Official Skip Gilbert thread (Page 2): Triathlon Forum: Slowtwitch Forums

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Official Skip Gilbert thread

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Sub

Sep 2, 10 9:49

Post #26 of 138 (4617 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [Slowman] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Thanks for the clarification Dan and providing some very important additional details to Skip's dismissal.

Regardless of the reasons Skip was dismissed for (unless it was extremely egregious and it doesn't seem like it was) there is a level of human decency that should be provided upon their exit. As you rightly imply, 6 years of tenure could be considered a lifetime for some ED's and there is a level of respect that needs to be maintained for a healthy, operational board to function.

Sadly, moments like this often indicate deeper cultural problems within the group of key decision makers. Here's hoping that the ship can get righted quickly and the triathlon movement continues forward.

doug in co

Sep 2, 10 10:02

Post #27 of 138 (4593 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [Slowman] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

"skip was escorted from the building."

I thought that was standard practice in corporate America these days - everyone I know laid off in the last decade was escorted out. It says to the layoffee that they are considered not just unemployable, but potentially criminal as well. Divisive and rancorous, yes it is, but it's unusual only at the director/vp/c-level.
I'm sorry for Skip, he seemed a decent guy.

toujourstri

Sep 2, 10 10:10

Post #28 of 138 (4577 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [Slowman] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Typically organizations are forbidden to talk about personnel matters. Many organizations have been embarrassed by high level personnel matters because they are legally obligated to be silent in order to protect the organization. They can't defend their decisions, while critics are free to speculate.

It is typical for terminated employees to be escorted from their jobs without warning--again for the protection of the organization (in this case, USAT)--in order to ensure the terminated employee does not have an opportunity to obtain data and documents with which to litigate against the former employer or disparage the former employer.

....assuming Skip was "terminated" which I don't believe anyone outside the board knows for sure, nor has USAT made any public comments regarding him being terminated.

Macho Grande

Sep 2, 10 10:13

Post #29 of 138 (4572 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [Slowman] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

So, wait, USTA fires the ED because he pissed them off fighting for the sport that has grown exponentially over the last 5 years, but none of which is his fault...

What a crock.

Sounds a lot like one person lead the coup and in the absence of a name, I'll call them Iago.

Bob

"If you have a dream, pursue it as hard as you can. The world needs more of that." - Jordan Rapp

Slowman

Sep 2, 10 10:22

Post #30 of 138 (4543 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [doug in co] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

"I thought that was standard practice in corporate America these days - everyone I know laid off in the last decade was escorted out."

i was fired by saucony. i was not escorted from the building. i don't think "escorting" is typical.

i think a lot more people are "fired" than you and i will ever realize. what is much more typical is that an executive is given the opportunity to leave with dignity. the reason you don't think this happens is that "firings" typically happen with a lot more elegance, and, you really do believe an executive left of his own accord.

i think an organization that, as a policy, makes executive changes by escorting their executives to the door is unlikely to acquire executives with the ease of the other organizations in their competitive set.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Slowman

Sep 2, 10 10:39

Post #31 of 138 (4516 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [toujourstri] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

"assuming Skip was "terminated" which I don't believe anyone outside the board knows for sure"

he may well "in retrospect" have resigned, rather than be "terminated." but he's gone now. and he hasn't resigned yet. so, draw your conclusions. i interviewed, at length, both skip and several board members. so i'm pretty comfortable in knowing in broad strokes what happened.

"It is typical for terminated employees to be escorted from their jobs without warning"

well, were i an executive director, i know that i serve at the pleasure of the board. if the board wants to make a change, colorado is an at-will state. there is no legal recourse that i would have, unless i'm going to contend i was terminated because of age.

what you're saying is that if i am hired as the ED for a non-profit, that there are three ways i will leave: in a pine box; because i resign; or i'm escorted out of the building, without the chance to address the staff. i would never go to work for an organization that did business under those circumstances.

don't get me wrong. i'm not saying USAT does business that way. but i think that's what you're saying. i reject your premise.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Bretom

Sep 2, 10 11:16

Post #32 of 138 (4482 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [Slowman] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Every business I've ever worked for (all 3 of them) have escorted terminated employees from the building. It is absolutely not personal and is not treated as such. As soon as you stop being "within" you become "without" and these organizations have obligations to their clients - not just to correctly judge whether you would use an opportunity to mistreat sensitive information but to proactively deny you the opportunity.

