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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I just noticed this on the Recovery Pump site: http://recoverypump.com/use.html. Read the Other Important Information section. It compares SEQUENTIAL(Recovery Pump) VS. PERISTALTIC (NormaTec) compression.

Seems like a pretty good explanation for why Recovery Pump is better.

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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [mta] [ In reply to ]
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mta wrote:
I just noticed this on the Recovery Pump site: http://recoverypump.com/use.html. Read the Other Important Information section. It compares SEQUENTIAL(Recovery Pump) VS. PERISTALTIC (NormaTec) compression.

Seems like a pretty good explanation for why Recovery Pump is better.

Well thank goodness you linked everyone to a non-biased, neutral piece of evidence.
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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [mta] [ In reply to ]
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Full disclosure, I am also sponsored by RecoveryPump. I can offer a few tidbits to this discussion. The most important thing here is that if you are interested in the science, go to each web site and read the information for yourself (RecoveryPump.com). If I were about to spend several thousand dollars on a product, I would read up on it myself and not listen to athletes' interpretation of the products' medical explanations. Athletes can offer you their experiences with the products, but there are only a couple physicians who are also professional triathletes (none have chimed in here, yet). If you read RecoveryPump's literature you will understand the difference, especially about the why the sequential compression is a superior technology. RecoveryPump is very new to sports, but it has been used in hospitals for years under a different brand name to treat a whole host of problems and issues. If you do want to read the research on the subject of compression, then RecoveryPump is now posting a great deal of published reseach on this topic. RecoveryPump's website is fairly new, but they are adding more content every day.

I have been using RecoveryPump for over a year, even before I was sponsored. My training buddy had a set and I would go over to his house whenever I could to use them. Now I have a set, use them every day, and notice a true difference in my recovery. I have never been someone who follows the fads, gimmicks, and pseudo-science that seem to take over this sport. This product is the real deal and should be part of every athlete's training regiment. I would not use it or promote it if I didn't believe and know that it works.

If you read the literature on the products, you will come to two conclusions: RecoveryPump's technology is better and the price-point is a no brainer. If don't agree with me, I'd be happy to sell you a Ford Focus for the price of a new Mercedes.

On a related note, I had 4 flights yesterday, the day after a race. I got home and my lower legs were so swollen, I had cankles. 45 minutes later in the RecoveryPump and the lower leg swelling was gone. You can keep debating all you want, and I'll be sitting here in my boots recovering!

Pat

Patrick Evoe
Professional Triathlete
www.patrickevoe.com
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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [Macho Grande] [ In reply to ]
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Bob,

I am not exactly sure what the retail price is for NormaTec, but it's around $4-5k, I believe. Recovery Pump is $1195. Regarding logistics and size, they are similar; however, there are some key differences:

1) Recovery Pump is much easier to get in and out of - there is a zipper on the top that allows for super easy entry/ exit. Norma is not difficult, but it's more difficult to get into/ out of. than RP.
2) Recovery Pump is a smaller unit, and is really quite easy to travel with. The NormaTec comes in a handy case, so you can travel with it, but it is bulkier and, therefore, more of a challenge/ hindrance to travel with. The Recovery Pump boots fold up a bit more tightly than NormaTec, so they pack more easily, too.
3) NormaTec has a timer which is really nice, so it clicks off when you are done compressing; Recovery Pump will pump for as long as you want, so you have to watch the clock!
4) From an appearance standpoint, Recovery Pump looks like product you might find in a hospital (since it is), whereas NormaTec has a bit more of a polished and high-tech look. As we know, polished and shiny tend to sell a bit better to the general consumer (in our sport as well as in the NFL, etc.).

I'm sure I can think of more similarities and differences, but this should get you started.

Michael
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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [vatolovato] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with ML that the NORMATEC may look more high-tech, but what are looks worth in comparison to results? If the system is used in hospitals, doesn't that attest to its ability? The sequential compression moves the waste up and up and out of the legs, compared to the peristaltic form where the waste is squeezed out, but then has a chance to move back to the area during the decompression. I have the RecoveryPump system, and I've seen recovery results following the first few uses of it. There's no better feeling of finishing a 4 hour event at high intensity, using the RecoveryPump system, and feeling just as ready to head out the door and back to training the day after. The system works. And at far less of a price than NORMATEC system, RecoveryPump proves it's worth times over.
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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [cam2win] [ In reply to ]
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I am also using the Recovery Pump Boots. They are amazing! I sometimes have to make deals with myself to take them off!

