Now let us talk about carbon bike design

Jan 10, 07 9:02

Post #1 of 28 (5196 views)

as this is not only for the industry folks from Zipp, Cervelo, Aegis, Felt, Kuota, Planet-X, QR, etc. who post on this forum, but perhaps those engineers who get into bike design for fun...

..and it won't involve any discussion of which FEA software to use.... :-)

With the limits of aerodynamics being pushed by current carbon design (to conform with various standards, we aren't talking about the "unlimited" potential of a tri only bike that needs not conform to any governing body), has anyone thought of now adding detail or design features to differentiate themselves? For example, talk to many of the old school bike riders either here or on your local group ride, and they will talk about hand made frames with beautiful/artistic lugwork...Painstakingly methodical creation of works of art in dropouts...and more of a "creative" aspect. So when will this start to show up in a material that can be formed to virtually any shape?

Of course, much of this depends upon if you own/design your own molds, but for those who do this, have you looked at adding embossments, etc. to your products? Talking with John Cobb at Interbike, he had discussed embossing his rims in the future (this would also reduce or possibily eliminate any issues with production/manufacturing companies unethically utilizing these molds for other customers). Josh? Could this be done in a similar fashion to your "dimpling" technology? (having an embossed wheel that is actually faster?)

Anyway, I was talking to a carbon engineer yesterday at one of my customers who also rides alot of bike. We both were wondering if anyone has explored more of the "artistic" possibilities...so I thought I'd bring this up and see if anyone would provide feedback.

Thoughts?

Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [Craigster] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 07 9:17

Post #2 of 28 (5156 views)

An interesting discussion. I'm currently sat here 30,000 words into a thesis on bicycle design and I discussed some of these issues. An interesting point in the local cycling press recently showed the Terry Dolan TT bike had 'flared' rear stays and the designer said they were there for no reason at all. I winced at that one.....

I would expect Gerard to chime in and state that he'd hang himself before he's do something like this to a Cervelo. The Kalibur debossing of it's brand name is an example where this is already taking place and Pinarello have done a few 'interesting' design features with little cause from what I could see.

The point here is should a performance product have a degree of aesthetic slant to it ? At the top end no. At a price point for the masses where things are more fickle, why not ?

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [UK Gear Muncher] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 07 9:33

Post #3 of 28 (5115 views)

I'm also wondering if there is any/much of a tradeoff in something like an embossed mark (perhaps in the gap where the head tube meets the top tube, where airflow typically "jumps" that connection) or additional ridges/wings/other in areas of turbulent airflow anyway? (i.e. bottom bracket area).

Aerodynamics and airflow are always being considered in design, but has air "movement" or directing air flow been considered? (while it may be detrimental because of frontal area, could it be used to ultimately direct smoother airflow over other areas i.e. the rider?

Come on...where are some of you aerospace guys? I know you are reading :-)

Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [Craigster] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 07 9:37

Post #4 of 28 (5092 views)

Funny you mention this - I was actually just inquiring with our chief designer about this 2 weeks ago - he's looking into it. We threw around some ideas - mostly aesthetic in terms of design and end result, but since our bikes are already works of art -IMHO, it seemed at least worthy of exploration. And, no I can't talk about it in more detail.

Greg Brown

VP-Sales
AEGIS Racing Bicycles USA
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Camden, ME 04843
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At AEGIS we believe that Made in the USA still matters

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [UK Gear Muncher] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 07 9:51

Post #5 of 28 (5050 views)

The point here is should a performance product have a degree of aesthetic slant to it ? At the top end no. At a price point for the masses where things are more fickle, why not ?

If that were truly the case don't you think we'd see a lot more top end bikes out there without paint or decals in an effort to shave weight and reduce production cost? Or did I misunderstand your preception of top end?

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [GregB] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 07 10:05

Post #6 of 28 (5027 views)

Hey Greg,

So your engineers must finally be using their Solidworks I was told had been getting marginal usage? :-)

Anyway, while your bikes are nice looking, that area around the Zaero head tube is kinda bland. Perhaps a few ridges that trail out on the top tube? :-)

Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [Craigster] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 07 12:41

Post #7 of 28 (4947 views)

" limits of aerodynamics being pushed by current carbon design "

I'll guess that the limits of aerodynamics of bike design is determined by the double diamond frame design. How much more aero can a double triangle frame be made. I'd suspect it's about at it's limit and that the Cervelo P3C or Felt DA, etc can't be improved upon much more to any real significance.