I'm not sure if this is a fair analogy for USAT but assuming USAT does keep some personal information about its members on proprietary databases I'm certain a significant number would be uncomfortable with the idea of a disgruntled ex-employee having any access whatsoever to that information. Now the board may believe the ex-employee to be a stand up guy who'll do the right thing but they do not have the luxury of putting that theory to the test - they are answerable to other people at that stage.

"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

Slowman

Sep 2, 10 11:23

Post #33 of 138 (4470 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [BJL] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

"Every business I've ever worked for (all 3 of them) have escorted terminated employees from the building."

that you know of.

"It is absolutely not personal and is not treated as such."

have any business you've ever worked for had a change in chief executive? if so, was he escorted out?

in any case, as i stated before, i'm open to hearing why this was a necessary exercise in this case. but i'd like to hear it from those who made the decision. as you might note, a little while ago i decided to remove the lists of those who, through interviews i conducted, i gleaned to be on one side or the other of this issue.

this, because i think it's fair to give these folks a chance to explain to their constituents (many of which read here) why they chose to act as they did over the past week.

i've asked them to give me those reasons over the past two or three days, few have, more will i assume (and hope) as they finalize their exit interviews, paperwork, whatnot, with skip.

i'll just to add that most of the folks now employed at USAT were hired and groomed by skip. i cannot think the ability to address the staff, to leave with dignity, was not available.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

(This post was edited by Slowman on Sep 2, 10 11:31)

aimmd

Sep 2, 10 11:52

Post #34 of 138 (4440 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [Slowman] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

dan, i have been in corporate america my entire life and it is VERY rare to escort someone from the building

Bretom

Sep 2, 10 11:53

Post #35 of 138 (4433 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [Slowman] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I'm really just playing devil's advocate. I understand the reasons why it's necessary to escort people from the building in my industry so I don't require an explanation. It sounds like the rules of the game are a lot murkier in this case so I don't disagree that an explanation is probably in order - I'm just spitballing what it could be.

To be complete my experience is from law firm partnerships and I have seen very few senior partner departures that were not voluntary (although many were controversial). Most law firm layoffs are of at will associates which raises few issues - expelling someone from a partnership (as opposed to pressriung them to leave voluntarily) is messier but on the one occasion I've seen it happen, yes the 65 year old guy was walked out of the building.

"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

Slowman

Sep 2, 10 12:08

Post #36 of 138 (4412 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [BJL] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

well, as i say, i'm teachable. i hope that within a week or so the folks on the board who do serve us will be transparent about where they stood on skip's departure, whether they were in favor of the manner of his departure, and what part they personally played.

i don't want to embarrass anybody. a lot of these board members are my friends, i have the highest respect for their service, most or all do not serve in order to further or to protect their business interests, and they're doing a job because they're either better at than i am, more willing to do it than i am, or both.

so, at face value, i'm disappointed in the execution of the decision, but, not necessarily the decision. i'm not going to second guess the board's decision to make a change, at least, not at this point. and i'm willing to hear why the manner of departure was as it was.

i'm 53 and, since the age of 25 or so i've been self employed, except for a 5 year period where i sold a company to saucony and they then employed me. then they fired me and i probably would have fired me too (two or three bad quarters and what else should i expect?). but that's another discussion.

my point is, i observe the corporate world, and i write about it, but i'm not in it, and i haven't been it it other than for those 5 saucony years, and, maybe 2 or 3 years in my early 20s. so, maybe i'm just out of the loop and i don't understand how corporate HR works nowadays.

but i do think that we are owed a post-mortem. we really have some august personages in the group that (according to my interviewing) decided that we needed a new ED. i do feel i ought to listen to their arguments, i hope they're forthcoming.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

h2ofun

Sep 2, 10 13:08

Post #37 of 138 (4348 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [Slowman] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Dan, my biggest fear based on some comments on this thread, and others over the years, is some of the elites might not have felt Skip was giving them enough attention and money for their liking. If this were the case, this, IMO would be terrible since w/o us AGers paying, there would be no sport.
And I sure have no desire to pay anymore for elites.

