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Re: Non GMO Maltodextrin [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Yup, neonicotinoids are looking bad, but they have nothing to do with GMO.
If anything, GM crops should look better in this light. A Bt crop could replace the organic crop that needs a nenicotinoid insecticide sprayed all over it. And further, if Bt is ever found to be toxic to bees (it hasn't), then a new Bt crop line can be developed using a promoter that is not active in the pollen production areas of the plant. Promoter control can target Bt production to only express the gene in certain tissues.

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I am very wary of manmade biological improvements that have not suffered evolution.
Me too! Evolution is too slow however, and so I'll accept peer-reviewed, scientific rigor as a substitute. After-all, how long would us athletes have to collectively be selected to evolve to be "+1mph faster"? I'd rather take the short cut and have it today! ;)
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Re: Non GMO Maltodextrin [dfroelich] [ In reply to ]
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Hello dfroelich and All,

dfroelich posted:

"Yup, neonicotinoids are looking bad, but they have nothing to do with GMO."

It appears you might be mistaken - Please read below:

Then, in the mid-to-late 1990s, GE corn and neonicotinoid (imidacloprid) seed treatments both entered the market — the two go hand-in-hand, partly by design and partly by accident. Conditions for the marketing of both products were ripe due to a combination of factors ............

http://www.panna.org/...oney-bees-whats-link

Excerpts:

Corn is far from the only crop treated by neonicotinoids, but it is the largest use of arable land in North America, and honey bees rely on corn as a major protein source. At least 94% of the 92 million acres of corn planted across the U.S. this year will have been treated with either clothianidin or thiamethoxam (another neonicotinoid).

Then, in the mid-to-late 1990s, GE corn and neonicotinoid (imidacloprid) seed treatments both entered the market — the two go hand-in-hand, partly by design and partly by accident. Conditions for the marketing of both products were ripe due to a combination of factors:
  • regulatory pressures and insect resistance had pushed previous insecticide classes off the market, creating an opening for neonicotinoids to rapidly take over global marketshare;
  • patented seeds became legally defensible, and the pesticide industry gobbled up the global seed market; and
  • a variant of the corn rootworm outsmarted soy-corn rotations, driving an uptick in insecticide use around 1995-96.

Then, as if on cue, Monsanto introduced three different strains of patented, GE corn between 1997 and 2003 (RoundUp Ready, and two Bt–expressing variants aimed at controlling the European Corn Borer and corn root worm). Clothianidin entered the U.S. market under conditional registration in 2003, and in 2004 corn seed companies began marketing seeds treated with a 5X level of neonicotinoids (1.25 mg/seed vs. .25).
... and in the space of a decade, U.S. corn acreage undergoes a ten-fold increase in average insecticide use. By 2007, the average acre of corn has more than three systemic insecticides — both Bt traits and a neonicotinoid.

Compare this to the early 1990s, when only an estimated 30-35% of all corn acreage were treated with insecticides at all.

Adding fuel to the fire, in 2008 USDA’s Federal Crop Insurance Board of Directors approved reductions in crop insurance premiums for producers who plant certain Bt corn hybrids. By 2009, 40% of corn farmers interviewed said they did not have access to elite (high-yielding) non-Bt corn seed. It is by now common knowledge that conventional corn farmers have a very hard time finding seed that is not genetically engineered and treated with neonicotinoids.


Enter fungicides

In 2007, what’s left of corn IPM was further unraveled with the mass marketing of a new class of fungicides (strobilurins) for use on corn as yield “boosters.” Before this, fungicide use on corn was so uncommon that it didn’t appear in Crop Life’s 2002 National Pesticide Use Database. But in the last five years, the pesticide industry has aggressively and successfully marketed prophylactic applications of fungicides on corn as yield and growth enhancers, and use has grown dramatically as a result. This despite the fact that these fungicides work as marketed less than half the time. According to this meta-analysis of efficacy studies, only “48% of treatments resulted in a yield response greater than the economic break-even value of 6 bu/acre.”

