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Overall winner in age group awards?
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What is the standard, USAT or otherwise. Does the overall race winner usually stay within the age groups awards as well?

Thanks
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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [Zippy303] [ In reply to ]
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The RD decides what they want to do. Also the athlete. I remember seeing Jamie Whitmore at a race win OA Female and pulled herself out of the AG awards.

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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [Zippy303] [ In reply to ]
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It really varies race to race. I've had a race where I was 1st amateur OA, top Master & AG winner to boot--yes, they awarded me for all of them. I don't think it was necessary, as I just raced because I heard it was a well run race. I've had other races where I've won the race OA, but was taken out of AG awards. Personally, I never race for plaques, trophies or ribbons. I've raced for some "titles" before but would have been fine without the hardware. I think OA should be taken out of AG hardware awards to spread the love. Just my opinion.
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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [Zippy303] [ In reply to ]
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No hard and fast rule, but it's traditional to remove the top3 OA (podium) from the AG awards. Same thing if they award top Masters.
The high-level concept is that no one gets multiple awards (spread the love)....and that OA placing > AG placing.

Many times I've "won" my AG only because the guy ahead of me placed OA. Likewise, I've placed OA and never felt slighted to get the 3rd place award vs. 1st in my AG*.






*Yes, there will be a lot of FDB on this thread.


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Last edited by: Titanflexr: Jul 16, 17 16:21
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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [Zippy303] [ In reply to ]
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Zippy303 wrote:
What is the standard, USAT or otherwise. Does the overall race winner usually stay within the age groups awards as well?

Thanks

I don't think I've ever done an event here in the Mid-Atlantic area (or otherwise.....mostly Florida) where an overall winner also gets an AG award.
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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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Titanflexr wrote:
No hard and fast rule, but it's traditional to remove the top3 OA (podium) from the AG awards. Same thing if they award top Masters.
The high-level concept is that no one gets multiple awards (spread the love)....and that OA placing > AG placing.

Many times I've "won" my AG only because the guy ahead of me placed OA. Likewise, I've placed OA and never felt slighted to get the 3rd place award vs. 1st in my AG*.






*Yes, there will be a lot of FDB on this thread.

Same.
I did one race, however, that I "won" because they gave the winner the masters award. I wish they hadn't done that. She was faster than me and should have been given the OA female award. I would proudly display an honest second place award, but I am embarrassed by that first place plaque.
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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [Zippy303] [ In reply to ]
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I just learned today at Door County Half that USAT rules forbid anyone in an "Elite" (and presumably "Pro" wave is not eligible for Age group awards but anyone not in said waves is eligible for OA awards. Kind of makes you wonder why you would even enter the Elite wave except maybe to get a clearer course with the earlier start time.
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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [Zippy303] [ In reply to ]
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I think it really depends... the races in my area pull you out of the AG pool if you win OA or Masters podium.

The Mid-Atlantic Championship for the Olympic distance didn't do that last year... If you were on OA podium, Masters, AG... you got a bunch of awards for each.

Did a race in North Carolina and you have to register for an "Elite group" to be in the OA/Masters podium.. I finished 3rd and just got an AG award.

Summary... it depends on the race.
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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [gphin305] [ In reply to ]
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gphin305 wrote:
Zippy303 wrote:
What is the standard, USAT or otherwise. Does the overall race winner usually stay within the age groups awards as well?

Thanks


I don't think I've ever done an event here in the Mid-Atlantic area (or otherwise.....mostly Florida) where an overall winner also gets an AG award.

Pretty much. However, at West Point you have to race "open" to win the overall. A few years ago a real stud showed up, crushed the field and won his age group and not overall. He won by a lot..... Really to bad for him (but cool for the other guy) as the overall award was a West Point Cadet Sabre and the age group was a mug if I recall. He came back the next year and won the sabre.
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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [happyscientist] [ In reply to ]
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I did one race, however, that I "won" because they gave the winner the masters award. I wish they hadn't done that. She was faster than me and should have been given the OA female award. I would proudly display an honest second place award, but I am embarrassed by that first place plaque.

