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Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout
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I know I should wait to review the results of the first test to see if the results yield more aero variation between the 5 bikes than a helmet strap/race bib/tri shoe strap flapping in the wind. But this is the internet and I'm bored.

Since I'm sure the guys from the aero bike shootout can't wait to get back to work on the next undertaking....
which 5 bikes would you like to see tested next?

Here's my list:


1) Canyon Speedmax CF 8.0
2) Trek SC 7.5
3) Scott Plasma 5
4) Felt IA16
5) BMC Time Machine 01 (2017)

I chose these bikes because 3 of them are probably in my price range in the next few years. The other two are just cool-looking and probably quite aero. I'd guess that S-Works has something new in the pipeline but the Shiv would be my runner up.

A few of the above bikes come with integrated bars, is there unfair advantage in testing them with the OEM bars with similar fit coordinates as the previously tested bikes? Is the first test repeatable?
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [Timtek] [ In reply to ]
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Timtek wrote:
I know I should wait to review the results of the first test to see if the results yield more aero variation between the 5 bikes than a helmet strap/race bib/tri shoe strap flapping in the wind. But this is the internet and I'm bored.

Since I'm sure the guys from the aero bike shootout can't wait to get back to work on the next undertaking....
which 5 bikes would you like to see tested next?

Here's my list:


1) Canyon Speedmax CF 8.0
2) Trek SC 7.5
3) Scott Plasma 5
4) Felt IA16
5) BMC Time Machine 01 (2017)

I chose these bikes because 3 of them are probably in my price range in the next few years. The other two are just cool-looking and probably quite aero. I'd guess that S-Works has something new in the pipeline but the Shiv would be my runner up.

A few of the above bikes come with integrated bars, is there unfair advantage in testing them with the OEM bars with similar fit coordinates as the previously tested bikes? Is the first test repeatable?

I would suggest repeating one of the previous setups as a "control".



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [Timtek] [ In reply to ]
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You know what would be really interesting? If Dan would do an article about 5 average age groupers buying their first new tri bike. Maybe a budget of $3000 and follow each of them through the process of buying the bike/helmet/fit session. I have no interest in shaming any LBS, so the shopping could be done with complete anonymity, but after all is said and done, Dan could have a group of 3-5 "judges" and score the new purchases on things like fit/aero/groupset/nutrition/storage/hydration, etc. Would be a great way for newbies to spot possible shopping pitfalls and maximize the bang for their buck. Just a thought.
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
I would suggest repeating one of the previous setups as a "control".

Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Looks like they'll have to fit in 6 bikes/day next time though.

IndyClay wrote:
Dan could have a group of 3-5 "judges" and score the new purchases on things like fit/aero/groupset/nutrition/storage/hydration, etc. Would be a great way for newbies to spot possible shopping pitfalls and maximize the bang for their buck. Just a thought.

The problem I see with that is that many can't get really get aero with their fit positions. Of course some can, but the majority that I see aren't in what I'd consider a fast position whatsoever.

Before anyone tells me I can't possibly spot how fast a position is without testing it in the tunnel I'll just preemptively say that I have a pretty good idea of what a fast professional position looks like compared to an average age grouper. If you really want to add aero into that equation you'll need FOP age groupers.

-------------------
Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Twitter
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [Timtek] [ In reply to ]
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Timtek wrote:
Since I'm sure the guys from the aero bike shootout can't wait to get back to work on the next undertaking.... which 5 bikes would you like to see tested next?

We are already contemplating a follow up test. Some would like another crack at the test at a tunnel with different architecture and using a different protocol. If possible, I would like to also add the Canyon Speedmax, Dimond Marquise, Speed Concept, and TriRig Omni to the testing. TriRig volunteered to loan an Omni for the recent shootout, but that offer was issued three days before the test and it was simply too late. I can only do so much!

If we repeat this test with 10 bikes, it would take roughly 12 hours to complete. We would need to do it all in one day. You guys better start saving your shekels unless the manufacturers are willing to foot the whole bill for the tunnel time and the equipment needs of a much more ambitious test. I'm not spending any more money on this stuff. Not a dime. This data is sufficient for my financial investment, though as a hobby I would still contribute my time for further research, and as a rider I have proven that I can hold a position with +/- 2 watts or ~0.002 m^2 on average across yaw points, so I am willing to be the guy pedaling the bike.

Stay tuned.
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [Timtek] [ In reply to ]
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Timtek wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
I would suggest repeating one of the previous setups as a "control".


Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Looks like they'll have to fit in 6 bikes/day next time though.

IndyClay wrote:
Dan could have a group of 3-5 "judges" and score the new purchases on things like fit/aero/groupset/nutrition/storage/hydration, etc. Would be a great way for newbies to spot possible shopping pitfalls and maximize the bang for their buck. Just a thought.


The problem I see with that is that many can't get really get aero with their fit positions. Of course some can, but the majority that I see aren't in what I'd consider a fast position whatsoever.

Before anyone tells me I can't possibly spot how fast a position is without testing it in the tunnel I'll just preemptively say that I have a pretty good idea of what a fast professional position looks like compared to an average age grouper. If you really want to add aero into that equation you'll need FOP age groupers.

