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OWS with a wetsuit problems vs pool/non-wetsuit OWS
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I am beginning to wonder if wetsuit swims are holding me back - I'm putting this question out there to gather some feedback and generate some discussion.

In the pool I am currently in what I would guess is the 18:1x area for a 1500 SCM, at IMTX without a wetsuit I swam a 52:5X - and it felt like the most relaxed swim of my life - yet at a recent Olympic distance I swam 20:0X to the beach - and to swim much faster it would have taken a serious effort and negatively impacted the rest of my race.

In OWS I notice a lot of extra fatigue in my shoulders that I don't in the pool and my kick simply isn't what it is in the pool - I've begun to wonder if they are interrelated. In short, I can't remember the last time I felt "good" in an open water wetsuit swim - I feel like I am frequently getting blown up by guys I swim with well in a pool. But I don't feel like that in non-wetsuit swims (Kona/TX)

In some recent pull sets, I've noticed that my shoulders feel very similar to how they feel in a wetsuit swim.

This leads me wondering - am I wearing the wrong wetsuit (Xterra Vendetta) - lacking flexibility in the shoulders, and too much lower body float and something different would be a better choice. Or if I simply need to pull more and "swim" less.


Discussion is welcome!
Last edited by: sentania: Jul 1, 15 6:56
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Re: OWS with a wetsuit problems vs pool/non-wetsuit OWS [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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suggestions:

1 you float more than other guys, so you get less help by the wetsuit
2 too much useless kicking with wetsuit: focus more on stroke and kick less
3 ask a guy of your size to let you try his wetsuit and see if you feel any difference
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Re: OWS with a wetsuit problems vs pool/non-wetsuit OWS [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, suit CAN hold you back. My full wetsuit swim is 10sec slower than pool per 100. But my sleeveless wetsuit is about 10 faster than pool per 100.... I had hard time to found a suit that fits my body sharp.
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Re: OWS with a wetsuit problems vs pool/non-wetsuit OWS [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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from experience, i have never seena swimming been slower in a wetsuit vs no wetsuit. In the same thread, i never seen a swimmer been faster in a sleeveless compare to fullsleeve.

Those are simple facts of life. That said, there is plenty of people with the wrong suit/wrong fit, and lack of training in the suit. But if you do it right, it should work.

from reading your post, i have a feeling your suit might perhaps not be the best fit. Fit is much more important than the level/qualkity of the suit. i presently use a 200$ low end blue seventhy and it would be hard to see a big difference in performance vs the Helix. I can swim fast in both.

The other aspect that might be the issue is the lack of training with the suit? how much swimming a week are you doing? i tell my athletes to at least expect 2-3 weeks of (2-3 times a week in open water in the suit until if feel more normal. Some adaptation are needed.

In the end, get the right fit suit and get more time in it and it will take care of itself. You will regain your edge....

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: OWS with a wetsuit problems vs pool/non-wetsuit OWS [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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I would guess it's the change in body position from both the pull buoy and the wetsuit since you have the same feeling with both? Brining your hips/legs higher then you are used to. With your times I doubt you are draging them in the first place so the lift from both pb and suit are forcing your upper body lower.

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "
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Re: OWS with a wetsuit problems vs pool/non-wetsuit OWS [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the response, your thoughts seem to confirm where my thoughts have gone on the subject.

I'm going to probably go down the route of seeing if someone can lend me a different wetsuit to try in an upcoming race/practice swim.

To answer your question jonnyo - I swim in a wetsuit way less than I should.


ETA: Right now I am swimming about 11k a week, but swim about 15k a week in the 3 months or so before an Ironman.
Last edited by: sentania: Jul 1, 15 8:47
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Re: OWS with a wetsuit problems vs pool/non-wetsuit OWS [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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My number one suggestion to someone swimming as fast as you, is to swim more in the wetsuit as mentioned above.

Swimming in a wetsuit will be more and more beneficial as you become more familiar and accustomed to swimming in it. (assuming the suit fits well)

As for a pool time, I would cross that off as a comparison I'm betting that your walls are good which is cutting out a lot of actual swimming.

Was the timing mat for the Oly right at the edge of the water or did you have to run far before you hit the mats out of the water?

jake

Get outside!
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Re: OWS with a wetsuit problems vs pool/non-wetsuit OWS [jakers] [ In reply to ]
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Good feedback, thanks.