That seems backwards? It seems like they knocked her down a level. Between OA, Masters and AG I've only ever seen them ranked this way OA - Masters - AG. So if you placed overall you wouldn't be eligible for masters or AG. If you didn't place OA then you would place in masters and not AG.
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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [Zippy303] [ In reply to ]
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Practices vary. I'd say leave them in, because nothing is more worthless than an illegitimate medal... I've numerous times just missed the AG podium, only to be moved into the medals because they took out guys in the top 3 overall... Unless the prizes are really cool, generally it's a crappy medal, that is even crappier because I didn't legitimately earn it... On the same token, at my last race, I completely missed collecting for my age group win (it was a crappy lanyard for my medal, so no big loss), because I assumed I had been removed after a 2nd overall placing and wandered off to the washrooms... They should at least announce their practices up front, so that athletes know whether and how long they should be sticking around for at awards...
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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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Trauma wrote:
Practices vary. I'd say leave them in, because nothing is more worthless than an illegitimate medal... I've numerous times just missed the AG podium, only to be moved into the medals because they took out guys in the top 3 overall... Unless the prizes are really cool, generally it's a crappy medal, that is even crappier because I didn't legitimately earn it... On the same token, at my last race, I completely missed collecting for my age group win (it was a crappy lanyard for my medal, so no big loss), because I assumed I had been removed after a 2nd overall placing and wandered off to the washrooms... They should at least announce their practices up front, so that athletes know whether and how long they should be sticking around for at awards...

yes, i agree its so insulting to get roll down award. if OA also won AG, they should either get the prize also, or it goes to no one.


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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [Zippy303] [ In reply to ]
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I've never understood the roll down of AG awards after Overall is removed. Give them 2nd and 3rd place. But don't pretend that they won the AG
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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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Trauma wrote:
Practices vary. I'd say leave them in, because nothing is more worthless than an illegitimate medal...


Well, I think all medals are worthless for the most part, so nothing different here. I already have too many medals and another one isn't going to be significant to me regardless. But at the same time,this is slowtwitch. I think the people who would really value a medal (even an "illegitimate" one) are going to be those people still new to the sport. As previously mentioned in this thread-- "spread the love"

Besides, no one makes you keep an "illegitimate" medal. Just toss it, or consider donating it through something like I Run 4 (IR4 - long term commitment) or Medals4Mettle (no commitment)
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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [racehd] [ In reply to ]
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I would agree that most of the medals I have are useless (the only one I value in any way shape or form, and it still sits in the same shoe box with the others, is the one medal I earned at a National Championship).

It's not the keeping part for the illegitimate ones either, it's the being dragged up to the podium for them... I guess I should just ignore my name when it's called, rather than doing the podium walk of shame...
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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [jb4iu] [ In reply to ]
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jb4iu wrote:
I just learned today at Door County Half that USAT rules forbid anyone in an "Elite" (and presumably "Pro" wave is not eligible for Age group awards but anyone not in said waves is eligible for OA awards. Kind of makes you wonder why you would even enter the Elite wave except maybe to get a clearer course with the earlier start time.


At my local races they award an OA podium. I was moved got moved from AG group winner to 3rd overall in a race last year. The guy who finished 3rd in AG ended up "winning" the age group because second place was awarded the Masters award.

My assessment is if you race AG you are not in the same race as the elite wave so you shouldn't be moved up to that category. The AG wave is not easier nor harder it is just different.
Last edited by: ajthomas: Jul 17, 17 9:22
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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [Leddy] [ In reply to ]
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Leddy wrote:
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I did one race, however, that I "won" because they gave the winner the masters award. I wish they hadn't done that. She was faster than me and should have been given the OA female award. I would proudly display an honest second place award, but I am embarrassed by that first place plaque.


That seems backwards? It seems like they knocked her down a level. Between OA, Masters and AG I've only ever seen them ranked this way OA - Masters - AG. So if you placed overall you wouldn't be eligible for masters or AG. If you didn't place OA then you would place in masters and not AG.
It was backward from what I have seen at other races, and like I said, I wish they hadn't done that. It was unfair to both of us. The race wasn't USAT, so they only had categories for male, female, masters for each, and relay. I did find her after the race when I realized that she had beaten me. Her masters award looked exactly like my OA award (they both just said first place), so we didn't switch.
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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [Geek_fit] [ In reply to ]
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Geek_fit wrote:
I've never understood the roll down of AG awards after Overall is removed. Give them 2nd and 3rd place. But don't pretend that they won the AG

Because generally if you're racing for OA you'll be in a separate wave, especially for Tris. So to make it fair and know who you are racing OA gets pulled out. Also at any race that has elite/pro they are racing as such so even though they may be 30 they aren't really racing in AG.

If it is a one wave race then it really doesn't matter which way they go, traditionally you can't double dips so they just keep going with that rule.

This does go both ways thought at some races. If you want to race for OA you have to start in the first wave so the leaders know there is someone else they are racing against.

