variable I am altering is Fabian's bike. I am not altering the bikes of everyone on Fabians *team*. Even if I were, how far away was 3rd place in those races? If 3rd place were ...nevermind
god damn I can't believe I am spelling this shit out. some people can just talk themselves out of believing anything. fuuuuuck
Tom A.
Mar 6, 11 13:45
Post #161 of 254
(3006 views)
Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [nealhe]
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nealhe wrote:
Not on topic but somewhere I think you coined the phrase 'forward recumbent' for TT bikes. It fits.
IIRC, Slowman attributes that observation to Steve Hed.
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
draketriathlon
Mar 6, 11 13:52
Post #162 of 254
(2989 views)
Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [yme]
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yme wrote:
Not likely, Like I have said before, you never hear a Pro-Tour guy say they would have been faster/won on a different bike. The bikes make no difference to the Pro's.
jackmott wrote:
Don't understand why it is silly. Those margins of victory are with the amount of time one might lose on some of the pro tour TT bikes vs a Shiv/P3C etc
That 2nd place was often also on the same team (and on a good bike) would perhaps only support the notion that its about the bike a bit too =)
Power13 wrote:
jackmott wrote:
Just so happens that he was always on one of the best bikes on earth at the time, and fastest wheels on earth as the time, so maybe he is not a good example. He might well have lost one of his TT championships if he had been on one of the far lesser frames.
Oh c'mon....that is just silly.
2007 Worlds - defeated Lazlo Bodrogi by 52'. Bodrogi rode for Credit Agricole, so he would have been on a Look TT bike.
2008 Olympics - defeats Gustav larson by 33" Larsson was on FC's CSC team - same bike.
2006 Worlds - defeats DZ by 1:18. DZ was on CSC at the same time, so again same bike.
2009 Worlds - defeats Larsson again, this time by 1'27". Once again, CSC teammates with the same bike.
2010 Worlds - defeats David Millar by 1'02". Millar was on Garmin, so would have been on a Felt DA.
Yeah cause that looks good for sponsors...Do you honestly think because you don't hear that from pros it doesn't matter??
"Well you see I totally lost that race because I was on a shiv instead of a P4, you know even though we are sponsored by specialized and they pay a great deal of my salary I truly believe their bike is a piece of shit. If they made a better bike I would have won"
If someone walked into where you worked and you told them, well our store really sucks you should go look over at a different store. How long do you think you would be working there? Just because you don't hear something doesn't mean someone isn't thinking it.
kluecke
Mar 6, 11 14:15
Post #163 of 254
(2967 views)
Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [Power13]
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Campagnolo has "Campy" plastered all over their development stuff, so I think it is Campy:
~Kevin
MJ19
Mar 6, 11 17:54
Post #164 of 254
(2867 views)
Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [SeasonsChange]
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Interesting. Does anyone know why the Quintana Roo Cd0.1 wasn't included in the testing?
MJ Slikas
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datemple
Mar 6, 11 18:28
Post #165 of 254
(2838 views)
Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [Barchettaman]
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Actually, my CD0.1 was a crash replacement from a Kilo. Crazy huh? but QR was getting rid of the old stock so I got a great breaking deal that I couldnt pass up which means it was WAYYYY under $2k.
It is not that I completely dont care (even though I do...to a degree or else I would not have read the article), but when it gets to that level of competition, it really is hard to justify to myself (and to my wife) to shell out that kind of money for a bike. For example, the Felt DA is what...$10K. For $10K I could get a good used Honda Odyssey for the family (which is what our next purchase will be). Now, testing and all WILL make a difference to me when i post sub 9 IMs and going for a purse as a pro, but by then bikes are given to me.
I know what you mean about seconds...I was 6 seconds away from breaking 11 hrs in IM W. Australia.
My entire thought process behind the OP was that testing is prejudice dependent on the researcher. Another company can come out and say they are faster than Cervelo and post number to prove it, but it is all dependent on the testing conducted, the researcher, etc. Which means that there are alot of variables that go into testing. The more variables, the more one can play with numbers to make their product look better than the rest.
This was not a slight at Cervelo, but to keep people aware of the prejudices that go into researching data. In order to obtain a more well rounded conclusion, one must view data from different sources and not a single sole source. Why do you think teachers made you have at least 5 sources when writing a paper?
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jackmott
Mar 6, 11 18:30
Post #166 of 254
(2834 views)
Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [yme]
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yme wrote:
Not likely, Like I have said before, you never hear a Pro-Tour guy say they would have been faster/won on a different bike. The bikes make no difference to the Pro's.