The timing mat was a short run, but that time was my split that i took at the beach
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Re: OWS with a wetsuit problems vs pool/non-wetsuit OWS [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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You are either in need of getting a better fit from your current suit, or it is the wrong size. The vendetta is a sweet suit, and super flexible. I loved mine.
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Re: OWS with a wetsuit problems vs pool/non-wetsuit OWS [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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I swim about the same pace as you and had similar problems with several brands, particularly that they were restricting my overhead range of motion and forcing a wider catch than what I do in the pool. This tired my shoulders faster and caused me to swim crooked, so like you I'd come out of the water alongside or behind guys I could destroy in a pool 1650.

I switched over to (or more accurately, splurged on) a Roka Maverick Pro about a year ago, and it actually is faster for me, both in pool tests & open water time trials - about 90s in a ~1mi open water loop I do 1-2x per week. It feels far more flexible in the shoulders, and the buoyancy doesn't throw off my stroke than some other models, so I swim dead straight. Anecdotally, it does seem that people with swimming backgrounds seem to notice the benefits more than the typical adult-onset swimmer.
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Re: OWS with a wetsuit problems vs pool/non-wetsuit OWS [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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You might find this thread interesting: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...tring=helix;#5169839

Based on that, maybe the Vendetta is too buoyant and limiting your kick?

From what I've read, the Vendetta has great shoulder flexibility so maybe it's fit issue. I've been pretty frustrated lately because my pool times don't seem to translate to open water, and this year I've been up to Devil's Lake twice and swam my slowest times in years despite my pool times being as fast or faster than ever. Last year I swam a 59:17 for 2.4 miles and last night despite being well-rested and conditions being perfect I didn't even break 1:04 and I swam 8 seconds per 100 slower than I did doing 3000 yards straight in the pool a few weeks ago. The big change this year has been a new Roka wetsuit. I think the suit is good, but comparing the size of my previous two suits (Xterra Vector Pro and BS Helix) with the fit charts I think I might have the wrong size Roka. I'm getting tons of shoulder fatigue. A lot more than I have in the past. So maybe you're dealing with something similar and the Vendetta isn't the right fit for you.

Also, I tend to swim in open water a lot and I always notice more shoulder fatigue early in the season and it goes away as I get more open water time so maybe you just need to swim in open water more. I don't swim anywhere near your level, but I sometimes swim with someone who grew up swimming and one thing I notice every time is how much better he is at coming off the walls. Maybe you're getting more fatigued in open water because you're shoulders aren't getting a little break every 25 yards. More open water time might help with that, and maybe trying some different wetsuits to see if it's a fit issue with your Xterra.
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Re: OWS with a wetsuit problems vs pool/non-wetsuit OWS [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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After the solid feedback and advice in this thread, I decided to do a round of testing.

The TLDR; version my current suit is definitely a bad fit and holding me back.

I tested 5 different suits and found that they ranged in being about 2.5 seconds per hundred faster and about 7 seconds faster. Most of them were slower as I swam more in them, which I took as being indicative of a restrictive fit.

I tested two difference sizes of Vendetta's, a Maverick Pro Full, a Maverick Pro Sleeveless, and a Profile Design Wahoo.

You can read the full details of the test and results here:

http://www.scottbowe.com/...07/wet-suit-testing/
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Re: OWS with a wetsuit problems vs pool/non-wetsuit OWS [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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I'll start with a disclaimer that I have no swim background and can't swim anything close to 18 for 1500. I'm more like 23 for OLY. I've never swam big yardage.

That said I've run into similar issues just this season. Simply training for a sprint I got in the lake about 5 times before the event. I swam a simple straight mile each time. The first couple times my shoulders hurt so bad they were cramping by 400 yds. It sucked. I had to stop and stretch then continue. Race day was just a 400 and went fine.

I believe for me it's 2 fold. First fitness. I've never had this problem while swimming more volume (10K weeks compared to 4.5K weeks now). Yes the suit is "different" and my shoulders would get more tired, but I have tested vs. no suit and I'm 10sec / 100 faster. I've actually swim back and forth and back and forth about 4-6 consecutive 200 yard lake lengths and it's deadly consistent at 10 sec / 100 faster in the suit.

Fit for me is probably an issue. I'm in a cheap old profile design that's probably a little too short. For me it's what's in the budget and I'll never compete with you fish anyway and will always have to rely on the bike and run to chase you down.

I appreciate you sharing your experience with us. It's great info for us non-fish for sure.