So yes, I do feel strongly each board member MUST provide the membership exactly how they voted and why. Otherwise, by default, they have something to hide, and should also resign from the board.

To hear they walked Skip out, unless they can prove he broke a major law, is an insult to our sport. I do not care what others did, this is our sport and how do we want to treat folks who gave given so much.

By the way, when I was let go from HP after 30 years, they did NOT walk me out. I was able to work for 30 days training others to take over my tasks.
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." � Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots� � Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html

Trirunner

Sep 2, 10 13:34

Post #38 of 138 (4307 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [h2ofun] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

"So yes, I do feel strongly each board member MUST provide the membership exactly how they voted and why. Otherwise, by default, they have something to hide, and should also resign from the board."

Dave, don't get carried away. It would be one thing for you to argue that the Southwest region representative owes you an explanation on his position since he is YOUR representative, but why would other board members owe YOU the same explanation? For example, if you don't own an elite license, should any of the Elite/Pro athlete representatives report to you?

Furthermore, to state that board members should resign were they not to disclose the reason for their vote does not seem fair either, unless it is a rule of their position description that they should be ready to do so on any vote that they take. Is there such a written rule?

-
"Triathletes are a fairly driven bunch and moderation is not often in their nature" - Jeff Devlin

h2ofun

Sep 2, 10 13:46

Post #39 of 138 (4285 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [Trirunner] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Who said me? I said membership.

It looks like the board might have done a lot of things that were not "fair" so yes, my opinion is this is our organization, with some folks who have been elected to represent OUR best interests. Just as Dan is asking, I look
forward to each board member justifying their actions. The more I hear how Skip was treated, the more I get upset. There, IMO, is no place for any board member who behaves on personal agendas. Now, maybe they have a lot more data as to why Skip was treated the way he has been, I am waiting to hear the full story. It just is not smelling good at the moment.

Treat others as you want to be treated. It stinks so far how USAT as treated Skip, and beat me up for sticking up for him, and USAT for not have a process, and maybe guts, to deal with this in a ethical process.

In Reply To:

http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." � Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots� � Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html

Slowman

Sep 2, 10 14:39

Post #40 of 138 (4227 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [Trirunner] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

"to state that board members should resign were they not to disclose the reason for their vote does not seem fair either, unless it is a rule of their position description that they should be ready to do so on any vote that they take."

in dave's defense, i don't think he's saying they're obliged to resign as a function of law or bylaw, rather that anyone who won't explain and defend or explain important votes is ethically compelled to resign.

i agree with your moderating tone applied to dave's thinking. i might add that we don't know whether dave's speculation about the elites, or their motivation, has any basis in fact or truth. we just won't know until we hear who cast what votes and why they chose to do so.

where dave is correct is that board members ought to explain their important votes that have a lot of impact on the running of the federation. and, again, just to be crystal clear, maybe i might hear the reasons why somebody decided to vote as they did and i might say, hmm, those are defensible reasons. i just would like to know the reason. i just renewed my annual USAT membership last week. i'm a 1/135,000 owner of the federation. i'd like to know why my representative cast an impactful vote. i hope i can get an answer.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

doug in co

Sep 2, 10 15:06

Post #41 of 138 (4196 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [Slowman] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

In Reply To:

My point exactly - executives aren't usually "fired", only employees are fired and get to do the perp walk. "escorting" is typical for employees, which is most of us. It's unusual only for someone like Skip.

Trirunner

Sep 2, 10 15:17

Post #42 of 138 (4193 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [Slowman] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

"rather that anyone who won't explain and defend or explain important votes is ethically compelled to resign"

That is an interesting angle, especially since from your article, an ethics question may have determined Mr Gilbert's fortune. I am no ethics specialist (ethicstician?) and don't have enough information on the obligations of USAT board members to form a strong opinion, but my personal feeling as a member, should my representative reply to such request with a statement similar to: "I considered all facts presented to me and made a conscience based decision on those facts" then I would find it hard to feel that he owes me more.

