I might start going to T/TH track at Reid Park. Nice 799m dirt track, or is it 801m can't remember. Plenty of fast people to push you along, faster than 5:00.
I was getting blown off the back of the fast group running 5:40 mile repeats in the spring.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I've considered a similar goal (not <5 since I'm 57) and I've collected the following stories which may be helpful and/or entertaining -

http://www.multisports.com/news/1264147046.shtml
http://www.runnersworld.com/rt-web-exclusive/under-500-at-50


I've yet to commit to the goal since I've been scared what the radical reverse periodization would mean for my next triathlon season.


Good luck!

"The goal for next year is a top 10 AG finish at Kona. "

I guess it depends on how much risk you want to take going for the 5:00 mile when your primary goals is to go top 10AG at Kona.

Jack Daniels Running Formula, 1500-3000m plan. 6 weeks to bring your VDOT up another point, and put you at a 5:03 mile. With the chance you'll get injured.

And you can't even being to imagine how ludicrous it is for me to be offering advice on achieving a top 10 WC finish!

I'm doing the 5K cookie cutter plan from Daniels running formula to work on run speed.

I've got another 3 weeks of easy running to get my volume back, then it's two to three interval runs a week (plus easy runs) for the next 18 weeks.

Of course I'll adapt it to my current abilities and stay cautious.

After that I've got another 18 weeks of a previously successful plan for next season

I'm working on the 5K to 15K plan

I will say.... knock on wood.....that I am NOT injury prone....

Accident prone - Yes
Injury prone- No

I will take this under advisement though.

I need a sub 9:30 Kona finish (on a windy day) to guarantee a top 10 in the 45-59. I have a 50 swim and a 5:05 bike (with high wind). I need a 3:25 run.

I could do the 3:25 run with perfect execution.
Or ...... I could improve my run and give myself some wiggle room.

I don't think that standard "run fitness" will do it.
I need to address the elephant in the room.
I need to deal with the lack of basic speed.

Totally interested to hear how this goes if you decide to try it. The fastest I got was I think 5:07 a few years ago when I was doing much more track work, and I'm nowhere near as fast as you at longer distance (1:27 HM). I think you can do it.

Gotcha. I say it only because while I should not be dispensing advice to you on running fast, I have dedicated three different episodes flying back from Kona to creating beautiful plans to all-out autumn assaults on run speed, and then spent Nov-Dec rehabbing a completely new or unique injury. Again, I recognize we're in a totally different class, but if you're planning this campaign right on the heels of your race on Saturday, and rushing into what is a pretty intense endeavour, I think even the best of us could be crusin' for a bruisin'.

postscript: while Daniels is obviously great, this 2004 piece by Dan Empfield is one I referred to over a number of years, and has actually been more useful in some ways. Read both parts.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...Your_10k_PR_258.html

I was the same way until I turned........45. I'm working on recovering from an annular tear of the L5/S1 disc. Running is tough, prior to the injury I was a 1:21 half-marathoner, so I'm definitely interested in following your journey to regain some top end speed.

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The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody

When was your 1:20 half marathon? I'm surprised you can't run a 3:25 if that result was recent. My guess is your over biking a bit for your bike fitness. How many hours on the bike to you train on average? How is this broken up?

Sounds like a great way to get hurt so the most important thing to consider is that your glutes/core need to be strong like a bull coming out of a couple of recovery weeks post tri season. Before you start adding intensity, I would youtube glutes and core strength for runners. 20 different ways to skin that cat just make sure you pick a couple and stay consistent with it.

The second thing to consider is that your really going to have to buy into Polarization training and put a reign on that top 10 ego kona thing (keep the ego cuz you gotta believe in yourself but just keep it check). When you have easy runs they need to be damn easy because your going to have a hard day once a week and its going to be hard.

A 4:59 min mile still has a ton of Aerobic systems that are being used so go ahead a bump that weekly mileage up from 55 miles to 70 miles. 8-9 min/mile trail running is therapeutic as hell so given the current election environment find some good ass tunes and go zen it out on a daily basis. Creating run streaks (ex.100 runs/100 days) can be highly effective in both momentum and daily motivation as long as you don't go over the top and go for a run with full blown strep throat in the middle of a blizzard.