They did 6 this time. You're forgetting about the Felt B2 "baseline". I'd say use that one again as a baseline, but I think kileyay is selling it now...



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [Timtek] [ In reply to ]
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Timtek wrote:
I know I should wait to review the results of the first test to see if the results yield more aero variation between the 5 bikes than a helmet strap/race bib/tri shoe strap flapping in the wind. But this is the internet and I'm bored.

Since I'm sure the guys from the aero bike shootout can't wait to get back to work on the next undertaking....
which 5 bikes would you like to see tested next?

Here's my list:


1) Canyon Speedmax CF 8.0
2) Trek SC 7.5
3) Scott Plasma 5
4) Felt IA16
5) BMC Time Machine 01 (2017)

I chose these bikes because 3 of them are probably in my price range in the next few years. The other two are just cool-looking and probably quite aero. I'd guess that S-Works has something new in the pipeline but the Shiv would be my runner up.

A few of the above bikes come with integrated bars, is there unfair advantage in testing them with the OEM bars with similar fit coordinates as the previously tested bikes? Is the first test repeatable?

Pretty much a perfect list but I'd swap either the Dimond Marquis, Orbea Ordu, or the TriRig Omni for the new BMC. I don't see BMC selling a lot of those (though I've already seen three of them this year so maybe my perception is off).

Add a P5 as a "control"

WTB: TriRig Omega SV (not x). PM me if you have one :)
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Timtek wrote:
I know I should wait to review the results of the first test to see if the results yield more aero variation between the 5 bikes than a helmet strap/race bib/tri shoe strap flapping in the wind. But this is the internet and I'm bored.

Since I'm sure the guys from the aero bike shootout can't wait to get back to work on the next undertaking....
which 5 bikes would you like to see tested next?

Here's my list:


1) Canyon Speedmax CF 8.0
2) Trek SC 7.5
3) Scott Plasma 5
4) Felt IA16
5) BMC Time Machine 01 (2017)

I chose these bikes because 3 of them are probably in my price range in the next few years. The other two are just cool-looking and probably quite aero. I'd guess that S-Works has something new in the pipeline but the Shiv would be my runner up.

A few of the above bikes come with integrated bars, is there unfair advantage in testing them with the OEM bars with similar fit coordinates as the previously tested bikes? Is the first test repeatable?


I would suggest repeating one of the previous setups as a "control".

I'd say P5 since it was included in Kiley's test, is fairly popular, and is frequently featured in other tests.

WTB: TriRig Omega SV (not x). PM me if you have one :)
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [Timtek] [ In reply to ]
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Timtek wrote:
I Is the first test repeatable?

Not without the same slab of meat on top of the bike, at the same weight/size as last time.

I like your list, but I'd also like to see an Orbea Ordu Team.
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [Timtek] [ In reply to ]
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I'd like to see the P4 optimized with a Ventus and Tririg added to the list.

J. Tyler Pate
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [Timtek] [ In reply to ]
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I will be shooting the P4 optimized vs. the P5-6 optimized later this spring or early this summer/

Eric Reid
AeroFit
Chapel Hill, NC
Aerodynamic Optimized Bike Fitting, Retul Pre-Purchase Bike Fitting, Triathlon Coaching, Nutrition
Ask me: Scody Optimized Speed Suits | CeramicSpeed Oversized Pulley Systems | HUUB Skinsuits and Wetsuits | Ventum Bicycles and Frames
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [JTPATE] [ In reply to ]
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meet me at A2 in a month...


JTPATE wrote:
I'd like to see the P4 optimized with a Ventus and Tririg added to the list.

Eric Reid
AeroFit
Chapel Hill, NC
Aerodynamic Optimized Bike Fitting, Retul Pre-Purchase Bike Fitting, Triathlon Coaching, Nutrition
Ask me: Scody Optimized Speed Suits | CeramicSpeed Oversized Pulley Systems | HUUB Skinsuits and Wetsuits | Ventum Bicycles and Frames
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [Timtek] [ In reply to ]
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What about repeating the same 5 bikes on a velodrome for testing?


--Chris
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
We are already contemplating a follow up test. Some would like another crack at the test at a tunnel with different architecture and using a different protocol.

That's awesome.

kileyay wrote:
If we repeat this test with 10 bikes, it would take roughly 12 hours to complete. We would need to do it all in one day. You guys better start saving your shekels unless the manufacturers are willing to foot the whole bill for the tunnel time and the equipment needs of a much more ambitious test. I'm not spending any more money on this stuff. Not a dime. This data is sufficient for my financial investment, though as a hobby I would still contribute my time for further research, and as a rider I have proven that I can hold a position with +/- 2 watts or ~0.002 m^2 on average across yaw points, so I am willing to be the guy pedaling the bike.

Don't blame you one bit for that. I think Triathlete Magazine or GCN needs to open up the checkbook for aero bike shootout 2.0!

-------------------
Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Twitter
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [Timtek] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure if there needs to be another one. Sensing that their won't be much difference between the one's that were originally done.