While I know I could probably benefit from using them more frequently, I find myself using them after every run and ride, time permitting. They have definitely helped me recover more quickly and my legs feel fresh more quickly when used as recommended.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts once you get them!

MJ Slikas
USAT Certified Coach
http://www.trismartcoaching.com
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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [cam2win] [ In reply to ]
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For me, I personally find that $4000. is a pretty obscene amount of money to pay for a device that aids in recovery, when rest a good old ice bath, and massage will do the same thing for free.
That being said I do use a recovery pump, and can tell you that it's AWESOME......and from a cost perspective it much more manageable!
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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [Mtntriathlete] [ In reply to ]
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That's good to hear.
Last edited by: cam2win: May 16, 11 8:30
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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [Mtntriathlete] [ In reply to ]
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Mtntriathlete wrote:
when rest a good old ice bath, and massage will do the same thing for free!

There's actually some evidence out there that cold therapy (aka ice baths) are a bad thing for training. If you have inflammation from a sprain/break/strain/etc., then of course ice can help. But there's some evidence now that part of the process of "increasing fitness" is your body's response to inflammation. I.e., the compensation part of training load response is, it now seems, at least partly due to the presence of inflammatory stress which training creates. If you artificially remove that stress with an ice bath, you can limit the body's compensatory response. You'd be better off just allowing your body the time it needs rather than artificially shortening your recovery time with ice. That's part of why devices like the NormaTec & RecoveryPump are superior to ice - because they are basically supporting what your body does naturally. That is, in fact, the specific design of the NormaTec and part of why it was designed to function the way it was. I'll have to dig around to find the article. A quick googling didn't yield it; though it did yield a reference by a coach on letsrun to the same article, but of course without a link. Anyway, something to consider.

Secondly, and this is more of a question because I'd love to know, where do you get massage for free?


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar

Ask me about: DiamondBack Bikes | Zipp | 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2017 | Quarq | SRAM | MatchRider | Kiwami | ROKA
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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [cam2win] [ In reply to ]
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I have been using Recovery Pump Boots for almost a month now and I can honestly say that they work. My legs feel so much more fresh for all sessions after using the boots prior to a workout and 30min before a run. I am being completely honest when I say that they have been working for me. The customer service is also great. I love my recovery pump boots and will continue to use them as they are proving to be a huge benefit for my training and recovery.
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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [loumadone] [ In reply to ]
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for you Eastern PA and NJ peeps, Recovery Pump is planning an educational talk / demo day in Bethlehem PA on June 7, 2011 at 7:00pm. PM me for more details.


http://www.motiv-8.blogspot.com

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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [cam2win] [ In reply to ]
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OK, Ive got a good idea of the difference of these two products.

But what about Game Ready as one poster added as an alternative? It obviously adds cold therapy but how does it compare in total as a recovery product compared to NormaTec and Rec Pump? Both in function and price wise?

Jonas
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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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"That's part of why devices like the NormaTec & RecoveryPump are superior to ice - because they are basically supporting what your body does naturally."




If you're artificially enhancing the recovery process how is that really different than icing, as far as training adaptations go?
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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [c.dan.jog] [ In reply to ]
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c.dan.jog wrote:
"That's part of why devices like the NormaTec & RecoveryPump are superior to ice - because they are basically supporting what your body does naturally."




If you're artificially enhancing the recovery process how is that really different than icing, as far as training adaptations go?

It has to do with how each system works. The modalities are totally different. "Recovery" is not one thing. And things can affect your "recovery" in a multitude of ways. For reasons that are not yet fully understood, cold therapy seems to have quite a profound effect on certain elements of your body's stress response. Some of the effects may end up adversely affecting what an athlete wants in response to stress. The NormaTec and Recovery Pump each work in different ways, but both are reasonably similar in how they work. And how they work is totally different than ice.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar

Ask me about: DiamondBack Bikes | Zipp | 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2017 | Quarq | SRAM | MatchRider | Kiwami | ROKA
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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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You know what always struck me as sort of ironic or interesting in this whole conversation is some of the lack of follow through.

