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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [jenkinsbr] [ In reply to ]
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jenkinsbr wrote:
I just got back from a training camp in AZ and rode with a bunch of guys on Trek SC's. Needless to say, the trip made me realize my Felt B12 isn't going to cut it anymore. I rode the previous model Shiv and actually loved it so I think I'm going with the Shiv but am a bit naive. Can someone help me understand what the stiffer carbon will do if I decide to purchase the Shiv module rather than the Shiv pro? Are there other differences that I'm missing with the frameset?

The weight savings are the biggest thing. The SW Frame is around 1/2lb lighter than the pro frame. When designing the layup (order in which the different sheets of carbon are applied) the SW frame is able to use higher modulus, stiffer fibers that tend to cost more cash. The pro frame has similar stiffness but needs to use more sheets of less stiff carbon to achieve the same ride characteristics. As a result the thin wall tubes of the SW frame tend to flex more and provide a slightly smoother ride than what you will find in the pro frame.

ha, not that anyone is saying a deep section aero tube rides smooth!!! if you really want a smooth ride go throw your leg over a Roubaix!!!



Chris R.
Specialized Bicycle Components
PR/Media Relations
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [mile2424] [ In reply to ]
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mile2424 wrote:
I know the carbon layup was suppose to increase stiffness by 10% as well, and was "suppose" to reduce the weight by 10%. We know that the weight values have not been coming in lower and in most cases heavier than a normal S-WORKS. Not sure how true this is, but I had also read the following, "The normal S-Works Venge frame takes about 15-20 hours to make in labour. The McLaren frame takes upto 10 times that at 150-160 hours in carbon layup and optimization as well as frame finish and painting."


Hey Mile2424!

The McLaren really is a thing of beauty!

The McLaren Venge did make some big gains over the already brilliant S-Works bike. The weight drops over 100g! and the Stiffness to weight improved by 17% over the standard SW layup.

As for the production time, our construction method is called FACT-IS and it is an expensive and lengthy process. With that said, it is the absolute best way currently to put a bicycle together. By breaking up the frame in to smaller parts our engineers can focus on refining small parts of the frame for stiffness, ride quality, and weight. While this is a more expensive production method than the "Triple Monocoque" method that many companies use through out their line it really makes for a better riding bicycle.


FACT-IS break up of a new SW Shiv-






At specialized, we use the FACT-IS method in nearly all of our high performance Road, MTB, and Tri products. Actual hands on time for almost all of our FACT-IS construction bikes (from a base-level tarmac to SW Venge) is around 22-24 Hours. We are able to make lower cost frames like the base Tarmac by using more of lower cost materials, not by cutting labor time.


As for the McLaren Venge... it uses another world of precision. Actual hands on time laying up the bike is around 72 hours! almost 3 times as much as a standard frame.







Chris R.
Specialized Bicycle Components
PR/Media Relations
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [jbird2131] [ In reply to ]
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jbird2131 wrote:
How strong is the magnet? Does your straw stay attached to the magnet throughout your ride? Over bumps? Just curious because the one at our shop seems to be fairly weak in strength.


Birf2131,

Big bumps can knock the straw from the magnet. I have had the best luck by positioning the magnet on top of the extension so that as you run through bumps in only has to keep the hose from rocking side to side... not up and down. Gravity is our friend.


Chris



Chris R.
Specialized Bicycle Components
PR/Media Relations
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [CakeWalk] [ In reply to ]
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Hi CateWalk,

not sure to understand how you position your magnet. Could you provide a picture?

Thanks again for all this interesting information!
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [quickguru] [ In reply to ]
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quickguru wrote:
Hi CateWalk,

not sure to understand how you position your magnet. Could you provide a picture?

Sure thing.







Chris R.
Specialized Bicycle Components
PR/Media Relations
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [CakeWalk] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Chris,
Do you have some numbers on how much we can expect the small and large size bladders to hold when properly inserted in the frame ?
I can get about 20oz in the small bladder on the initial fill with some effort. On the fly, I can get another 8-10oz in it at time before i worry about it overflowing.
Is this what other people are experiencing ?

Thanks,

RG
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [CakeWalk] [ In reply to ]
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CakeWalk wrote:


The McLaren Venge did make some big gains over the already brilliant S-Works bike. The weight drops over 100g! and the Stiffness to weight improved by 17% over the standard SW layup.

