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Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd?
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I was passed by a guy and everyone in the area didn't seem to care at all. Just wondering if this was just a ploy....

http://www.TriScottsdale.org
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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [Sbernardi] [ In reply to ]
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I finished 10th in the pro race in was DQd for exceeding the limit by 0.2mph ... NOT a ploy

@GrizzlyBaird | Strava | Website
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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [Sbernardi] [ In reply to ]
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I was passed in both "no passing" zones as well, but I've heard of a few people who were dq'd. They were definitely enforcing the speed limit, but it didn't seem so much with the "passing".
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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [GrizzlyBaird] [ In reply to ]
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WOW!! Sorry man. That sucks. I really really slowed down. Not sure of speed tho. Wish they would post that in the splits. When did they tell you?

http://www.TriScottsdale.org
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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [Sbernardi] [ In reply to ]
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I wasn't told, my results went from being included to all zeros. I checked with the head officials after the race to get confirmation and to analyse the timing of the segment. The officials were sympathetic but had to enforce the stated limits. They spent a long time going through the segment times with me and making their rationale very clear. In total, one other pro was disqualified and I believe 33 AGers were as well.

To be fair to the officials, they were very clear on the limits and had to enforce the letter of the law the put down despite those of use who were DQd being a hair over. I didn't see the first speed check sign (did any others?) and only had the second one midway through the zone to gauge my speed and slow down accordingly, but apparently not enough. Does it suck, yes. But at the end of the day, it was very clear and was my responsibility to be more cautious in that section. My race may not be official on paper, but I'm still very happy with how I raced and am excited for the rest of the season. Live and learn!

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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [Sbernardi] [ In reply to ]
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Sbernardi wrote:
I was passed by a guy and everyone in the area didn't seem to care at all. Just wondering if this was just a ploy....
There were 38 DQ's from the speed zone. There was only one real nutter - an age-grouper did 42 mph (25 mph age-grouper max) and passed three other riders in the zone. There were 2 pro's DQ'd unfortunately. GrizzlyBaird (37.22 mph in the 35 mph pro zone) and one other were just under the minimum time. Nothing egregious but they were under the absolute cut-off time for a DQ - which did have a small grace buffer built-in.

Sylvan Smyth | http://www.sportstats.asia | sylvan@sportstats.asia | Starvas
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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [GrizzlyBaird] [ In reply to ]
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I think you should fight them in this. On the bike course page in the athlete guide it states:

"On the bike course at approximately mile 43 during the descent on Basillone Road, there is a clearly defined “25 MPH SPEED LIMIT”"

In the race this speed zone was at mile 37 if I remember correctly. I don't think they can DQ you when they didn't even follow the information provided to athletes before the race. Let me know how WTC responds to this.
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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [sylvan] [ In reply to ]
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There was a slight non-controversy because it looked like Sanders pulled away from the Frodeno/Potts/McMahon group close behind him while in the speed zone. And he did - he went from 8.5 seconds ahead to 10 seconds ahead. But they were all way under the limit. Sanders did about 31 mph and the others did 29-30. That group was amongst the slowest of all the pro's, most of whom did 32-35.

Sylvan Smyth | http://www.sportstats.asia | sylvan@sportstats.asia | Starvas
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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [sylvan] [ In reply to ]
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i'm not arguing, and i'm not disagreeing, but i am interested: it seems as if pros had a 35mph top speed and AGers a 25mph top speed, in that zone. yes? if so, what's the argument in favor of different speeds?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Mar 29, 15 9:40
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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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My thoughts exactly. But less congestion in the pro race I'm guessing, although I was alone on that stretch after starting at 7:32a. Have to play least common denominator.....

http://www.TriScottsdale.org
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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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it seems as if pros had a 35mph top speed and AGers a 25mph top speed, in that zone. yes? if so, what's the argument in favor of different speeds? //

I would venture a guess that it would be the same as if you went to Daytona and got to race in a real race car. They would let you go only so fast, vs what they would let an Andretti go.
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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i'm not arguing, and i'm not disagreeing, but i am interested: it seems as if pros had a 35mph top speed and AGers a 25mph top speed, in that zone. yes? if so, what's the argument in favor of different speeds?

Surely have 2 limits with such a great difference in itself creates a danger that I presume the speed limit is trying to avoid ?

Have they been some previous bad crashes as to why there is a speed limit ?

Maybe electronic speed signs may help confirm how fast people are going

Pretty tough DQ'ed going 0.2 mph over the limit
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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i'm not arguing, and i'm not disagreeing, but i am interested: it seems as if pros had a 35mph top speed and AGers a 25mph top speed, in that zone. yes? if so, what's the argument in favor of different speeds?
Yes. Lower density of athletes in the zone.