Now being someone who works in a hospital, as well as involved with government grants (to the tune of $250M a year) research can be subjective, and very often just because you see more studies, is not necessarily a function of a better product or method, but can be the case of how long something has been around.

Now before getting into too much detail, one should know that the Recovery Pump product has been a while for quite some time. It is in fact, if you look at the device, "The Petite Basic System" model 701A if you want to get more specific. It offers sequential compression. That is is, and retails for around $1299 as a MSRP from the actual manufacturer. (Recovery Pump just sticks a label on a product that you can in fact find cheaper from medical device companies if you go direct)

Now what also got me interested is the company that makes the Recovery Pump device itself, does offer a version that incorporates Peristaltic wave compression as well. That would be the model 1201 "The Optimal" as it is called. The price on that unit which offers Peristaltic compression lists for $7399. The "Optimal" also is able to offer 10 mmHg more of variable pressure than the "Basic" version. Sort of funny how the more expensive version also offers Peristaltic compression.

I also have seen the fallacy posted that "more pressure" is better. Or that since you get more compression over time with the full sequential boots, those are better. Actually a lot of studies regarding Lymphedema conclude that lower pressure for longer periods of time are more effective that higher pressure for shorter periods of time. What the "recovery pump" recreates is the physiologic "milking" of the lymphatics by manipulation of the extremities. Initial studies in the legs actually started at around 150 mmHg compared to what is out there now which covers a 20 - 80 mmHg for the Recovery Pump or 20 - 90 mmHg for the Normatec products.

If you would like some light reading, perhaps McLeod, Brooks and Hale "A clinical report on the use of three external pneumatic compression devices in the management of lymphedema in a pediatric population." Physiother Cancer. 1991, Goldstein and Lesher "Treatment of lymphedema with a multicompartimental pneumatic compression device" Jour Am Acad Dermatol. 1989, or TF O'Donnell has several studies from the 80s and early 90s.

What I also understand is the $4500 Normatec MVP product is completely programmable which will be similar to the "Optimal" product that goes for $7400. The way I always viewed it is that the peristaltic waves helped massage the areas which will also help in flushing.

Someone compared it to Ford Fusion versus Mercedes... I look at it more like VHS (rp) versus Blu-Ray.

I am still in the process of research, but looking at the two companies, what I see is one took a product that has been around for 30 years and just repackaged it where the other came from someone who used that product, saw there was a better, more effective way of doing it, and then created it.

I think regardless, both products will help. I also saw that Normatec will becoming down with a less customized, basic version, which will basically be in line with the pricing of the RP product, which is jacked up quite a bit.

For the record. I used the RP product over two days at Quassy and liked it. I think it is a great use of the old technology in a new market. I have not used the Normatec product yet, definitely cannot afford my budget wise the MVP product, but am eager to see their basic model which supposedly will be coming out soon. I do know what little research I have done, I am more excited about the peristaltic wave for increasing the blood flow to flush toxics than the sequential squeeze
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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [Maui5150] [ In reply to ]
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Some thoughts....

1) In essence the entire "recovery clothing" category owes itself to the research done on lymphedema patients. So, what vendors are doing is merely taking old, possiblty dated thinking and research on lymphedema and applying it to a new population, the endurance athlete.

2) Simply because something is called "recovery" doesn't make it so......Case in point, I was at a focus group recently and a vendor was showing some prototype "compression wear" and was talking about how the marketing would play up the benefits of compression. When I asked about whether it had a graduated nature and other aspects, I was blown off. When I persisted I asked point blankly "There is compression that is medical grade and there are products that are merely tight fitting, it seems you are the latter, correct?" They agreed to a degree and then went on to point out the awesome colorways they'll have available.

3) With price points betwen $8000 and $1300, the question of benefit exists to the consumer much like wheels and bikes. Absent of any other recovery method, is the $8000 product better than the $1300 one? Or, more precisely, what is the advantage (Again, absent any other product usage) of the $8000 product and what will it do better?

4) Given that the $8000 product is arguable better, the question of the $1300 product's sufficiency is preeminent. In other words, for the weekend warrior or athlete, will the $1300 product be sufficient to allow them to recover from workouts better and race at a higher level? The answer to this is fairly subjective and can, I assume, only be answered with a small group study.

So, in short, I am intrigued by the price point of the Recovery Pump, but whether or not it'll be better than a foam roller and Epsom Salts is my nagging fear.