Twitter@Forsey37
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [Timtek] [ In reply to ]
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Just me I'm sure but...
TA frd
T4
Track elite
Electron
Tr01

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
Podium Sports Racing - http://www.podiumsportsmed.com/team/
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [Timtek] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Since I'm sure the guys from the aero bike shootout can't wait to get back to work on the next undertaking

dude I need another nap today before even thinking about this.

But it could be done. Yes we did Kiley's bike as a control rider on & rider off at the end, effectively 6 bikes.

I don't think you guys realize what a massive undertaking this is. If you saw all the behind the scenes work on any 1 of our ends much less all of our ends you'd never wish this upon your worst enemy.

But if you do wish it upon anyone, ring Heath and I up we're ready.

What would be really interesting is to do a fitting session (either on your bike or a brand new ride) then go from there into the wind tunnel to fine tune that. You'd optimize your helmet and clothing and/or storage then you could be #aerobullying people like I just did on twitter and IG.

But most people would rather replace their disc wheel with a new disc spending $2500 vs spending $1200 for aero testing. One will save you 3w....at most the other from 10-30 watts.

The wheel is something cool to show off to your friends where as the testing is something you use to beat the shit out of them at the races.

Flashy or be the flash.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
twitter & IG = @accelerate3
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Or buy the disc and aero testing. Then you really are the Flash

I can give you 25% off Roka Sunglasses! Message me for details! Currently 1 code left! Code must be be redeemed by December 31!
Powered by All Out MultiSport - http://www.aomultisport.com/

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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [Timtek] [ In reply to ]
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This:

https://www.bikerumor.com/...uma-track-prototype/

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [chriselam] [ In reply to ]
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chriselam wrote:
What about repeating the same 5 bikes on a velodrome for testing?

Even if they did one or two of the bikes it would be very interesting. Do you think at 0 yaw there would be much difference? Would a comparison of the two protocols (tunnel vs. velodrome) determine which is more precise (at 0 yaw)? This may already be a known, I just don't know it.

desert dude wrote:
What would be really interesting is to do a fitting session (either on your bike or a brand new ride) then go from there into the wind tunnel to fine tune that. You'd optimize your helmet and clothing and/or storage then you could be #aerobullying people like I just did on twitter and IG.

But most people would rather replace their disc wheel with a new disc spending $2500 vs spending $1200 for aero testing. One will save you 3w....at most the other from 10-30 watts.

Great point. Seems like a very worthy service.

-------------------
Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Twitter
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [chriselam] [ In reply to ]
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chriselam wrote:
What about repeating the same 5 bikes on a velodrome for testing?


Why? Field testing tells you about zero yaw only, and the error ranges are larger, aren't they? Help me understand how field testing is superior in any way except for contextualizing your real world CdA. And honestly, "real world CdA" is best calculated using a slew of assumptions for the variables in the equation -- which is HP =((Cd*A*1/2*rho*V^3)/550) + (mass*(Crr+Cbr)*V/550) -- or software such as Best Bike Split, from a few of your race results or a single race result, if you trust that model's (I think proprietary) histograms for a given course based on the weather API and the "open coast" or "desert planes" input, presumably. I don't frankly, because I just don't think it's that good -- but as a model for the real world, it does just fine. I also don't trust it because I can't see how that stuff is cranked behind the scenes. But it's possibly very good on average.

Besides all that, I'd rather test all these things in the tunnel again and then do a free shootout with the top three, say, using Chung tests/VE in Golden Cheetah. Because Chung testing is free and relatively easy if you have a place to do it.

All these approaches have strengths and weaknesses. If we're trying to tease out differences between these bikes -- which, per the Cervelo P5 white paper and the Trek Speed Concept White Paper, are somewhat minor -- then the wind tunnel is the best place to do that with the least range of error. I was once a skeptic, but now that I have seen how low the variability is and how tight the controls, I'm a believer.
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [Timtek] [ In reply to ]
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1) SHIV
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Yes we did Kiley's bike as a control rider on & rider off at the end, effectively 6 bikes.

Effectively seven bikes, if you consider the second Felt run as the extra bike. Don't short shrift what a pain in the ass this was and how many bikes we tested. ;)
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I think it would be interesting to see a (TriRig) optimized P2 as well. Nick had published test results that state an optimized P2 is as fast as a P5. If that's proven true by an unbiased 3rd party, it would save P2/P3 owners a lot of money and they can put the extra money to something else, such as aero testing.



kileyay wrote:
TriRig volunteered to loan an Omni for the recent shootout, but that offer was issued three days before the test and it was simply too late. I can only do so much!
Last edited by: bloodyshogun: Apr 20, 17 12:40
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Re: Next 5 bikes you'd like to see in an aero shootout [bloodyshogun] [ In reply to ]
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bloodyshogun wrote:
I think it would be interesting to see a (TriRig) optimized P2 as well. Nick had published test results that state an optimized P2 is as fast as a P5. If that's proven true by an unbiased 3rd party, it would save P2/P3 owners a lot of money and they can put the extra money to something else.

We tested a TriRig optimized B series, effectively. I don't see the need to test another value frame that we would have to configure to meet spec for me.
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