Sylvan Smyth | http://www.sportstats.asia | sylvan@sportstats.asia | Starvas
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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [Sbernardi] [ In reply to ]
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I was passed in the 25 mph no-pass zone. I don't know if the dude was DQ'd or not. I think a no-passing zone there is fine, but a speed zone is more unsafe IMO. I was looking down at my speedometer more than I was watching the road...not a good thing.
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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [GrizzlyBaird] [ In reply to ]
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GrizzlyBaird wrote:
I wasn't told, my results went from being included to all zeros. I checked with the head officials after the race to get confirmation and to analyse the timing of the segment. The officials were sympathetic but had to enforce the stated limits. They spent a long time going through the segment times with me and making their rationale very clear. In total, one other pro was disqualified and I believe 33 AGers were as well.

To be fair to the officials, they were very clear on the limits and had to enforce the letter of the law the put down despite those of use who were DQd being a hair over. I didn't see the first speed check sign (did any others?) and only had the second one midway through the zone to gauge my speed and slow down accordingly, but apparently not enough. Does it suck, yes. But at the end of the day, it was very clear and was my responsibility to be more cautious in that section. My race may not be official on paper, but I'm still very happy with how I raced and am excited for the rest of the season. Live and learn!

Awesome attitude. Best of luck in your upcoming races!
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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [sylvan] [ In reply to ]
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"Yes. Lower density of athletes in the zone."

i thought you might say that. but i guess i question that. i think the density of the pros in the zone would be pretty high, because they all tend to enter at the same time.

but let me stipulate to your point. here's my stumbling block, and it's philosophical. it gets back to the question of what the value of pro athletes are, and i think the main value of pro athletes is to show us what is possible. it's to serve as a benchmark for the rest of us. that means they don't race longer or shorter or have faster or slower mandated speed limits.

i do not think ironman has a fundamental understanding of why pros exist. why they are necessary. what value they provide. i say this because i just disagree with making certain of their races all-amateur races. the problem we seem to have in triathlon, and have always had, is that too many races and race organizers are whipsawed by their own reaction to prize money. it's a $500k purse. no, it's a $0 purse. it's a $1 million purse. sorry, it didn't pay for us, we're shutting down the race.

pardon my getting off-track, but, this differing speed zone may make sense technically, or at least i understand the technical arguments. however, it speaks to a lack of understanding of triathlon's history, which is a sport in which enthusiasts stand side-by-side the pros at the starting line (so to speak). of course, pros have different draft rules, and different wetsuit legality rules, so it's not exactly, entirely the same for pros and AGers. but i think you try to make it the same, to the degree you're able. and this is one of those things where there's no reason why the pros can't be constrained in exactly the same way the rest of the field is constrained.

did it make a bunch of difference in the end? no. does this overshadow the excellent job ironman does in its race production? no. does it overshadow the fact that ironman must be doing a lot of stuff right, because it fills up its races, race after race? no. still, this is the other side of this.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [sylvan] [ In reply to ]
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I find it interesting that Ironman is so concern about the speed zones and clearly devoting a lot of time/energy to it but are not looking into results for some performances that defy logic, especially in the AG races.

Also it is pretty dispiriting to see someone with a 6:00+ time in W4044 get a slot to 70.3 WC simply because they can afford to fly to Austria. Slots are going too far into rolldown now with the WC race being intercontinental. I fully expect to see the US AG qualifying average for 70.3 WC to be remarkably slow which is truly sad because it does not represent the best racers going, only those who can afford international travel.
Last edited by: Macho Grande: Mar 29, 15 12:30
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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [Macho Grande] [ In reply to ]
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Macho Grande wrote:
I find it interesting that Ironman is so concern about the speed zones and clearly devoting a lot of time/energy to it but are not looking into results for some performances that defy logic, especially in the AG races.

Also it is pretty dispiriting to see someone with a 6:00 time in W4044 get a slot to 70.3 WC simply because they can afford to fly to Austria. Slots are going too far into rolldown now with the WC race being intercontinental. I fully expect to see the US AG qualifying average for 70.3 WC to be remarkably slow which is truly sad because it does not represent the best racers going, only those who can afford international travel.

Which results defy logic? As to the w4044, how do we know she can afford it - Americans buy things all the time they can't afford? But with the dollar being so strong I see it as a good of time as ever to travel overseas regardless. The race can't always be convenient for Americans, and if roll-downs are occurring then I think of it as a temporary "sale" on race performances. You can already make the case that the best racers don't even do triathlon in the first place because they can't afford the sport.


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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [Macho Grande] [ In reply to ]
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Oh, boo-hoo. What did you think was happening for Europeans back when the championships were being held in the US? I'm very likely to earn a slot to the 2015 70.3 Worlds, but can't afford to travel to Australia. Sucks, right? But the Aussies are going to be pretty pleased to finally not have to do that.

That's why rotation is a nice thing. Everyone gets shafted once in a while, but on average, everybody gets a chance.