At least 94% of the 92 million U.S. acres planted in corn is treated with pesticides known to harm bees.

Back to the bees. Neonicotinoids are known to synergize with certain fungicides to increase the toxicity of the former to honey bees up to 1,000-fold, and fungicides may be key culprits in undermining beneficial bee microbiota that do things like make beebread nutritious and support immune response against gut pathogens like Nosema. Fungicide use in corn is likewise destroying beneficial fungi in many cropping systems, and driving the emergence of resistant strains.

As with insecticides and herbicides, so too with fungicide use on corn: corn farmers are stuck on a pesticide treadmill on high gear, with a pre-emptively pressed turbo charge button (as “insurance”). Among the many casualties are our honey bees who rely on corn’s abundant pollen supply.

Keeping us all tethered to the pesticide treadmill is expected behavior from the likes of Monsanto. But what boggles the mind is that all of this is being aided and abetted by a USDA that ties cheap crop insurance to planting patented Bt corn, and a Congress that refuses to tie subsidized crop insurance in the Farm Bill to common-sense conservation practices like bio-intensive IPM. Try explaining that with a waggle dance.

Wiki

Excerpts:

Bacillus thuringiensis (or Bt) is a Gram-positive, soil-dwelling bacterium, commonly used as a biological pesticide; alternatively, the Cry toxin may be extracted and used as a pesticide. B. thuringiensis also occurs naturally in the gut of caterpillars of various types of moths and butterflies, as well on leaf surfaces, aquatic environments, animal feces, insect rich environments, flour mills and grain storage facilities.[1][2]
During sporulation, many Bt strains produce crystal proteins (proteinaceous inclusions), called δ-endotoxins, that have insecticidal action. This has led to their use as insecticides, and more recently to genetically modified crops using Bt genes. Many crystal-producing Bt strains, though, do not have insecticidal properties.[3]


B. thuringiensis was first discovered in 1901 by Japanese biologist Ishiwata Shigetane.[3] In 1911, B. thuringiensis was rediscovered in Germany by Ernst Berliner, who isolated it as the cause of a disease called Schlaffsucht in flour moth caterpillars. In 1976, Robert A. Zakharyan reported the presence of a plasmid in a strain of B. thuringiensis and suggested the plasmid's involvement in endospore and crystal formation.[4][5] B. thuringiensis is closely related to B.cereus, a soil bacterium, and B.anthracis, the cause of anthrax: the three organisms differ mainly in their plasmids.[6]:34-35 Like other members of the genus, all three are aerobes capable of producing endospores.[1


http://www.farmaid.org/...vy4bgCFQnhQgodzRoA6g


Is it possible to escape genetic engineering at the grocery store?

I pick up a box of my favorite peanut butter granola bars. The front of the box says, "100% Natural" and tells me they contain "16 Grams of Whole Grain*" while the back is filled with all kinds of information on what's inside: a full ingredient list, an all-caps notice that they contain "peanut, soy; may contain almond and pecan ingredients," a plethora of nutrition facts like calories, fat and protein. It even notes, "Carbohydrate Choices: 2" for those with a special diet plan. My main, and seemingly simple, question goes unanswered though: is this made with genetically engineered ingredients? (Genetically engineered crops are also known as GE, genetically modified organisms, or GMOs — go ahead and pick your favorite term, they're all interchangeable.)

I've come to a grocery store near the Farm Aid office in Cambridge, Massachusetts with one question in mind: how easy is it to find out if products contain GE ingredients?

What am I finding? It's not easy to find out at all.


Cheers,

Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Non GMO Maltodextrin [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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> I saw my hive of bees all die in just 2 days and it was the first time that has happened in 50 years.