Bob



"If you have a dream, pursue it as hard as you can. The world needs more of that." - Jordan Rapp
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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [Macho Grande] [ In reply to ]
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Some great points there Bob.

Definitely the idea of compression clothing or machines to aid in recovery has been a great extended use of treatments. Thankfully others saw the potential benefit and we all have been helped I think in general.

Definitely agree as well that just because something compresses, does not mean it is beneficial or will actually help someone "recover".

Someone had pointed out about athletes using Normatec and that RP was new and just starting to market. That is true in someways, but one also has to understand that the Recovery Pump product has been around for a LONG TIME. A really long time. The Recovery Pump people used to sell the product as a medical device in its old usage for Lymphederma patients etc. They just figured why not market it to athletes. But by the same token, that is not necessarily all good and wonderful. While "Recovery Pump" as a company is new, the device they sell has been in hospitals and other places with a different label a decade or more.

Let me give you an example. Lets say I work for Joe's Grocery Supply and one of the products I carry is Ensure. I sell it for $5/a pack of 4 to super markets who price it at $8.00. I then get the idea, "Hey, this would be AWESOME for athletes!" I create a company or rebrand it, throw a new label on the Ensure and call it Choco-Iron and then sell it to TriShops at $12/a 4 pack. Now if you know what is what, and that it is the exact same formula, you can still buy it in grocery stores... Or you can get it at a TriShop for a lot more... This is pretty much what has happened with the "Petite Basic System". Been repackaged... It is the same as is sold in other channels just with a different name... and a different price.

My point on prices was a little misunderstood, but let me take a step back and make my point better.

One product that is out there sells for around $1200 introductory price... It uses old tech which is sequential compression. The SAME COMPANY that makes the BASIC product also makes a BETTER VERSION called the Optimal. The Optimal also includes peristaltic compression and sells for $7400. There is another company that sells a product for around $5K that is the peristaltic version. Discussion has been going on as to the price and which is better and others saying that not only is the $1200 cheaper, but it is better tech? Is it?? When the same company that sells the $1200 sells a top model for $7400 that includes the compression of the $5000 model.

Now what most have not mentioned is that the $7400 and $5000 models are highly programmable. Both allow to customize the chambers, do different programming etc. What is also not mentioned is that the Normatec product allows for GRADIENT Compression. That means you can set the pressure and as it moves up the leg it lessens. This has been shown in sequential compression to be much more beneficial. Similarly, the Normatec does Sequential compression, it just releases a chamber or two below as it goes up which much more closely replicates a "flow" as opposed to a "Milking" Also note, the "Plus" and "Mini" version of the product that Recovery Pump carries are $9000 and $7000. The Plus product also has a peristaltic wave option. So when trying to decide which is "better" or "more effective" the same company that makes the product that Recovery Pump relabels, sells better versions that are pricier and feature peristaltic compression.

It is also good to note that Normatec is coming out with a pared down version. It will allow less customization. My understanding is that the MVP can be hooked up to a computer and have custom routines done, so what you will get with this over the counter model is one that is less customizable, but still has the peristaltic wave compression. Price target wise should be in the same ballpark of $1500 or so. I did read that this was supposed to be out last year, for the Tour de France but they got hit badly with the floods we had in Mass an got set back to the point where FEMA and EPA were in their site because of the water.

Part of what NormaTec is doing as well is going through all the hoops with the FDA and trying to get this to be an Over The Counter device... just like how you can walk in and buy compression socks. So right now there is the MVP product that is $4000+, but they have a more economical version coming out which should not only be in the right price point with the Recovery Pump, but actually should be better tech and might get the prices where they should be.

From my limited usage of the product(Recovery Pump), I felt very good afterward. Just like I am waiting on the Metrigear product because it is best suited to my needs, I don't mind waiting a little bit to see what comes with the OTC Normatec version of their MVP product. Should be interesting. They are a local company, and only a few miles from my hospital, so I definitely will be trying to meet up, give their version of boots a try and then be able to have a better idea.