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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
Geek_fit wrote:
I've never understood the roll down of AG awards after Overall is removed. Give them 2nd and 3rd place. But don't pretend that they won the AG


Because generally if you're racing for OA you'll be in a separate wave, especially for Tris. So to make it fair and know who you are racing OA gets pulled out. Also at any race that has elite/pro they are racing as such so even though they may be 30 they aren't really racing in AG.

If it is a one wave race then it really doesn't matter which way they go, traditionally you can't double dips so they just keep going with that rule.

This does go both ways thought at some races. If you want to race for OA you have to start in the first wave so the leaders know there is someone else they are racing against.

I agree, though I've seen races without an OA/Elite wave that still pull OA out of the AG and then give the AG awards to "2nd" place
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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [Zippy303] [ In reply to ]
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My experience has always been that there's Top 3 OA, and then everybody else gets whatever in their respective AG's.

At my local monthly tri club races, the top 3 OA are often all M50-54, so the "1st OA" in the M50-54 AG is really the 4th fastest guy in the AG.
But nobody actually cares all that much anyway - sometimes one of the other M50-54 guys will 'bitch' at one of the faster guys, if he does NOT place in the OA that race, as they get bumped down (or out) of the AG awards in that case.


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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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My experience has always been that there's Top 3 OA, and then everybody else gets whatever in their respective AG's
---

I'm actually surprised that it's different for other people. This has always been the system for each and every race I've done.






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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
Geek_fit wrote:
I've never understood the roll down of AG awards after Overall is removed. Give them 2nd and 3rd place. But don't pretend that they won the AG


Because generally if you're racing for OA you'll be in a separate wave, especially for Tris. So to make it fair and know who you are racing OA gets pulled out. Also at any race that has elite/pro they are racing as such so even though they may be 30 they aren't really racing in AG.

If it is a one wave race then it really doesn't matter which way they go, traditionally you can't double dips so they just keep going with that rule.

This does go both ways thought at some races. If you want to race for OA you have to start in the first wave so the leaders know there is someone else they are racing against.

I agree with this. In most races I do there is an elite race and an Age Group race. Elites usually self-identify and are allowed to go first into the water and they have their own race then the AG wave(s) follow. Two different races, so two different award structures. Although for smaller races it seems like overkill to have an overall podium of non-elite AG competitors. The AG podiums should be sufficient for the Age Group wave(s) in smaller races.

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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [Zippy303] [ In reply to ]
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As long as it is not an elite wave there seems to be no real consensus on this. I think if there is something more than a medal or award(like some cool swag) then the real winner ought to get whatever there is. If just awards, then roll them down and spread the wealth I guess, just an award that only the person and their family care about.

Just better not see in the paper some interview with the 2nd place person who got moved up to 1st saying that they won the race, that would be tacky.. I see it all the time though, people that win AG's and saying they won the race overall. Most lay people do not know any different, so kind of an after the race cheating..
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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
As long as it is not an elite wave there seems to be no real consensus on this. I think if there is something more than a medal or award(like some cool swag) then the real winner ought to get whatever there is. If just awards, then roll them down and spread the wealth I guess, just an award that only the person and their family care about.

Just better not see in the paper some interview with the 2nd place person who got moved up to 1st saying that they won the race, that would be tacky.. I see it all the time though, people that win AG's and saying they won the race overall. Most lay people do not know any different, so kind of an after the race cheating..

That's always been kind of a joke when someone gets 5th in their AG and then tells the lay person that they got 5th.... with the lay person assuming 5th overall. But, to frame it as cheating is an interesting take and one I won't agree with, but I'd definitely like to hear more opinions on that. I mean, is placing in a race primarily an emotional reward/goal-achieved, and so by representing yourself in a way that falsely increases that emotional award.... then the person is thereby cheating? interesting.

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Re: Overall winner in age group awards? [Zippy303] [ In reply to ]
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Zippy303 wrote:
What is the standard, USAT or otherwise. Does the overall race winner usually stay within the age groups awards as well?

Thanks


some here are advocating "spread the love" by taking overall winners from the AG ranks. unless there are those AG-ers racing in Elite or Pro waves, i'd say to hell with that. are we talking in snowflake-ese here ? make as many people as possible feel good about themselves and their non-winning performances ?

let's go further and give everyone an award. a participation trophy, as it were.

me, i've never podium-ed, and likely won't until i hit the 80-85 AG..... , but if i did win my AG, i would want to know i won it outright, not because someone who beat me got another award instead. just my opinion.
Last edited by: adablduya1: Jul 18, 17 12:14
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