It might be foul play from someone who's ridden The Blender. Damn, that thing hurts if done at the requested % FTP.
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Re: Non GMO Maltodextrin [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you very much. I did learn quite a bit more about the neonicotinoids and their forced relationship with Bt and other GE/GMO crops.
However, it is important to distinguish that this relationship is not inherently mandatory and that just because a crop is engineered to express the Bt toxin, it does not need the neonicotinoid seed treatment (before I thought it was just an applied pesticide...my ignorance).
I maintain that there should be a separation in your argument of seed treatment vs. GE/GMO. Everything you argue here is showing the dangers of neonicotinoids and not the expressed Bt gene. Sure, it could be harder to buy the non-treated Bt corn seed, so why not rally for untreated Bt seed...unless there is a specific reason against Bt corn?

So I overspoke saying: "... they have nothing to do with GMO". They are corollary, but don't deride one for the faults of the other.

I am split on whether foods should have a mandatory label if GMO. On one hand, I think consumers should be completely informed, so that as you said: "What am I finding? It's not easy to find out at all. " If you want to know, you should be able to find out.
On the other hand, that label will have so much emotional misinformation attached that to most people, it is counter-informative. Along the same lines, Evian sales would plummet if you forced them to announce: "This product contains Dihydrogen monoxide".
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Re: Non GMO Maltodextrin [dfroelich] [ In reply to ]
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Howdy all.. new here, but digging in and looks like a great community!

On the non-gmo malto: For reference, I am a founder of a gel company and have some pretty in depth knowledge on all of the malto debates.

It *really* doesn't matter if malto is non-gmo or not. There is nothing in the chain of sugars that can be effected or have anything to do with gmo influences. When consuming whole foods, I prefer to eat non-gmo products because there is mounting evidence that it is beneficial not to have gmo in the food we eat. Fundamentally, it just makes sense. However, there is a larger issue at hand and this is certainly a first world problem. If we removed all of the gmo influences in the worlds food supply, feeding 7 billion, let alone the 400 million in the US, would be quite difficult. There are benefits. And, finding true, non-gmo, corn, is massively difficult. Especially when you get into the differing definitions of 'gmo.' Forcing cross pollination of grass species that normally wouldn't grow on the same continent is technically gmo. In fact, a few of our malto sources, even those that offer 'non-gmo,' say that they don't think any true non-gmo corn even exists in the US, aside from some wild varieties or some very small, almost heirloom, plots in the east. The issue is when we force the changes on a dna/gene level that the real questions arise, but different people define gmo differently. However, again, the level that malto is broken down to removes any gmo related risks completely. Those sugars are the exact same as the ones found in non-gmo sources, and cost much less, which is passed on to the consumer.

From a business standpoint, we can;t have it both ways. If we made sure to put non-gmo malto in the products, it would cost about 30% more on the consumers end (probably a bit more actually), which isn't what they want. The only reason we would add it (and we might) would be purely for marketing reasons as there would be no health benefit whatsoever. It would simply raise the cost for us and the consumer, and create longer production times, as well as costs for various certifications and the marketing of it.
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Re: Non GMO Maltodextrin [smudge14255] [ In reply to ]
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I prefer to eat non-gmo products because there is mounting evidence that it is beneficial not to have gmo in the food we eat.

Could you be a little more specific about this?






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Non GMO Maltodextrin [mck414] [ In reply to ]
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mck414 wrote:
What is GMO?


I know some people at Hammer, let me ask.





http://nrm101-summer2010.community.uaf.edu/files/2010/07/corn-and-teosinte_h1.jpg





Corn has been genetically modified since the dawn of agriculture, from the original teosinte grass on the left.






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Re: Non GMO Maltodextrin [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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BS. Why are GMOs banned in most of the EU if they're not bad for you?

I was in Berlin for a few weeks the past summer, GMOs are banned in Germany. It was amazing, completely organic grocery stores for basically the same prices. If I knew even a word of German I'd move to Berlin in a second simply for the food.
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Re: Non GMO Maltodextrin [Flanny] [ In reply to ]
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The EU ban is more about environmental impact than nutritional value. It's also related to companies wanting to have the option of not having their food labelled as GMO.
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Re: Non GMO Maltodextrin [Flanny] [ In reply to ]
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Flanny wrote:
BS. Why are GMOs banned in most of the EU if they're not bad for you?