I agree that you, the USAT member, can ask questions and base your future vote on the replies that you are getting (or not getting). I am not 100% convinced that the motives of decisions made in a closed door meeting are owed to you, but I am willing to hear a strong case as to why they are.

-
"Triathletes are a fairly driven bunch and moderation is not often in their nature" - Jeff Devlin

Devlin

Sep 2, 10 15:37

Post #43 of 138 (4168 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [Trirunner] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

In Reply To:

I am no ethics specialist (ethicstician?)

Ethicist.

john

Driven by: Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: Racing Clean | Facebook: Racing Clean

Slowman

Sep 2, 10 16:47

Post #44 of 138 (4121 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [Trirunner] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

"I agree that you, the USAT member, can ask questions and base your future vote on the replies that you are getting (or not getting). I am not 100% convinced that the motives of decisions made in a closed door meeting are owed to you, but I am willing to hear a strong case as to why they are."

if as a board member i vote to (let's say) award a national championship race to topeka instead of toledo, but i can't or won't list the reasons why, other than to say, "i considered the bids and chose the one i thought strongest," what if your real reason for choosing topeka has nothing to do with the merits of the bids? if, on the other hand, you explain a bit of your decision making to me, then, i understand your thought processes, and, i also understand that you have thought processes.

but in the end you're right. if you refuse to explain the BIG decisions you make as a board member, then, my recourse as a member is at the voting booth.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

h2ofun

Sep 2, 10 18:25

Post #45 of 138 (4072 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [Slowman] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Yep, that is what I was trying to say, which is just how I walk my talk. Meaning, if I cannot explain to someone why I made a decision that I did, then it seems I might have something to hide and I should no longer by doing the job.

We know that some of our board members, from others opinions, might have some personal agendas, rather than a representatives agenda. If this is how they really act, I think the members need to know this,
and if they do not resign, then we can try to vote them out next time.

I really want to hear a justification on this walking Skip out. That is an insult. And how they could do something like this when it was not even on the agenda, Dan, I thought this was against the law. I know where I live,
all meetings must have the agenda put out to the membership like 96 hours ahead of any meeting. And unless it is a real real emergency, nothing can be talked about that was not on the agenda. So, I am waiting to hear
how what Skip "did", would justify their actions as an emergency.

Now unless Skip comes out and says on the record, no board member can talk about why he was fired, I do expect all board members to be on the record as to why they voted the way they did. I really want to hear what Skip
has done that was such that he was fired. So far, I have seen nothing to justify this type of actions. I hope it is not the but Skip would not give me what I wanted so I wanted him out attitude.

In Reply To:

ironjack

Sep 2, 10 18:31

Post #46 of 138 (4067 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [Trirunner] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

And that is exactly the point! The composition of the Board and the USOC requirements as presented in our By-Laws absolutely leads to the Elites voting their self-interests and not necessarily for the good of the Federation. There are less then 100 pros represented by these 3 Board members and over 135,000 age group members, not to mention at least 500 Race Directors. Yet for all that we have only 8 elected reps. Do the math, the Pros represent 33 folks per Board member, the other Board members represent roughly 17,000 members per Board member. Considering the USOC financial support of the Federation (in 2005 was only $500,000 and annual memberships garner well over 3 million $$ annually) the By-Laws with regard to essential USAT business and representation is flawed. In my time on the Board if I had voted in favor of proposals benefitting me directly as the Elites are permitted to do, I would have been removed for Ethics violations.

In 2005 I proposed with Dan's assistance that USAT separate itself and let the USOC develop it's own Olympic program and that USAT once again revert to it's original mission prior to 1996: Sanctioning races and providing safe venues for Age Groupers and non-Olympic Pros. Interestingly one of the items that infuriated the 3 Elites was the fact that Skip went to the USOC and actually got approval to expand the pro representation within the AAC to include Ironman and XTerra Pro athletes. Obviously this would have diluted the influence of the Olympic Elites who over the years have pretty much had the financial situation all to themselves. Please also note thru 2005 when I was the Treasurer and Board member, USAT age Group dues financed roughly 40 percent of the Elite Program as the USOC funding fell substantially short of the requirements to train and field an Olympic Team. Yet the Elites not only were able to determine the use of these funds but in fact had a say in the use of Age Group funds and programs. Is this fair, you tell me.

