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Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants
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Just wondering if anyone's had a chance to demo neoprene (training) shorts. Opinions? I know the Lava Pants are the longest of the bunch, giving more lower-leg lift. How about the jammer-style shorts? Do they come close to what a pull buoy feels like?

Roka or Blueseventy (or others) have similar construction? Durability? Comfort?

Thanks
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [m3bella] [ In reply to ]
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Roka sim are durable (I have a pair from the original release), very comfortable, and are much better than a pull buoy.

I run long on Sunday's, so Monday morning comes pretty quickly when I swim. If my legs are still cramped, I'll use the sims. I also use them for long paddle sets (2000 yards).

And they are pretty easy to put on and take off wet to use between sets. Just don't get too comfortable and wear them all the time. And you will get funny looks when you take them off and flop them on the deck and then take off swimming again; initial assumption from your lane mate is that you just lost your mind and decided to swim in the raw.
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [m3bella] [ In reply to ]
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I have a pair of Lava pants. They're useful for practicing the timing of a two-beat kick (I can't swim fast enough to keep my legs up with a two-beat kick) but otherwise I think they're garbage. Terrible cut (seriously, who thought that was a good cut?) and the pull cord tore part of the wetsuit material the first time I tried to tie it. Also, when pushing off the the wall, for me, it turns into a drag chute.
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the replies!

From the reading I've done, looks like all the neoprene shorts have a low cut. I don't understand why either. But, I just got a coupon for 50% off Lava Pants so ordered. Hopefully I don't have the drawstring issues.
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [m3bella] [ In reply to ]
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I really like my Sim Pro shorts. I use them one or twice a week. Like someone said, don't wear them every single swim.

I've have mine a year and they are in great condition. They are pricey so I need to get 2-3 years out of them to make it worth the money.
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [m3bella] [ In reply to ]
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I can comment on 2 of the 3 listed here. I've owned the Lava Pants and the SIM Pro shorts. I didn't like the Lava pants if I am being honest and since I shrunk when I had to revisit the idea I went with the Roka's.

Lava Pants:
  • To me the cut was pretty bad. I could never get the pants to go over my jammers entirely leaving them exposed and adding to "drag". Not a huge concern but enough to put me off of it.
  • As I mentioned I quickly stopped fitting in them around the waist and even with a vice grip like tightening they always caught water off the walls and sent a "wave" of cold water through my crotch area.
  • Durable and well made other than design
  • Too buoyant and gave too much assist in the pool

Sim Pro Shorts:
  • Tighter fit at waist but still low cut
  • boyancy is less but in the right area
  • Durable and well made (no seems rubbing)
  • Dry quickly
  • More subtle on the pool deck since they aren't capri pants

Overall I like the concept of all these but in practice so far the SIM has won me over. I use them every session but for what it's worth even if others indicate they don't. My goals may differ from theirs and your own in regards to that. I think you'll be happy with the Lava Pants if you got the right size. I find smaller size is the way to go since these stretch.

------
"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [integrator] [ In reply to ]
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Chlorine and pool chemicals are pretty rough on neoprene products, especially the seams.
Having been in the Tri wetsuit business for a lot of years, here's what I've noticed:
  1. Less is more. If you can limit usage in the pool to 2 times per week (instead of every workout for 1.25 hrs) pants'll last longer.
  2. Rinse with clear fresh water after every time you use them. Dry them inside out.
  3. Use wetsuit shampoo once per week, and make sure they get a good soak and rinse.
  4. Try using UV Tech, a spray conditioner/protectant from McNett.com on the smoothskin outside of the suit about once per month. Don't use on the inside fabric lining.
  5. Repair any little tears or nicks in the fabric or seams promptly.
  6. Keep out of the sun and away from heat.

There will still be fading in the fabric lining and also the smoothskin rubber gets pitted after a period of time, depending on how much chlorine is in the pool. I've noticed that the UV Tech really helps prevent this. Enjoy your suit!
KS

Karen ST Concierge
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [m3bella] [ In reply to ]
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Our SIM Comp has a 1" higher rise in front and back than both the SIM Pro and SIM Elite. It's also slightly more relaxed fit, to accommodate different fit preferences, so the same size fits just a little looser. Thanks for your interest!