I was in Berlin for a few weeks the past summer, GMOs are banned in Germany. It was amazing, completely organic grocery stores for basically the same prices. If I knew even a word of German I'd move to Berlin in a second simply for the food.


Cuz the guy who started the anti-GMO movement didn't do the science first:
http://www.marklynas.org/...ence-3-january-2013/
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Re: Non GMO Maltodextrin [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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nealhe wrote:
Hello dfroelich and All,

You may be correct in your acceptance of industry claims ……….. however a few months ago I saw my hive of bees all die in just 2 days and it was the first time that has happened in 50 years. It may be that something other than neonicotinoids that killed them but it sure put me on notice.

I understand that some tests have shown that the poison is much more lethal to bees than humans but I still do not want to eat it.

I am very wary of manmade biological improvements that have not suffered evolution.



Wiki:

Neonicotinoids are a class of neuro-active insecticides chemically related to nicotine. The development of this class of insecticides began with work in the 1980s by Shell and the 1990s by Bayer.[1] The neonicotinoids were developed in large part because they show reduced toxicity compared to previously used organophosphate and carbamate insecticides. Most neonicotinoids show much lower toxicity in mammals than insects, but some breakdown products are toxic.[2] Neonicotinoids are the first new class of insecticides introduced in the last 50 years, and the neonicotinoid imidacloprid is currently the most widely used insecticide in the world.[3]

The use of some members of this class has been restricted in some countries due to some evidence of a connection to honey-bee colony collapse disorder.[4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11] In January 2013, the European Food Safety Authority stated that neonicotinoids pose an unacceptably high risk to bees, and that the industry-sponsored science upon which regulatory agencies' claims of safety have relied may be flawed.

In March 2013, the American Bird Conservancy published a review of 200 studies on neonicotinoids including industry research obtained through the US Freedom of Information Act, calling for a ban on neonicotinoid use as seed treatments because of their toxicity to birds, aquatic invertebrates, and other wildlife.[12] Also in March 2013, the US EPA was sued by a coalition of beekeepers, as well as conservation and sustainable agriculture advocates who accused the agency of performing inadequate toxicity evaluations and allowing registration of the pesticides to stand on insufficient industry studies.[13]

On April 29, 2013, the European Union passed a two-year ban on neonicotinoid insecticides, which are suspected to be a contributing factor of bee colony collapse disorder.[14]

============================================================
It appears to me that chemical companies have a very large investment in these poisons.

I understand that you have a different opinion and I respect that.

Live long and prosper …………

Cheers,



Neal


+1 mph Faster




What is the surprise. Insecticides are supposed to kill insects. Last time I looked, bees were considered insects.
Last edited by: Dreadnought: Mar 5, 14 18:00
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Re: Non GMO Maltodextrin [Walter Mitty] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Walter Mitty and All,

Where to buy NSF non GMO maltodextrin: http://www.carbopro.com/

(advertisment states made from non GMO corn raised in Europe.)

Possibly previously answered in thread above.

Cheers,

Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Non GMO Maltodextrin [Walter Mitty] [ In reply to ]
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The folks at Hammer are really awesome: order techs, management, stocking & order processing staff. Every time I'm there to place and pick up an order they go out of their way to answer any questions and to help provide the best experience possible.


Here are some answers to the OP's questions.
https://www.hammernutrition.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=576
http://www.hammernutrition.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=316




On a side note, I personally don't enjoy the Perpetuem. It's designed for low exertion activities and therefore makes my legs feel heavy. Instead, I use Heed (< 2 hours) and Heed/Sustained Energy mix for >2 hours, supplementing with Hammer Bars, Gels, and Endurolytes (Reg. & Extreme). A flavoring tip is to add Endurolytes Fizz (i.e. grapefruit) to the unflavored or Lemon/Lime varieties.




/Howie Nordström
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