So yes, these Elites do owe ALL of us an explanation on why they vote the way they vote. I doubt things have changed much on the funding aspect so if I am paying dues and for the record mine are paid thru Dec 2012, then yes we have right to know all the votes and I believe that's why Dan successfully had the Sunshine Policy included in the By-Laws.

Jack Weiss

rcmioga

Sep 2, 10 18:33

Post #47 of 138 (4062 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [Slowman] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Dan--I'm pretty into triathlon but I have no idea what you are talking about. I've had dinner with Gilbert and Yount and the guys at WTC but I'm a bit mistified (and I did read your newsletter)!

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com)

Someday I won't be able to do this, but today is not that day!

JohnLines

Sep 2, 10 20:46

Post #48 of 138 (4002 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [rcmioga] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

The bottom line here is that Skip Gilbert was treated like crap. I don't know Skip but I've had many interactions with him over the years. He has always responded to me real time, night or day, with the best interests of USAT and our sport at heart. We didn't always agree, but we always had a constructive, positive dialogue and I could always tell that Skip had the best interests of triathlon and USAT at heart in his responses and decision making.

I wish I could say the same thing for the Board of Directors of what I know consider our pathetic organization. Closed doors crap and decision making without real explanation is beyond the pale. I am a lawyer and I won't even get into the ethics discussion regarding Skip or this Board. Suffice it to say that I side with Skip.

As a Team USA member I'm totally offended that some lame Board opted to replace the head of our organization right before the World Championships in Budapest and our National Championships in Alabama. I am off to Budapest on Saturday and I hope to do well. If I do as well as I hope, I don't want any lame Board member approaching me with a handshake. Skip can. You can't. You are losers and I have no respect for what you have done. When you wake up in the morning, if you and the constituents you represent can look in the mirror and respect what you see, God help us all. Perhaps it's time for those of us that are in the majority and are garden variety triathletes to form our own organization. Don't put it past us losers.

Trirunner

Sep 2, 10 21:13

Post #49 of 138 (3984 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [ironjack] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Jack,

Thank you for your interesting insight!

Can you point me to the description of each board position? You make a good case on why the Elite/Pro representatives should also represent each USAT member based on ratios. But if the Elite/Pro representatives are on the board to represent Elite/Pro athletes, then it would not only be their interest but also their duty to side on their own camp when decisions need to be made between age groupers and pros. If it is their duty to represent Elite athletes only then it might be a case where the blame should be put on the game rather than the players?

I also wonder, from a legal point of view, whether they are free to discuss those issues and provide the kind of details that Dave, Dan and you are asking of them?
-
"Triathletes are a fairly driven bunch and moderation is not often in their nature" - Jeff Devlin

LazyEP

Sep 2, 10 21:21

Post #50 of 138 (3980 views)

Re: Official Skip Gilbert thread [ironjack] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Like it or not, NGBs are supposed to win medals, preferably medals at the Olympics. Talent ID & elite athlete development then consume massive amounts of resources (personnel, $$$, time) in that chase for hardware. Last year there was research in the Journal of Sport Management that showed that NGB leaders believed "equity based on medals won" with regards to how the USOC operates. Having 100,000+ members is nice but when New Zealand has twice as many Olympic medals in triathlon as the USA, well then tensions exist. "Just win baby" applies to NGBs operating under the USOC's umbrella.

Speaking of tensions, there is a long history of volunteer boards clashing with professional staff. USAT (ne' Tri-Fed) has had more than its fair share of experience in this area. These types of challenges go back to when Mark Sisson was first hired as the ED after the "Great Chicago Fire" that brought him into the fold.

A variety of academic research, both in fields of management & sport management, demostrate these tensions. Add to the mix an organization having to serve two masters, USOC & the general memberships, each with competing interests, & it's little wonder these situations don't happen more often. Back in the late '80s, David Prouty, the first professional ED for the USCF, wrote a book called In Spite of Us. It tells the tale of a professional staff often clashing with a volunteer board about the direction of the NGB. Those who fail to understand history are doomed to repeat it.
Sean Phelps
Those who can tri. Those who can't du. Those who won't cycle.

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