There are designs that think out of the box - Giant MCR, Lotus, BP Stealth and the beam bikes (Softride, Titanflex) that are probably more aero than most double double diamond frames, but these are not UCI legal.

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 07 12:53

Post #8 of 28 (4912 views)

I think that I agree with that. I would argue that as stiffer and stiffer composite materials become more available and more affordable and assuming that the popularity of triathlon continues to rise, we may see a ressurection of non-UCI tri bikes.

The Zipps and Softrides of old, when coupled with the uber stiff carbon composites available would be able to produce a much stiffer variant of the old, but good design. If the market gets big enough to support a nonlegal frame (tri only), then we may see mass market companies start to offer them.

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [Craigster] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 07 12:56

Post #9 of 28 (4910 views)

Part of the draw I have seen from folks looking at my Aegis is that it is so beautiful without any additional frills. There are plenty of things that I could tout to someone that was interested in the design or engineering aspects of the bike, but mostly people just want to know what it is (my frame is completely unbadged at the moment). This generally leads into a nice conversation about how comfortable/stable/fast the bike is, instead of the person just reading the decals from a distance and forgetting 2 minutes later.

I think this (unbranding) is the best kept secret in small business marketing personally. If your bikes are high-profile like Cervelo with CSC, you want the brand everywhere. If it's a small company from Maine, you want folks rocking local races and creating a small buzz without forcing the name down people's throats.

Chris

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [Craigster] [ In reply to ]

fiddlesandbikes

Jan 10, 07 14:06

Post #10 of 28 (4835 views)

Interesting, the info I got from John was more about licensing than anything else. With mold costs and manufacturing being what they are, he suggested selling the rims under different names/manufacturers as long as there was a sticker or some note that they originated as a Blackwell design, ie the HED label on the Bontrager rims.

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [Craigster] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 07 14:27

Post #11 of 28 (4811 views)

I've been doing a good bit of studies on frame widgets that would help in different areas. One problem with them is that they need to be thin and often fairly shape specific to help manage the airflow. Most of the current frame moulding techniques in Taiwan/China would not be able to do these shapes so they would need to be bonded on afterwards. There is some very real speed there, I think most of it would skirt the current rules. I think that the potential for air management improvement would be equaL to bolting on a set of race wheels. For a smaller sized athlete the frame/bike drag can be over 40% of the total picture and with the generally lower watts produced by smaller racers it would be a big deal.

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [fiddlesandbikes] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 07 14:28

Post #12 of 28 (4806 views)

True, initially John had mentioned that because of some potential intellectual property issues (things he had experienced in the past), he had thought of embossing his 200mm rim so there was no way around knowing which mold the rim came out of.

However, it would make sense to follow Zipp's lesson and forge into the licensing arena. There is no mistake about which disc wheel is manufactured by Zipp even if it has somebody else's name on it. However, when it comes to bike frames, I don't know how many bike companies OE their frames (from what I know, most of it is done by the manufactures in Asia who offer cheap production in return for owning molds, etc. that they can then license products out to others).

Either way, there COULD be specific design features built in to a product that may be either artistic or somehow represent the company who designed it.

Again, the idea of a matte carbon frame with an embossed logo (perhaps fade in painted in matte black) would be interesting. I'm trying to get some of my aerospace guys to see if they'll send me any scraps of composite material to do a little paint testing ;-)

Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [Craigster] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 07 14:33

Post #13 of 28 (4789 views)

I am not qualified, and definetly do not know as much as others here. The new Lemond's min max idea is definetly manipulating frame design for performance (or maybe marketing) so it would seem that it is possible for manipulating fot looks. I was told that the reason the carbon Lemond's are being made overseas is that the Wisconsin plant is not capable of manipulating carbon in the way that is necessarry for the tube designs.

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [Kenney] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 07 14:41

Post #14 of 28 (4769 views)

The new carbon Lemond design seems to make sense from what I've read about it. It's just sad that they stopped producing the ti/carbon and steel/carbon spine bikes now that they've joined the full carbon bandwagon.

