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New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3
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Gents,

I am looking for my first tri bike and have access to a used 2014 Cervelo P5six with DI2, Zipp 404s and carbon pedals in top notch condition. For the same money there is the Canyon Speedmax 8.0 DI2. Alternatively my local shop is giving me a good deal on a Cervelo P3 DI2 which would not come with carbon wheels but costs around the same money.

Any thoughts on what I should go for? Thanks!
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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [jupp007] [ In reply to ]
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It’s your first tri-bike, I would really consider doing some testing/fitting to figure out what geometry will work for you.

I’d get an old P2, test and figure out what position is best for you, sell it for the same price you paid on Kijiji and then choose the right bike that really fits you.
Last edited by: EnderWiggan: Feb 7, 18 19:13
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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [jupp007] [ In reply to ]
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I would always pick the fastest bike, which is the P5-6, but It would be hard to give up a warranty. R&A cycles was selling older model P5-6s pretty cheap. They are model year 2014 or 2015, but still in the box.

I don't think I would be willing to pay a premium for the P3 if it only has training wheels, so the Canyon would be a good choice.

The Speed Concept might also by similar on price and that is fast and has lots of fit options. Same with the Premier Tactical and that thing has the wheels, power meter, travel case, speedy chain and a fit.
Last edited by: grumpier.mike: Feb 7, 18 19:20
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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [jupp007] [ In reply to ]
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That is a fun choice. If it were me, I would probably pick the Canyon, but I would look longingly at the P5.

The P5 is probably the fastest bike, and you are shopping for speed. And the P5 looks awesome. Its only downside is that the front end is proprietary and seems like a PITA to work on. And, I am not loving the idea of hydrolic brakes. (Nothing first-hand, just perceptions and a few tidbits I have read about the extra maintenance steps.)

The Canyon is new and all the latest stuff. It looks pretty good too. Both are turnkey, but I like the deeper rear wheel on the Canyon and the better integrated storage up front.

The P3 would not be on any of my lists. It is expensive for its level of performance.
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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [jupp007] [ In reply to ]
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Canyon is the most adjustable because it comes with normal bars. So there is a higher likelihood of finding your fastest position.
P3 you would need to change the bars to have good adjustability. But it's a big advantage to have local support and it is a fantastic bike.
P5 far too much hassle for a first tri bike.

Your first tri bike should be about working on adapting to the position and modifying over time to be faster.


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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, thanks for all the helpful feedback! Are there any concern about the Canyon frame being too tall? I did notice that the reach and stack on that bike is considerably longer than on P5/P3. Also, what exactly do you mean by limited adjustability on the P5. As far as I can tell the only thing I couldn't adjust is then tilt on the aero bars.
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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [jupp007] [ In reply to ]
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jupp007 wrote:
Wow, thanks for all the helpful feedback! Are there any concern about the Canyon frame being too tall? I did notice that the reach and stack on that bike is considerably longer than on P5/P3. Also, what exactly do you mean by limited adjustability on the P5. As far as I can tell the only thing I couldn't adjust is then tilt on the aero bars.

The bike is a PITA to pack and ship....mainly because of the cockpit. If you do not need to ship....no problem. Also, make sure you cut the stem spacers for easy adjustment (no big deal). Yes, cannot adjust the bar tilt....no biggie. I raced mine all last season....never needed to adjust the brakes.....and they work great. If you can find your position, it's a great bike. And depending on your location and size requirements, you might be able to find a new leftover.
Last edited by: gphin305: Feb 7, 18 21:25
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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [jupp007] [ In reply to ]
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jupp007 wrote:
Wow, thanks for all the helpful feedback! Are there any concern about the Canyon frame being too tall? I did notice that the reach and stack on that bike is considerably longer than on P5/P3. Also, what exactly do you mean by limited adjustability on the P5. As far as I can tell the only thing I couldn't adjust is then tilt on the aero bars.

The P5 is difficult to make small adjustments in stack height on. There is a 50mm jump from low to high V, changing steerer spacers is a pain because the hydraulic cables run through them. The pad width ranges from very narrow to quite narrow, not many first time tri bike riders find that optimal. Superbikes are for when you have your position dialled and will not be making changes. You will get more benefit from having a bike that is easy to adjust.

The Canyon is actually very similar in reach/stack to the P3 for most sizes (I've lined up corresponding sizes below)



Obviously the 48/51 and XS/S don't match up as well as the larger sizes.

You get more options with the P3 and more versatility - you don't really want to use any stem other than the speedmax one for that bike as it matches the Bento box. P3 you can grab any stem and find a bento to suit.

All that aside, it sounds like the first thing you need to do is get a fit on a fit bike, get the coordinates of your position - then find bikes that match. It may be that your choice is a different set of bikes to the ones you're currently thinking of (though this isn't that likely - P3 will fit most people)


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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [jupp007] [ In reply to ]
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You are getting great advice.

The biggest contributor to aerodynamic drag in a bike+rider system is the big lump of meat perched on top of the small slither of carbon. The most helpful thing a bike can do from a speed perspective is to permit the lump of meat to be aerodynamic. If that requirement is met, then the next most helpful thing it can do is to be aerodynamic itself. Or arguably, to carry the things you need without too much aero penalty.