Hey Chris,

The actual scales have been telling a very different story as to weight of S-Works versus Mclaren Venges.
Here is one McLaren at 1180 grams: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ntable;post=3816874;
here is another McLaren, in 56cm, with Di2 stuff weighing in at 1200 grams(Di2 stuff weighs 102 grams):
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/...t=98146&start=75

Interestingly enough 54cm S-Works is 1050 grams without Di2 stuff:
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/...=47679&mode=view

So the S-Works is the same weight when accounting for size differences and variation, if not a little lighter. I think one could make a case that the variation from claimed weights is to say the least disappointing. I know the paint is slightly different, but I'm not a fan of weighing bikes in a condition other than consumers receive them.
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [Runless] [ In reply to ]
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I think it would also be very interesting to know a few things about the process of the McLaren and where the additional weight analysis may come from.

I believe the McLaren layup is using carbon pieces or templates that are being precisely cut by computerized CAD programs. Whereas the S-WORKS is just hand applied allowing for some manual overlapping of pieces. This was my understanding when the bike was first released, and this was how McLaren worked with Specialized to refine the layup and minimize the overlap and excess weight where needed. If this is the case, I would guess there is very little variance in the weight of each "set" of pieces or templates that go into a frame. Any chance you can share the tolerance of +/- "X" grams per "set" of pieces for each frame?

Next, I would think there is some additional weight with the resin applied once the carbon is diced out and applied into the frame. After this, I would think you would have the bare carbon frame, and then would need to apply the matte black paint onto the frame, add the S-Works paint or decal and the McLaren logo, clear once again, and then add the rocket red McLaren paint on top of this. Is there a reason the red color was chosen as a paint rather than a decal like the tour bikes? Was there a reason the color of the S-Works decal also changed from the dark stealthy grey to a brighter silver for production bikes?

Does Specialized QC inspect or allow "X" grams of variance for a McLaren leaving the line or getting shipped out? How about for a normal S-Works? It would be very interesting to know if there were records showing all bikes produced, with weights, and plotted on a chart to see the distribution. Of course like others mentioned, this may vary greatly or depend on when these weights are measured, but it would be vary intriguing to understand the process.
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [CAnderson_SBC] [ In reply to ]
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Hi,

I am the happy owner of the new Shiv S-works equipped with Di2. I find it very hard doing a good looking Di2 wiring setup around the aerobars. Does anyone have good suggestions and pictures to help me??
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [Rasmus1310] [ In reply to ]
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Rasmus1310 wrote:
Hi,

I am the happy owner of the new Shiv S-works equipped with Di2. I find it very hard doing a good looking Di2 wiring setup around the aerobars. Does anyone have good suggestions and pictures to help me??




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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [mile2424] [ In reply to ]
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mile2424 wrote:
I think it would also be very interesting to know a few things about the process of the McLaren and where the additional weight analysis may come from.


I believe the McLaren layup is using carbon pieces or templates that are being precisely cut by computerized CAD programs. Whereas the S-WORKS is just hand applied allowing for some manual overlapping of pieces. This was my understanding when the bike was first released, and this was how McLaren worked with Specialized to refine the layup and minimize the overlap and excess weight where needed. If this is the case, I would guess there is very little variance in the weight of each "set" of pieces or templates that go into a frame. Any chance you can share the tolerance of +/- "X" grams per "set" of pieces for each frame?

Next, I would think there is some additional weight with the resin applied once the carbon is diced out and applied into the frame. After this, I would think you would have the bare carbon frame, and then would need to apply the matte black paint onto the frame, add the S-Works paint or decal and the McLaren logo, clear once again, and then add the rocket red McLaren paint on top of this. Is there a reason the red color was chosen as a paint rather than a decal like the tour bikes? Was there a reason the color of the S-Works decal also changed from the dark stealthy grey to a brighter silver for production bikes?

Does Specialized QC inspect or allow "X" grams of variance for a McLaren leaving the line or getting shipped out? How about for a normal S-Works? It would be very interesting to know if there were records showing all bikes produced, with weights, and plotted on a chart to see the distribution. Of course like others mentioned, this may vary greatly or depend on when these weights are measured, but it would be vary intriguing to understand the process.


I'd like to do our best to keep this thread on the Shiv, Mark and I have been trying very hard to make sure everyone with the Shiv or anyone with questions has an outlet for answers. If anyone has questions about the McLaren lets get that rolling in a new thread so the questions don't get rolled up in to the middle of this thread.


However, The best thing about the McLaren is how quickly the technology is trickling in to our other projects!