In terms of pace/intensity there are only really two ways to skin that cat. You can either use heart rate or you can use pace by using a jack daniels vdot or a mcmillan calculator. Please do understand that HR is an input and pace is an output so from a physiological scientific understanding, one method makes a hell of a lot more sense than the other method. But also take into account that running is a lot more Art than it is science given the differences of individual responses to workloads or stress. Over the last 10 years of lurking on slowtwitch I have found a correlation that left brained humans (Scientist, Engineers, mathematicians, people that can focus like a mofo) gravitate towards pace/FTP and right brained humans (Artist, musicians, people with high levels of ADD) gravitate towards HR or Perceived Exertion (which can be highly effective but your training like Ray Charles and have no idea where your going until you get there)

Point of the rambling of the above paragraph. Find out which pacing method your like and buy into it.

4th thing to consider is to understand that Earth still has a very strong gravitational pull from the moon. If you truly want to run faster, prob the most effective/easiest/safe way to do it is to stop eating at your moms/mums house. 2-5 pounds could easily be the difference in 9 seconds. Also in regards of the gravity thing, take into account the weight of running shoes as well. Unless you have the running bio mechanics of an elephant you should never race in a shoe that weighs over 7 ounces.

The last piece of the puzzle is speed work. Go find a track and get there once a week. Track workouts follow a golden rule that with more intensity you get more recovery. For the first few weeks I would focus on mile repeats with shorter recover time. Ease into these things. Running sub 5's is a lifestyle not a fad diet. Once you have done a couple of mile repeat sessions around half marathon/10K race pace with 90 seconds recover and the legs feel healthy with no pain then gently work your way down to 800's around 5K pace or a bit faster with 2 mins rest. Once this feels great after a few weeks then maybe throw in some 400's workouts at 4:59 pace with 3 mins rest. etc etc.

Just make sure the track work progression makes common sense and listen to your body for clues that you may be getting to aggressive. No matter how good the first date goes, its always safer to send her a funny text three days later than showing up to her front door the next morning with a dozen roses and a teddy bear saying I love you.

To sum everything up I kinda believe until proven different that there are only three ways to run faster/more efficient. Lose weight, run more, or run faster. Well you could also make a case that biking more could make you a better runner but now we are really gravitating into the Art of Triathlon and Michael Jackson's dream of this world not mattering if your black or white would become closer to reality. The first way is the easiest/safest unless your mom/mum makes a killer meatloaf, run more is pretty damn safe as long as you check the ego at the door, and then running faster which is more dangerous than being in the same town with Jim Cantore when a Hurricane is going on.

Hope this helps. Cheers

Yeah.
I am definitely overbiking.
And I could probably handle more intensity and more volume on the bike.
During IM training, on hard weeks, I do about 8 hrs of cycling. (With 1-2 hours being "hard").
(I will concentrate on improving my bike starting in January).

The 3:25 IS possible at Kona WITH perfect execution.
And/or stronger bike fitness.

But something ALWAYS goes wrong.
It would be great if I could swing 3:25 run WITH problems.

And if things went perfect maybe I could get top 5 and run 3:15.

Honestly, I would forget the running super fast approach in 9 weeks. I know your not injury prone but this might make you injury prone. I would work that bike hard this off-season. Do lots of Vo2 work and increase your time on the saddle to 12-14hrs a week if you have time. You already have the run fitness to run 3:25 or faster (even in Kona). You need to get stronger on the bike

Looks like you are already there, and then some.

1:20 half marathon speed won't get you under 5 min for the mile, especially if you are a "slow runner". I broke 5 min for the mile when I was your age, but I could run the half in 1:13 then. I would drop running sub 5 as a goal because it is unrealistic and will more than likely get you injured at this stage of your career. It also is unlikely to help your triathlon goal.

Beat me to it!

Honestly- I was hoping that trying to run a sub 5:00 min/mile would involve training like a highschool kid.
(Haphazard, low volume, some hard but short intervals, a few form drills and a bit of sprinting).

Some of you are making it sound more like trying to win the western states 100 - with the comments about loosing weight, doing high mileage and injuries.