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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [Maui5150] [ In reply to ]
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Great post.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar

Ask me about: DiamondBack Bikes | Zipp | 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2017 | Quarq | SRAM | MatchRider | Kiwami | ROKA
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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Great forum. I can say for sure I've seen and heard great benefits from both recovery pump and normatec. I used the recovery pump for 1 1/2 months as a trial run before opting to invest in some Normatec's based on what a lot of Maui5150 said. I can add some great insight. After starting http://www.allsportsrecovery.com 2 1/2 months ago, I invested in many normatec stations and recovery pump stations to offer a one low rate, to use either product unlimited. After 120 members and over 900 visits in one month to our center which also houses cold lasers w/tens, ice baths, inversion table, vibration, ems units, portable ultrasound and more, I can hands down without a doubt say more people prefer the normatec to the recovery pump. You can clearly try out both here and go back and forth. More world class athletes and Olympic caliber athletes that come into our center prefer the norma's over the RP, i would say 95% do, and the biggest reason they use the RP is because we fill norma's before RP, the client chooses to. It's hard to hear the facts from sponsored athletes by these products, but i would say from experience and hearing what people like, Normatec hands down. Are there difference's b/w the two? Yes. Do some prefer the RP? Yes. Are norma's more expensive? Yes, but you get what you pay for and the innovation speaks for itself. Hope this helps, we are growing fast. Cheers
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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [trimassage] [ In reply to ]
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Sweet business. I was just talking to a couple in the Boston area who have a massage business about doing something similar as well as they could get the arm sleeves and recover after a long day too. I think the price is a big factor to some, but again it is like comparing a top end performance BMW to an entry level Civic and when you really start understanding the differences you start seeing more of what you are paying for.

Big game changer is going to be when NormaTec can cut through the FDA red tape and get their basic model available without a prescription. Will not be as programmable/customizable as their current MVP Product, but price will be same ball park as RP and I think an overall higher level of feature set and benefits. I can say hands down I love the NormaTec MVP without question to what I have seen so far in that niche of the market, and even bringing in some of the Compex, Marc Pro and other stimulation recovery products that fit the electric/pneumatic/mechanical area.

I can understand why so many Olympic or Professional athletes and teams have jumped on the NormaTec band wagon

For my level and abilities it is hard to justify the top level NormaTec, but when their basic model is available. No question. Heck, I was close to being sold on the Recovery Pump product when I tried them at Quassy and was thinking of them as a fall purchase before I learned about and experienced the NormaTec MVP and started understanding the history of the products, the evolution, benefits and differences, etc.

I will even go so far and say that though I have been jonesing for a powermeter as well, I will probably go NormaTec first. I have been debating on a used SRM which makes a little more sense to my needs than the PowerTap solution, was really stoked about the potential of the Garmin Vector, but once the Vector got into the same neighborhood... The benefit justifications became interesting. I think for me at least, I see a bigger benefit of being able to train harder and more efficiently and "improve my engine" as well as decrease the potential for injury, by having a better recovery, than just measuring and targeting and improving my bike with a powermeter. To me at least, the NormaTec boots and HR Zone training will allow me to push my legs more on the bike and the run a lot more than just focusing on training with a powermeter. I also can do some of that powermeter work on my Computrainer, so even reduces my need for a powermeter more.

Best of luck with your business. I am hoping to see more similar stations pop up in my area to tide me over until the new NormaTec product gets here
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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [mta] [ In reply to ]
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Recovery Pump and Normatec are both good products. However, both are based compression pump technology that has been around for years. In fact the Recovery pump is basically the LymphaPress Brand, model Petite basic System http://www.lympha-press.com/...te-basic-system.html with another name slapped on it. You can buy comparable less expensive pumps all over the internet. http://compressiontreatment.com/ or http://www.twhealth24.info/...-walkbeyond-com.html or http://www.panasonicmassagers.com/...siontherapyspec.html. The last one is only 499.00 and I love it.
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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [cam2win] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone figured out a way to DIY a set of these for less than $500?

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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [actionman] [ In reply to ]
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Just out of interest have you tried the Normatec or Recovery Pump and if so how did they compare to the product you own?
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Re: NormaTec MVP Boot vs. Recovery Pump Boot [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, let's throw Podium Legs in there for $600. Any thoughts?

My first thought is that Podium Legs does not go all the way down to your feet/ankles. This is, perhaps, a really stupid question, but, wouldn't that cause some of the "fluid" to go down to your feet rather than up your leg? How do you prevent swelling in the feet/ankles?

http://www.podiumcycling.com/...ir-compression-pants

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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