Working with the McLaren engineers we have started to learn new ways of analyzing the bikes, new ways of manufacturing, and new ways of improving quality control. Specialized does one of the best jobs in the industry testing our product. Between the in-house test lab and the nearly identical test lab based in our manufacturing facilities in Taiwan we're able to quickly get data and make revisions to our projects.


For most of our testing we tend to use "destructive" tests. This means that after testing a frame for strength or fatigue the product is typically scrapped. With bikes like the Tarmac, Epic, Ruby, ect... that's fine. We produce thousands of these frames and we want to make sure that we are testing frames straight from the assembly line. With the McLaren we are only producing 500 bikes world wide, that means we can't afford to break as many frames. The engineers at McLaren worked with us using "non destructive testing. They were able to show us a ply-by-ply analysis of exactly how each layer in the frame contributes to its over all performance. This level of analysis let us make fewer revisions and optimism the frame much more quickly than the typical process.


Along with the preproduction analysis, we also started using nondestructive means of testing quality after frames have been produced. After working with the McLaren team we have invested in sonar measuring equipment that allows us to check for wall thickness and carbon compaction before we destroy the frame. By measuring the wall thickness and compaction of the carbon we can ensure consistent layup and performance of every frame that leaves the factory. This technology is already being put in to use for bikes that will be available in 2013 as well as helping to refine frame lay-ups that already exist!


Really really cool stuff is happening. If there are anymore questions about the McLaren lets start a new thread, I love chatting about that bike. it really is the pinnacle of want ANY bicycle company is doing we are learning an enormous amount from them.


Chris







Chris R.
Specialized Bicycle Components
PR/Media Relations
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [CakeWalk] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Chris,

I started a McLaren thread...
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [chamblin] [ In reply to ]
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chamblin wrote:
Thanks jesse@thr for your initial impression. I'd be interested to hear more feedback like this. Now that you guys are starting to get some time in the saddle, is the shiv living up to your expectations, how does it compare to some of your other bikes. How do you guys feel this bike will do on a course with a lot of rolling hills (e.g., Kansas 70.3, Branson 70.3 etc.?

Thanks!

Last week, I did a 10 mile TT test course on a 3/4 mile loop with a small hill in 18mph winds using my Stinger 9s on both front an rear. Averaged over 24.5mph. Ok with that for March and conditions. I expect to easily be over 25mph when I get in race fitness, calm conditions and I'm more used to the bike. By comparision, I did a 6 mile TT last September on the same course in calm conditions when I was in top fitness (1 week before Poconos 70.3 race) on my previous TT bike and averaged 24.3. I did also upgrade the wheelset on the Shiv with Stinger 9s which were superior to the wheelset I used on my previous Tri bike, so this will play a big factor in speed.

Today I rode an easy 50 miler on hilly terrain (Garmin 905 tells me 4300 feet of climbing) with stock wheels on the Shiv. I do this ride to get comfortable in the aero position for long periods, but not to go fast. I have done this course many times before on my previous TT bike and several times within the past few months. I would say the ride quality was generally better including climbing. Riding in the wind seemed better, particularly a headwind. I'm still getting used to the bike, so was cautious around sharp turns at speed, particularly this time of year - lots of loose gravel. It took me roughly the same amount of time to cover the 50 miles with less effort. The standard Shiv wheelset are fine for training on a course like this, but they aren't made for racing. I would say the Shiv wheels are inferior to the training wheels I used on my other TT bike.

Other notes:
I shortened the tube from the hydration system so that it just reached the magnet on the aerobar as I've seen some others on the forum do. This worked well and I was able to get the bite valve in my mouth with no problem.
I plan to replace the bite valve - it is waaay too much work to suck water out. I'm pretty confident a camelback bite valve will work much better.
I did confirm that swapping between training and race wheels will be a hassle and require reconfiguring the brakes.
I did drop my aerobars significantly (removed both head tube spacers) for this the 50 mile ride. Still trying to find the 'right' position for me for long rides. It was very easy to remove the head tube spacers, but I need my LBS to cut the head tube down to size.
I did use the bottle cage on the long ride along with the hydration system, using only water in the hydration system. This was 'just enough' water for a 50 mile ride on a 60 degree day. Have not tried to refill while moving yet.