24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex
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Re: OWS with a wetsuit problems vs pool/non-wetsuit OWS [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:
After the solid feedback and advice in this thread, I decided to do a round of testing.

The TLDR; version my current suit is definitely a bad fit and holding me back.

I tested 5 different suits and found that they ranged in being about 2.5 seconds per hundred faster and about 7 seconds faster. Most of them were slower as I swam more in them, which I took as being indicative of a restrictive fit.

I tested two difference sizes of Vendetta's, a Maverick Pro Full, a Maverick Pro Sleeveless, and a Profile Design Wahoo.

You can read the full details of the test and results here:

http://www.scottbowe.com/...07/wet-suit-testing/[/quote]

Good read on your blog regarding the testing. I found it interesting that the Roka sleeveless tested only slightly slower than the Roka sleeved for you, and faster than the other sleeved suits.

Do you think the fact that you're a good swimmer makes the sleeveless that close timewise to the sleeved?

I'm more of a swimming hack (57:40 at IMNZ this year in my B70 Helix full in pretty calm water) - when I tested my older Promotion sleeveless suit, I found I was about 2 to 3 seconds slower per 100m (than my B70 Helix full) during a 10x400 LCM set.

I'm contemplating trying a new sleeveless suit to see if I can get closer in speed to my fullsuit, since I'm doing more IM swims that are warmer but still wetsuit legal.

Team Kiwami
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Re: OWS with a wetsuit problems vs pool/non-wetsuit OWS [owtbac86] [ In reply to ]
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Honestly, I only noticed a minimal difference between the full and sleeveless on the ROKA, in terms of my shoulders.

I wasn't expect the sleeveless to be a ton slower than the full, but I was a little surprised that it was so close.

It could be an affect of my swims:
I literally felt shot out of a cannon swimming in the full, it was kind of shocking, so I know I took them out fast - I'm pretty sure my first 100 for both of the runs with the full were a 1:08 or faster, I remember thinking that damn, I wonder if I'll be around 4:40, and then thinking that I wasn't going for a maximal effort, so I consciously tried to back down some. I think that I could easily swim a 4:3X in the full maverick without trying overly hard.

I was really cautious with the flip turns in the Full maverick, it felt a little tight in the lower back during the first one and since I was borrowing it the last thing I wanted to do was blow it out, but on the run with the sleeveless I knew what to expect and how the turns would feel so I was probably a bit closer to normal on the sleeveless runs.
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Re: OWS with a wetsuit problems vs pool/non-wetsuit OWS [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Mike, Send me a note at: support@rokasports, let's talk about your sizing. You should not feel shoulder fatigue in our suit! Best, Jennifer
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Re: OWS with a wetsuit problems vs pool/non-wetsuit OWS [Jenpfeifer] [ In reply to ]
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One final follow-up.

I swam in the ROKA full suit this weekend at Racine 70.3. I had zero shoulder fatigue or any problems during the swim - first time for a really long time. I hit the swim arch at 24:12. A part of me ponders if the swim was current aided or slightly short, but spot checking some of the folks who I know to be relatively consistent with their swims seem to have had normal swims - so.....

No matter if it was a "legit" swim or slightly aided, I was happy with the result and feel like it finally is representative of my swim fitness - so I'm stoked.
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Re: OWS with a wetsuit problems vs pool/non-wetsuit OWS [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Scott - good to hear from you, I think you know who this is but in case not you used to call me Thumb :). I run an Orca for this exact problem. It is very thin in the shoulders and I don't get much shoulder fatigue. Have you ever tried an Orca? I am curious how that compares to the Roka.

Mollie and I will be at Nationals again will you and Mary be there?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Member of FishTwitch - Arriving to T1 alone and watching you go by on the run.
My Blog: http://poseidom.wordpress.com
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Re: OWS with a wetsuit problems vs pool/non-wetsuit OWS [Poseidon2600] [ In reply to ]
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I haven't tried an Orca. All I know is that the ROKA is incredible and I was fortunate enough that the friend that lent it to me is selling it to me :)

Nationals -

Yeah, Mary and I are both doing the Olympic, and I'm also doing the sprint. See ya there!
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Re: OWS with a wetsuit problems vs pool/non-wetsuit OWS [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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I'm doing the double. See you there.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Member of FishTwitch - Arriving to T1 alone and watching you go by on the run.
My Blog: http://poseidom.wordpress.com
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