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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I think in addition to the idea of how crowded the race was for the age groupers, they were accommodating for the varying abilities of the athletes in the age group fields as well. With the different waves and the varying abilities and equipment quality in each wave, 35 mph may be fine for one rider, but way too fast for another, so the situation would become faster racers riding close to the speed limit (while checking their speed), and having to slam on the brakes for someone going 20-25 mph creating a potential danger. That said, it wasn't too crowded at that point for me, and I was in the last wave (35-39). But to your point, this is the first I heard that the pros had a 35 mph speed limit, which seems odd that they wouldn't have to adhere to the 25 mph as well. I think that would have made sense for such a short section.
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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [Macho Grande] [ In reply to ]
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Macho Grande wrote:
I find it interesting that Ironman is so concern about the speed zones and clearly devoting a lot of time/energy to it but are not looking into results for some performances that defy logic, especially in the AG races.

Also it is pretty dispiriting to see someone with a 6:00 time in W4044 get a slot to 70.3 WC simply because they can afford to fly to Austria. Slots are going too far into rolldown now with the WC race being intercontinental. I fully expect to see the US AG qualifying average for 70.3 WC to be remarkably slow which is truly sad because it does not represent the best racers going, only those who can afford international travel.

Wow.....(deleted the rest)..Were you there yesterday? I was. It was a tough day on a tough course. Shame on you for picking a fight via internet. And *if* are so omniscient, you *must* remember 2 and/or 3 years ago at Oceanside when men's 40-44 rolled down to the 5:30 mark for worlds in VEGAS. Certainly you didn't a need a travel expense account for that race.

It was even worse (in terms of your assessment of who is "qualified) in Clearwater. Do your homework BEFORE you throw stones.

leslie myers
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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [AdamHill] [ In reply to ]
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"this is the first I heard that the pros had a 35 mph speed limit, which seems odd that they wouldn't have to adhere to the 25 mph as well. I think that would have made sense for such a short section."

to be clear, i'm not arguing that the 25mph speed limit for AGers was inappropriate. i'm arguing for the 25mph limit for everyone, even tho it's highly likely the 35mph limit was safe for the pros, because of perhaps a lower density of riders, and because pros don't have to deal with the variance in speeds of riders in front of them who are on the descent.

my issue is that pros represent the super-strava-achievers in every race they're in. you want to know what the apex of ability is.

i don't want to make a federal case out of it. it's not a big issue to me. it's just that in triathlon we ought to remember what our pros represent to our sport, how it is they represent value, and this is one example where i don't think the organization considered that value when deciding on these various speed limits.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [Macho Grande] [ In reply to ]
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Macho Grande wrote:
I find it interesting that Ironman is so concern about the speed zones and clearly devoting a lot of time/energy to it but are not looking into results for some performances that defy logic, especially in the AG races.

Also it is pretty dispiriting to see someone with a 6:00 time in W4044 get a slot to 70.3 WC simply because they can afford to fly to Austria. Slots are going too far into rolldown now with the WC race being intercontinental. I fully expect to see the US AG qualifying average for 70.3 WC to be remarkably slow which is truly sad because it does not represent the best racers going, only those who can afford international travel.

There have been long roll-downs in several races every year since they started. If anything roll-downs are getting shorter and shorter. And this year because the championships are in Europe, the largest age groups are usually only going to have one slot rather than three or four. I don't think you are going to see a higher percentage of slow Americans than usual. And calling out a specific athlete in public for being, in your unqualified opinion, slow and unworthy of her WC slot is a total douche move.

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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [Macho Grande] [ In reply to ]
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Macho Grande wrote:
I find it interesting that Ironman is so concern about the speed zones and clearly devoting a lot of time/energy to it but are not looking into results for some performances that defy logic, especially in the AG races.

Also it is pretty dispiriting to see someone with a 6:00 time in W4044 get a slot to 70.3 WC simply because they can afford to fly to Austria. Slots are going too far into rolldown now with the WC race being intercontinental. I fully expect to see the US AG qualifying average for 70.3 WC to be remarkably slow which is truly sad because it does not represent the best racers going, only those who can afford international travel.


You seem to have missed the boat that Triathlon (especially WTC racing) is fast becoming a playground for the rich and wealthy.
Look at the age and employment demographics of international WTC or Challenge series "participants".

Very often the best AG racers at international races historically have been and are currently just the ones with the deepest pockets.
Last edited by: windschatten: Mar 29, 15 12:25
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Re: Oceanside Speed Zone...anyone DQd? [GrizzlyBaird] [ In reply to ]
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GrizzlyBaird wrote:
I finished 10th in the pro race in was DQd for exceeding the limit by 0.2mph ... NOT a ploy

So you must have finished in 3:59:XX??? Would you mind sharing your splits since they are not in the results now??? In any case, very impressive to be only 12-ish min behind Frodo:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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