I'll post more as I learn.
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [jesse@thr] [ In reply to ]
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I replaced mine with a Camelbak valve and it works much better. Besides, They've been doing hydration a little longer than Specialized.
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [CakeWalk] [ In reply to ]
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Any other tips? I've got the bladder down the downtube, but it won't go in the last 4 inches or so. I've tried everything that I can think of and have had a few mechanics try too... same result. Are there issues with the bigger bladder fitting into a medium frame? I'm racing Oceanside in a few weeks and need to figure this out... Thanks!
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [renolaw] [ In reply to ]
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I'm having the same problem with my large frame. I shined a flashlight down there and there was a bunch of cellophane. I've been fishing it out all day. As if someone were using it as a garbage can. Might have nothing to do with the problem but I thought it was weird.

Same as you though. Can't get it in the last few inches...
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [JAA904] [ In reply to ]
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Hmmm, using the downtube as a place to store your trash while on a ride? I hadn't thought of that :P
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [renolaw] [ In reply to ]
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renolaw wrote:
Any other tips? I've got the bladder down the downtube, but it won't go in the last 4 inches or so. I've tried everything that I can think of and have had a few mechanics try too... same result. Are there issues with the bigger bladder fitting into a medium frame? I'm racing Oceanside in a few weeks and need to figure this out... Thanks!

Sure Renolaw

First make sure the bladder is flat and doesn't have any folds in it.



When you are inserting the bladder in the frame make sure that you aim the hose down to the downtube. If you dont make the bend it will bind up and not fit.



aim the hose afar down the downtube as possible as show here.



If you are still having issue send me a PM and we'll take care of it.



Chris R.
Specialized Bicycle Components
PR/Media Relations
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [CakeWalk] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks! I'll give it another shot and PM you if I'm still having issues.
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [bchambliss10] [ In reply to ]
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Bigger magnet "knog" is on its way. Will likely be in available as a service part early this summer.

Mark

--
Mark Cote
MITAerobike (ST, Twitter)
Specialized Bicycle Components
Performance Road - Triathlon - Aero
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [MITaerobike] [ In reply to ]
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MITaerobike wrote:
The Extension spacing is 110mm C-C and the stock ski-tips that come on the bike jog 10mm inward from each side (or can be swapped to go wider 10mm on each side). With rotation, you can get a pretty dialed fit.

There's room for a standard bottle cage or the X-Lab Torpedo. Here's a pic of my front end setup.

Mark


I like this picture and the one posted by Cakewalk on March 13th. Both show the aerobars coming inward, rather than outward.

When I got my bike from the LBS, he configured it outward and told me that is what the manual said to do - I would have thought that would be an optional configuration that I could have weighed in on,

In any case, my previous setup had straight aerobars, so I'm not sure what I want and at this point and switching the bars will be a hassle, so hoping to get a little more insight...

Is it just a matter of trading comfort for aero? Do you lose much comfort on the inward facing bars? Is the inward more aero? It would seem to be. Any thoughts would be helpful.
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [jesse@thr] [ In reply to ]
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My guess is that comfort would have something to do with the relationship between the aerobars and the width of the pads/armrests. I have my extensions in the facing inwards orientation at the moment with the elbow pads in the middle setting and am quite comfortable. I imagine people with wider shoulders who have their armrests wider may want to have the extensions in the facing outwards orientation.
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [Philosoraptor] [ In reply to ]
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Philosoraptor wrote:
My guess is that comfort would have something to do with the relationship between the aerobars and the width of the pads/armrests. I have my extensions in the facing inwards orientation at the moment with the elbow pads in the middle setting and am quite comfortable. I imagine people with wider shoulders who have their armrests wider may want to have the extensions in the facing outwards orientation.

Thanks - good points. I had my pads on the middle too, but measured it against my previous setup and decided to widened it to get the same width and feel. I then twisted the bars inward without switching just to get an idea of how it would feel if they were closer, and I can tell it will feel much better having them closer together (inward). I called my LBS and he wants to charge me an hour to do the switch. I'll probably do the switch myself since my LBS is 30 minutes away.
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [jesse@thr] [ In reply to ]
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It's a pretty easy switch and you should only have to switch the shifters and cables/housing to do it (not cut new cables or housings). Yes we did intentionally design these bars to go either way.

Mark

--
Mark Cote
MITAerobike (ST, Twitter)
Specialized Bicycle Components
Performance Road - Triathlon - Aero
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [MITaerobike] [ In reply to ]
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MITaerobike wrote:
It's a pretty easy switch and you should only have to switch the shifters and cables/housing to do it (not cut new cables or housings). Yes we did intentionally design these bars to go either way.

Mark

Thanks - yes a good design for sure.
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