Rob

---
rob canales
ceo + co-founder at ROKA
http://www.roka.com
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [m3bella] [ In reply to ]
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From a coaching perspective and in my experience, if you are an adult swimmer that wants to get better, don't wear them. They impact technique in a negative way and counteract the ability to build up an efficient kinetic chain in the swim stroke. Again, just the experience of a swim coach of age group and pro triathletes.

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
From a coaching perspective and in my experience, if you are an adult swimmer that wants to get better, don't wear them. They impact technique in a negative way and counteract the ability to build up an efficient kinetic chain in the swim stroke. Again, just the experience of a swim coach of age group and pro triathletes.

how do they impact technique in a negative way? You didn't really explain, but it sounds like your complaint with them is that they make people unnaturally swim faster... just like a wetsuit. They alter one's natural body position by bringing the hips to the surface, which I think is 'more correct' technique... but maybe I'm the one actually doing it wrong.

and what do you think of pull buoys? do pull buoys also impact technique negatively? seems like a similar effect... and what about fins? they make you swim faster.

"buoyancy shorts" are just another piece of training equipment. Obviously you wouldn't use a pull buoy for the entirety of every practice. Same with buoyancy shorts. In my experience, they simulate swimming with a wetsuit much better than all those other pieces of equipment... and you can actually wear them in a pool whereas a wetsuit is much too hot to do race efforts in the pool. They give a swimmer the chance to feel what it is like to swim faster and have your hips closer to the surface of the water - just like when you wear a wetsuit.
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [m3bella] [ In reply to ]
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I started using the Roka Pro and really like them. As an adult onset swimmer they have really helped my position. What I thought was good now I realize was not. In addition yhey improve the quality of the workouts.
As I improve then I will use them less but for now they are a valuable tool. However they are low cut but it doesn't really bother me. Very comfortable. Draw string is a must to keep them tight
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [m3bella] [ In reply to ]
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I'll confess to being an adult onset swimmer - started 8 months ago and couldnt even get 50m without gasping. Now up to 2.5km - swimming 1:47/100m.

I am extremely comfortable when OWS, but struggle like crazy in the pool - I suspect due to technique and this little thing called a wetsuit.

However I recently got myself some Roka SIM.

F***ing love them.

I'd say you would get 2/5 the buoyancy of a wetsuit, so it doesnt reduce leg drag entirely - just enough that it makes swimming in the pool "do-able".

The reduction in drag means Im no longer avoiding the pool, so am going to get more sessions in, more frequently. Also means that since I'm no longer concerned with drowning, I can actually focus on improving stroke technique and position rather than expending all my energy in staying afloat.

Ive swum OWS in them a few times and has averaged out to be about 3-4 sec/100m slower than a full body wetsuit - but on the plus side of not overheating, and it takes 1 second to get the shorts off in transition, rather than 30 seconds-1 minute.
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [odin99] [ In reply to ]
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in my experience, they allow athletes to relax the core which impacts the catch of the stroke and doesn't allow for the building up of an efficient kinetic chain. If you are looking to build a strong, core driven stroke then pull buoy, paddles, band and buoyancy shorts are the worst pieces of training equipment you could use. They all allow you to varying degrees to swim without the engagement of a large majority of that chain.

Second, I don't train the athletes I work with to swim the easiest swim (with a wetsuit), but the hardest swim (in the ocean against a current). What happens in a non wetsuit swim without that buoyancy you've been training with?

It's easy to take the short cuts. Especially when an athlete uses training equipment as a crutch and doesn't want to put in the hardwork to develop efficient technique with a powerful stroke. In my experience, buoyancy shorts are a hindrance and not a help.

Best regards,

Tim Floyd

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [m3bella] [ In reply to ]
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A PB still gives you a bit more buoyancy in my opinion, but I like using the SIM shorts because it lets me maintain the natural rhythm of my stroke as I can kick while wearing them.

