Because essentially the only benefit to brick workouts is getting used to the initial switch from bike to run. You should feel free to practice transition runs to get used to that initial feeling of heavy legs but after a few minutes all you're doing is running on tired legs which will limit your run training.

^^^^^this!

Minimal to no value, unless occasionally for new athletes to test nutrition or mental confidence.

Nothing wrong with a short brick run (transition run etc) after a ride if you (like most AG) have time constraints, and need to accumulate run volume.

maurice

Interesting. My experience with HIMs is that I can really feel it in my legs on the run, especially after 5 to 10 Km. Now, that may be because I just haven't trained enough but if I do a stand alone half Mary or 100+ Km bike, they don't feel that way. Because of that I was planning to incorporate some into my training this coming year.

So, my question then is, how do I get to that point, that is equivalent to doing the swim and bike and half ways into the run. Do I just run longer? And if so, how much?

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BC Don
Pain is temporary, not giving it your all lasts all Winter.

+1

I'm fairly new to it and have done a few bricks to get used to the feeling of dead legs (it lasts less than a km in training, and in a race I don't notice it at all), practice transitions (I've shaved 3 seconds off! Seriously though, this is of minimal value as the bike-run transition is simple) and for dialing in nutrition for my first HIM (this has been very useful, although all it did was confirm my plan would work).

Still, for new people it has value. If you're experienced, you're better separating the two so each is a higher quality workout.

Back to books for a second, I am also starting to train for my first IM next August and got two books recommendations.
1. Going Long
2. Start to finish: 24 weeks to an endurance tri
and from this thread
3. Ironfit

So of the three, which is recommended as a book for a first time full im training?

The other posts certainly have a valid POV: running off the bike is a neuromuscular skill and once practiced and refined, you don't *need* to be doing them all the time.

That being said, I think resilience and learning to run and engage those running muscle groups under fatigue is vital. You have to put yourself through the wringer preparing for an Ironman. I think doing solid run efforts off the bike is crucial. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xHntuC2ucM

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Coaching - Future Endurance

IMO, Be Iron Fit is good for a training plan but I didn't learn too much from the rest of the book- I think I read the whole thing in a weekend. Going Long won't give you a training plan, but there is lots of good info and some workouts- I go to it periodically for a refresher.

For me, a 6/1 brick was plenty long enough. You can also warm up for your long run with a half hour bike.

if you want to really learn why everyone on this thread is saying similar things (bricks are dumb), go search "desert dude" and read a lot of his posts about the topic

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@adamwfurlong

I won't speak for DD as he is a smart guy and is certainly capable of expressing his own views. I think the question here is what is the value in a "longer" run after a longer bike, DD and others have spoken about the value (certain research, experience etc) of multiple brick sessions for ITU, short course AG etc athletes IE multiple repeats of 4km bike and 1km run (or some variation), perhaps this has value�.

The long run after a long bike I would say has little to zero value from a training perspective�.nutrition "proving" yes�mental confidence for a new IM athlete "perhaps"

Maurice

This.

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

honestly steve, there is nothing to learn in term of ''engaging running muscle under fatigue'' your body is smart and it s a matter of fitness/pacing/nutrition.

what crowie was doing was a monster workout. But you have to understand this was the best guy in the world doing a lot less training as he use to. instead, he would hit with some very hard big session and get a lot more rest in term of weekly/monthly training.

are brick good? well, yes. i love to use them for athletes that have very limited time to train or in specific build up for confidence/validate pacing/nutrition strategy.

are they vital? physiologically, Nop.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Do brick repeats: bike-run, bike-run, bike-run @ race pace bike and slightly less than race-pace run. 1-2 hour bike and 30-45 min run. By the third one your legs ought to be fatigued.

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/Howie Nordström

THIS.

I have changed my view of this over the past year. I think you can still get some quality efforts off a long ride and also confirm your nutrition plan off the bike and during the run. I wouldn't go nuts with them but I think a few closer to your A race would be beneficial for sure.


Good luck!!

But doesn't this go against the concept of "train as you're going to race"??? On his ironman training day, Lionel Sanders did a 4-hr trainer workout at 282 watts, which was prob 105-ish mi, then took a 3.5 hr break, then 22 mi treadmill run in 2:30, 1.5 hr break, then a 3700 m swim, so almost a full iron race on the day. This sounds like a "long brick" to me. Obv, none of us have the engine of Lionel but i would think we should at least try to do something somewhat like his workouts on a time basis, to the best of our abilities:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

  





��Ummm not too sure if you understand what a "brick" is or in this case a "long brick"

Maurice

should have went with the advanced plan. why didn't you go with the advanced plan?

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I once did a race with no bricks in training.... I also happened to do no run training at all. Amazing I even finished, let alone ran well.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I know that a "real brick" would be running right after the bike but still, doing a 4-hr bike, 2.5 hr run, and a 1 hr swim all in one day with just 4 hrs rest total between the 3 workouts is still quite diff from what is "normally prescribed", e.g. long bike one day and long run the next day.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

agreed. not to thump the Friel bible too emphatically but this is what he prescribes for a Big Day (nearly IM distances with 90min breaks between) . . . and if you want recent evidence of its worth, just look at WX's thread and his training regimen on his successful quest to KQ.

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_____________________________________
What are you people, on dope?

—Mr. Hand

A brick run is better than no run at all...The beauty of a brick is that your training might be finished for the day, as opposed to having to stretch, shower, eat, rest, get changed, run, stretch shower. Just an efficient way to get in an extra run. On the weekends, if you have plans for the afternoon, and you want to bike and run, doing a brick might allow you to be finished by 12pm or something.

Why couldnt you just run before you rode if that is the issue? Pretty standard weekend morning for me

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JT Multisport | Facebook | Instagram | World Sport Coach

Say a 1.5 hr swim, 5 hr bike, 2.5 hr run, and 3 hrs of breaks, that is 12 hr total time, which is indeed a "Big Day". I think I would cut the breaks to 2 hrs to save a little time. Actually, i did something like this once: 5000 yd swim, 90 mi bike, and 20 mi run. I could barely stay upright at a party that night:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."