Last edited by: cerveloguy: Jan 10, 07 14:42

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 07 15:02

Post #15 of 28 (4742 views)

Again "I was told" the reason why is because the alum carb spine is lighter and stiffer than the Ti or Steal. I guess comfort is lost but they are shooting for the performance market. Why, I do not know.

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [Kenney] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 07 15:11

Post #16 of 28 (4731 views)

The al/carbon spine is actually a down market bike. They probably didn't want the ti/steel competing against the new carbon frames. I wish they kept the steel/carbon though.

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]

Jan 10, 07 16:51

Post #17 of 28 (4660 views)

Just in case if you know if anyoneone is interested. Scheels sports here in Billings has a new Ti carbon Tete de Course 9 speed 59cm for sale at 1699. Contact is Louis Mcomas @ 406-656-9220. It seems a steel.

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [GregB] [ In reply to ]

Jan 11, 07 3:13

Post #18 of 28 (4575 views)

Hi Greg. Thats a fair observation. I think Cervelo's SL range (whereby they went with a light anodising instead of paint) was heading in this direction but as you know, a bike needs to have an identity and you would be right. Even the best bikes have to pay some lip service to product aesthetics and identity.

There are examples where true performance rules and the GB track team bikes development was a good example of this. No decorative top layer, no decals. Of course this is not available to purchase by the public so I guess it wouldn't matter !

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [John Cobb] [ In reply to ]

Jan 11, 07 8:19

Post #19 of 28 (4480 views)

Hey John,

Thanks for chiming in...and my apologies for leaving you off my initial list of industry types who frequent here. Obviously it was not intentional.

So essentially, you are saying that design is also still being limited by manufacturability? I have heard yours and others issues with quality control, so that doesn't surprise me. What types of manufacturing issues arise that would not allow this? Are they simply issues with ply layup? Or holding tight tolerances?

Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [Craigster] [ In reply to ]

Jan 11, 07 17:12

Post #20 of 28 (4403 views)

From my view of some things I'd like to have made, it's a problem of air voids or poor resin flow. Doing some of these with compression moulding would fix these things but then the moulds get very complicated and expensive. The amount of clear coat is awfully thick sometimes on some of these frames and in the long run it will probably not be a good thing. Manufacturers have to balance tooling cost to selling price and it can be a fine line.

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [John Cobb] [ In reply to ]

Jan 11, 07 17:28

Post #21 of 28 (4369 views)

Well, what if I know a guy (sounds like a movie line) that is in the aerospace industry and has come up with an injection molded technique (utilizing similar composite material with fiber reinforcement) that removes all air voids. Boeing & Raytheon have offered to buy his company (they just want his process), but he is searching for viability of using this process in markets other than aerospace (he designs/builds UAV helicopters).

Of course it would be expensive now, but I'm just trying to think of areas where new shapes/designs could make a difference (regardless of manufacturing capabilities). Of course, I'm not talking about bikes with a full carbon fairing going over your legs (like a motorcycle fairing), but smaller things.

Thoughts?

Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [Craigster] [ In reply to ]

Jan 11, 07 17:39

Post #22 of 28 (4362 views)

In that case I would suggest that your buddy sell his methods to Boeing & Raytheon, get an advisor contract as part of it, surround himself with marguritas and lovelies on a beach and think up his next good idea. Our industry is fairly small potatoes for technology but the love of cycling is a sickness that has corrupted many of us.

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [Craigster] [ In reply to ]

Jan 11, 07 17:42

Post #23 of 28 (4357 views)

Calfee has made some very artistic cabon lugs on some of his bikes.

RJ

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Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [John Cobb] [ In reply to ]

timeforacompact

Jan 11, 07 18:11

Post #24 of 28 (4332 views)

"Our industry is fairly small potatoes for technology but the love of cycling is a sickness that has corrupted many of us. "

John, you need to write a book someday. and i'm not talking about aerodynamics. (though i'd probably buy that one too)

______________________________________
"Competetive sport begins where healthy sport ends"

Re: Now let us talk about carbon bike design [John Cobb] [ In reply to ]

Jan 12, 07 7:56

Post #25 of 28 (4266 views)

John,

Being from the Chicago area originally, I believe instead of "corrupted" the word might be "motivated"? ;-)

Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.

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