*facepalm*
Memorial day sale at ATC and Meet Pro Triathlete Matty Reed - Sat May 25 - Captex!
The newest tri shop in Austin - ATC 360
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
jackmott
Mar 6, 11 18:32
Post #167 of 254
(2830 views)
Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [yme]
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I've been wrong many times.
But I don't think I'm wrong when I take the position that drag affects pro cyclists too.
=)
yme wrote:
Jack, you need to lighten up a bit, sometime others are right too, believe it or not.
Memorial day sale at ATC and Meet Pro Triathlete Matty Reed - Sat May 25 - Captex!
The newest tri shop in Austin - ATC 360
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
trail
Mar 6, 11 18:49
Post #168 of 254
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Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [MJ19]
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>Interesting. Does anyone know why the Quintana Roo Cd0.1 wasn't included in the testing?
Not a "superbike" where "superbike" is defined as a TT bike with a crazy proprietary doo-hickey. (e.g. speedbottle, speedbox, fork/headset).
Also because tunnel time is expensive and Cervelo had to draw the line somewhere.
TriBriGuy
Mar 6, 11 19:16
Post #169 of 254
(2773 views)
Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [trail]
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Sadly, there was a time when QR probably would have made the cut. But apparently not today. I hope that changes. Or I hope that I'm wrong and QR had a situation like Felt's where they couldn't provide a bike in a timely manner or whatever reason. Or perhaps Cervelo was only interested in UCI-legal frames. The CD0.1 appears to be a strong effort and I'd love to see it springboard them back into prominence.
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Ahillock
Mar 6, 11 19:24
Post #170 of 254
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Re: P4 tunnel test- front page
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I know this wont matter for a tri event, however it is interesting to compare a P4 in the UCI-illegal setup with the P4 bottle against a Giant Trinity (UCI illegal), a Shiv (UCI illegal?, I am assuming they didn't get their hands on a team version?), Scott Plasma 3 (UCI-legal) and a Trek SC (UCI legal?). As others have stated, it is a bit unfair to test the P4 with the bottle (UCI illegal) against a frame that is UCI legal like the Plasma 3 or SC (but I guess the speed box is illegal so it wouldn't be legal in that setup).
It is interesting to compare the new Cervelo data against the Specialized data:
The Giant doesn't look that similar between the two. At 20 degrees there is a +/- 175g difference, 15 degrees there is a +/- 100g difference. Isn't that fairly substantial?
And those of you talking about SD/CI, at least Specialized/Mark Cote have been class enough to include that in some of their data. Just wish they would become more standard in the industry.
Ahillock
Mar 6, 11 19:26
Post #171 of 254
(2757 views)
Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [TriBriGuy]
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TriBriGuy wrote:
Or perhaps Cervelo was only interested in UCI-legal frames.
But the P4 w/ Cervelo bottle is not UCI legal.
But the Shiv production version is not UCI legal.
But the Giant Trinity is not UCI legal.
Seems like the SC w/o draft box and the Plasma3 just as it is are UCI legal.
TriBriGuy
Mar 6, 11 19:49
Post #172 of 254
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Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [Ahillock]
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"
it is a bit unfair to test the P4 with the bottle (UCI illegal) against a frame that is UCI legal like the Plasma 3 or SC"
As far as we know, Cervelo aren't using this data as proof the P4 is a faster UCI-legal setup. I think those who are crying foul assume too much...or at least incorrectly.
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wsrobert
Mar 6, 11 19:55
Post #173 of 254
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Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [jackmott]
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I find it interesting that you respond to everyone elses thoughts in this thread, except for Rappstars.
Thats all.
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psycholist
Mar 6, 11 19:57
Post #174 of 254
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Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [TriBriGuy]
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As far as we know, Cervelo aren't using this data as proof the P4 is a faster UCI-legal setup. I think those who are crying foul assume too much...or at least incorrectly.
Exactly. This data was published on Slowtwitch and written up by Dan. I suspect there's a rather obvious reason for that (desired audience).
SuperDave
Mar 6, 11 20:30
Post #175 of 254
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Re: P4 tunnel test- front page [Slowman]
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Slowman wrote:
"
there's a lot of utility in that post with the bosses that accept the battery. this, for the same reason as the speed box. you've got to keep your crap somewhere. if it were me, i kind of like the hide-a-battery underneath, with a felt crapcase molded around and into the battery-accepting-seatpost, attaching to it.
Hmm, I don't remember showing you
that
little bit.
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The New Specialized Wind Tunnel
Will this be a game changer for Specialized, in both sales and product design, or will it not move the sales and design needle versus those in Specialized's competitive set?
Yes, Game Changer
Minor move forward
Won't budge the needle