Not that I'm training the house down, but I've had my SIM shorts for 2 years now and they are still going strong.

Mat Steinmetz

51-SPEEDSHOP.com - instagram - @matsteinmetz - facebook
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [m3bella] [ In reply to ]
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I got some Roka sim shorts about 3 months ago. I was afraid they may hurt my swim but I had an idea on how I might use them and wanted to give them a try. I'm only using them once a week the day after a hard workout when I usually have tired legs and have historically had a crappy swim session. I've been doing stroke rate work with my Finis tempo trainer doing sets like 3x10 minutes. I'm going with a quick stroke rate so it's a tough set, and I'm putting a lot of focus on my catch trying to use this as a day to focus on the front of my stroke since I'm wearing my cheater shorts.

I missed about 2 months of swimming last fall due to an injury and my volume right now is down over previous years, but I'm swimming some of my best times ever. I'd give the majority of the credit to the stroke rate work, but the shorts are helping me turn what has typically been a crappy swim day into a quality day. Usually on Wednesday, I swim sloppy and overall the set isn't very good which hurts my confidence. The shorts help me swim with better form and they're kind of fun so I look forward to wearing them. Plus they keep me warm, which is a big bonus.

My experience so far has been positive, but I'd say you have to be careful how much you wear them. Once a week max, I think, and you should use them to turn a bad day into a quality day. Don't use them just to try and make swimming easier. Have a purpose for them, and I think they can help your swimming.
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [m3bella] [ In reply to ]
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I have a pair of Roka's and can't fault them. I swim twice a week without them in my squad sessions, and then my other swims on my own I use them. Deep down I know that SnappingT is right and I probably shouldn't use them, but they have helped me almost enjoy swimming. As a result I've swum more, much more, and I've seen my times drop from 2:00/100 SCM to 1:40/100 SCM (for a 400 tt) in around a year (still exceptionally slow I know, but I'm trying to stay positive and focus on the improvement!!!). I want to now try and start using them less to develop better technique but they have certainly been partly responsible for helping me 'get over the hump' of hating swimming and not wanting to go to the pool. I almost look forward to swim squad now - something I would never dreamed of ever happening a year ago!!!
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I can see where paddles and buoys and fins don't help a swimmer. Or a 2000 yard pull set with paddles is going to hinder me. Definitely no good swimmers use pool toys.

Wait, what?

There is a place for sim shorts, as there is a place for paddles and fins. They are all tools, and when used appropriately can help get the job done more efficiently.

The roka shorts help you rotate, which a pull buoy doesn't. If you are a new swimmer and have not experience body rotation, then use a tool that helps you experience rotation, then you now know what rotation feels like and can try to repeat the feeling.

I'm not a fish by any standards, but I'm ok with repeating send offs on the 1:20 without toys in my masters class and I'm usually the FOP at most tri's. Toys have definitely been a huge factor in my swim, especially when coupled with a great masters coach.
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [prattzc] [ In reply to ]
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Glad to hear that it's working out for you. Keep it up.

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [m3bella] [ In reply to ]
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I have the Lava Pants and love them. Why?

*Because I know they're in the bag, I'm less likely to punt on a swim if I feel like poo - either before the swim or in the middle of it.
*Because of ^^^ I'm swimming more.
*Swimming more has meant that I've gotten faster.
*My only non-wetsuit swims in the past 6-7 years have been in Kona - specificity, baby.
*I feel they have positively impacted my stroke - at least the video and the clock say so.
*They're flat-out fun to use IMO. Lots of triathletes simply hate swimming - these can help you hate it less and then possibly swim more. See point 3 above.

I haven't found issue with the fit or design. But I'm not a picky bloke...but I've also not encountered any of the issues from other posters with regard to the LPs. I haven't tried the other products mentioned.

I understand that the views on these are quite polarized, but I have found them to be useful in my development and enjoyment as a swimmer.

FWIW, I'm 58-62 for IM swim.
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [rokasports] [ In reply to ]
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rokasports wrote:
Our SIM Comp has a 1" higher rise in front and back than both the SIM Pro and SIM Elite. It's also slightly more relaxed fit, to accommodate different fit preferences, so the same size fits just a little looser. Thanks for your interest!