This might be the "correct" approach for Kona.

But importantly, I feel I need a break from long, slow, boring workouts. And cycling is the worst culprit.

Maybe what I need is to plan on doing a multi-day stage race or something?

I was a college swimmer.
And my slow running is NOT improving.
My cycling is still improving though.
Maybe I should go with that and see where it leads.....

You have the mileage, you need the speed.

For track workouts:
10X200 all out (probably 30-31) (200 walk rest)
6X400 in 70 (400 easy jog rest)
4x800 in 2:30 (400m walk rest)
5:15 mile run 80-80-80-75

Each of these are very short, very intense workouts. The emphasis is on speed and long recoveries so that you are reasonably recovered for each repeat. They are a good first workout, with another longer workout easier in the day. Of course each has a warmup/coodown as well.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

good for you for having a goal and putting it out there. You've got some interesting and conflicting input. I did a similar thing a while back and kept a spreadsheet of my key workouts. (you can PM me and I'll email it to you).

A key question is: have you broke 5 before??? it makes a difference if you can hang your hat on knowing you've done it before.

A few key things that I did might help you. In post 18 Jim says that he ran a 73 min HM on a sub 5. That's awesome - I never ran a half in my prime so I can't relate. Here goes...

~age 22 for fun at an all comers meet I did 4:40 for a mile/1,600 (never ran XC or track, but did serious running, 10k's and stuff like that, PR 33:35)

at age 33 I decided to try to break 5 again. Note: I never stopped running - did tris, and MTB racing.

Also note: I have like 0% fast twitch muscle fibers (picture the springiness of a snail!)

Started in Late February with hard 4k efforts to build a solid base. In May had 200's in around 29 seconds w/1k's just under 3 min.

In June got the 200's down to 28. a few weeks later went 4:58 for 1,600. In August went 4:56 and 4:54. (did the 1,600's at all comers meets - which I highly recommend). I did a all comers track 5k (for fun?) a few weeks later in 17:02 which I wasn't thrilled with.

Relevant to you. I did a look back to when I was 45 (I'm almost 55 now) to see if I could have broken 5. Much to my surprise, I think it might have been possible - but, I would have had to put everything into it and also would have needed some luck.

I wish you the best. You should know that if you can avoid injury your running will benefit. It would be fun if you could do an update or two on your progress.

Enjoy the journey. I appreciate the inspiration of your successes (Kona, and this goal)
keith

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

Everyone will have different recommendations and in truth there are multiple ways to get below 5. I've gone sub 5 at multiple times between the age of 15 and 32. Some of those times I was doing 10-15 mpw (mostly when I was young) and some when I was doing 50-60 mph (in my early 30's). So that said here are my recommendations:

-Do a mile time trial right now to see where you are at.
-Given your endurance background I don't see any reason to run more than 40 mpw. You have the base endurance so what you need is quick turnover and the ability to handle pain. Running a fast mile hurts - you will want to puke and feel like your chest is going to explode.
-Do an threshold type run (i.e. 1 mile wu, 3 miles at pace, 1 mile cd) once a week.
-Do track work once a week. Intervals should be a mile long at most. But thing like 400 or 800 repeats (at a sub 5 minute pace) or a ladder like 400/800/1200/800/400 etc. you can find recs online on how fast these should be given your goal.
-If possible, do your track workouts with others (hopefully fast runners), that will help you pace, push hard and stay on top of your interval times. Whenever I'm with a group I always tend to run faster with less RPE.
-Have "pacers" or do your attempt in a race or with others.
-Don't have a full stomach, pick a day with good weather (no wind! And if possible, 50-60 degrees)

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Matt

Lets say:
1) I shorten my weekly long run to 10 miles
2) I shorten and make easier my weekly tempo 5 miles
3) Do 1 or 2 interval sessions like you suggest.
4) And a couple of short easy runs. (3 miles)

Wouldn't that be less training stress than what I am currently doing?
Would that lead to injury?

I am asking because I don't know...

Seems like foot and calf tendonitis (my biggest worry) is caused by running repetitively uphill or on a treadmill. Not by running fast.