Rob
This would be good information to add to the SIM Comp description. As I was browsing your website, I found it was a little difficult to understand the real differences between the 3 SIM shorts. I ended up buying Lava Pants a couple days ago, after getting a coupon code.
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
in my experience, they allow athletes to relax the core which impacts the catch of the stroke and doesn't allow for the building up of an efficient kinetic chain. If you are looking to build a strong, core driven stroke then pull buoy, paddles, band and buoyancy shorts are the worst pieces of training equipment you could use. They all allow you to varying degrees to swim without the engagement of a large majority of that chain.

Second, I don't train the athletes I work with to swim the easiest swim (with a wetsuit), but the hardest swim (in the ocean against a current). What happens in a non wetsuit swim without that buoyancy you've been training with?

It's easy to take the short cuts. Especially when an athlete uses training equipment as a crutch and doesn't want to put in the hardwork to develop efficient technique with a powerful stroke. In my experience, buoyancy shorts are a hindrance and not a help.

Best regards,

Tim Floyd
I think I understand what you're saying, Tim. I'm the OP, an adult swimmer with no previous swimming experience that can barely squeeze out 2:45/100 yds with a pull buoy. Going to the pool is demoralizing, embarrassing, and one big mental game each and every time. Maybe, if I keep using my pull buoy (or buoyancy shorts) then I'll eventually use them less and less. I'm referring to the crawl before you walk, walk before you run analogy.

I'm sure I'll get "looks" from the better swimmers at the pool. There's a certain clique in the tri community that likes to call out athletes that don't do things the way they do things. My wife struggles to keep a 13:00 min/mile pace while running, and has to take walk breaks. There's many runners like that and the last thing I would say is they're taking shortcuts and not putting in the hard work. One day soon, she'll be running 11:00 min/mile steady as long as she keeps training (which she does). Likewise, one day I'll be swimming 2:00/100 yds too.
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [m3bella] [ In reply to ]
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I grew up a year-round swimmer and once I dedicated myself to triathlon (18 or so years ago), I felt I was always in battle between building muscle in the pool and on the bike, the attrition of muscle during the run, and then my legs feeling like lead weights in the pool due to bike and run fatigue (just perceptually. otherwise, I have good balance in the water coming from year round swimming) I've been using my Roka Sim shorts for every swim workout since this past summer and I'm able to hit the pool hard and balance biking and running hard - they've allowed me to balance my workouts vs. the workouts cutting into each other. When my legs are fresh (as they will be for a race), I can go without the Sim shorts and be within 3-5 seconds of my 100y splits with the shorts. I feel like I'm actually back to a place where I can really work on my swimming - I'm back to doing big sets with 200y repeats on the 2:15 and 300's on the 3:30 (send off times w/ Sim shorts), where, prior to this past summer, my heavy legs and fatigued core would have really reduced my pace and volume.

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
Last edited by: milesthedog: Feb 25, 15 13:43
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
From a coaching perspective and in my experience, if you are an adult swimmer that wants to get better, don't wear them. They impact technique in a negative way and counteract the ability to build up an efficient kinetic chain in the swim stroke. Again, just the experience of a swim coach of age group and pro triathletes.

What if you just want to RACE faster in a region where all events are wetsuit legal? Would you still dish out the same advice?

------
"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [m3bella] [ In reply to ]
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I'm new to triathlon after 12 years of bike racing. I started swim training back in October and found that my legs sank, making working on form more difficult. So, I bought some of the neoprene shorts (I went with Zone 3 from the UK), You can really tell the difference in buoyancy in your legs, so I use them for long pull workouts (long to me, which is about 2000-2500 yards). BUT, I was advised early not to use them too much as not to become dependent on them. So I break them out maybe once every 4-6 training sessions if that much. Still use the pull buoy as well.

Another tool in the arsenal.
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Re: Opinions on Roka Sim, Blueseventy Core, Lava Pants [cshowe80] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, like I mentioned they impact technique in a negative way.

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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