So find bikes that fit*, and then within that selection pick a fast one. Or one that you like the colour of.

* In many cases you won't know your exact fit requirements from day one. So this might mean a bike with adjustability.
Last edited by: knighty76: Feb 8, 18 1:16
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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [jupp007] [ In reply to ]
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Not that the Premier Tactical is the answer to everything, but it's a very easy bike to adjust, it's close to just as fast or faster than a P5.. and you get lots of stuff like optimzed chain, disc, power meter, travel case etc.. I don't know where you are at pricewise, but for me it was pretty close cost-wise choosing between a tactical, used p5-6 or a new canyon.. or other superbikes for that matter.

FYI, I used to have a P5-6 (with magura) and I'm now on a Tactical.
Last edited by: hhetland: Feb 8, 18 2:49
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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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cyclenutnz wrote:
jupp007 wrote:
Wow, thanks for all the helpful feedback! Are there any concern about the Canyon frame being too tall? I did notice that the reach and stack on that bike is considerably longer than on P5/P3. Also, what exactly do you mean by limited adjustability on the P5. As far as I can tell the only thing I couldn't adjust is then tilt on the aero bars.


The P5 is difficult to make small adjustments in stack height on. There is a 50mm jump from low to high V, changing steerer spacers is a pain because the hydraulic cables run through them. The pad width ranges from very narrow to quite narrow, not many first time tri bike riders find that optimal. Superbikes are for when you have your position dialled and will not be making changes. You will get more benefit from having a bike that is easy to adjust.

The Canyon is actually very similar in reach/stack to the P3 for most sizes (I've lined up corresponding sizes below)



Obviously the 48/51 and XS/S don't match up as well as the larger sizes.

You get more options with the P3 and more versatility - you don't really want to use any stem other than the speedmax one for that bike as it matches the Bento box. P3 you can grab any stem and find a bento to suit.

All that aside, it sounds like the first thing you need to do is get a fit on a fit bike, get the coordinates of your position - then find bikes that match. It may be that your choice is a different set of bikes to the ones you're currently thinking of (though this isn't that likely - P3 will fit most people)

I might be misreading something but checking the Canyon website again, I found the following data for an M size frame which should be my right fit:

- Arm Pad Reach: 467-492
- Arm Pad Stack: 605-692

where did you get the data in your table?
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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [hhetland] [ In reply to ]
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hhetland wrote:
Not that the Premier Tactical is the answer to everything, but it's a very easy bike to adjust, it's close to just as fast or faster than a P5.. and you get lots of stuff like optimzed chain, disc, power meter, travel case etc.. I don't know where you are at pricewise, but for me it was pretty close cost-wise choosing between a tactical, used p5-6 or a new canyon.. or other superbikes for that matter.

FYI, I used to have a P5-6 (with magura) and I'm now on a Tactical.

I am not at all opposed to this but unfortunately all of the Medium size frame show "no availability" and I want to race my new bike for IM Texas in April.
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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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I'd say get a P5-3 instead if that's the issue. Can be faster with a decent bar setup and stack/reach adjustments are easy.
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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [jupp007] [ In reply to ]
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Premier Tactical seems to have checked all the boxes for a very competitive price. I've usually bought 2nd hand tri bikes and been pretty lucky there hasn't been any major issues. I currently have a Trek Gen 2 SC, dura ace di2, zipp 808, and quarq PM. I had an issue with the rear triangle, so had to get it repaired at a carbon bike repair shop. Even with the repair, I probably spent about 6k USD in total, but this is over about 8 months.

My point is, you can get good value in the 2nd hand market, but may need to spend time building it up to your spec. I went with Trek since I knew I could find a good spot for my bike fit. I think the Canyon has the same adjustability. I don't know much about the P5, but it's an awesome bike. I've heard it's not the easiest to wrench (doubt the canyon is either), which could play into your decision.

What wheel set comes with the Canyon? Nothing against the 404's on the P5, but you might have to buy something deeper in the rear for racing. Also, a Power meter isn't essential, but does make a difference for training/racing if used correctly.

You can't go wrong with either choice. Important you get fit and comfortable as quickly as possible though.
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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [tri@thlete] [ In reply to ]
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tri@thlete wrote:
Premier Tactical seems to have checked all the boxes for a very competitive price. I've usually bought 2nd hand tri bikes and been pretty lucky there hasn't been any major issues. I currently have a Trek Gen 2 SC, dura ace di2, zipp 808, and quarq PM. I had an issue with the rear triangle, so had to get it repaired at a carbon bike repair shop. Even with the repair, I probably spent about 6k USD in total, but this is over about 8 months.

My point is, you can get good value in the 2nd hand market, but may need to spend time building it up to your spec. I went with Trek since I knew I could find a good spot for my bike fit. I think the Canyon has the same adjustability. I don't know much about the P5, but it's an awesome bike. I've heard it's not the easiest to wrench (doubt the canyon is either), which could play into your decision.

What wheel set comes with the Canyon? Nothing against the 404's on the P5, but you might have to buy something deeper in the rear for racing. Also, a Power meter isn't essential, but does make a difference for training/racing if used correctly.

You can't go wrong with either choice. Important you get fit and comfortable as quickly as possible though.

The Canyon comes with DT Swiss ARC 1400 Dicut wheels.
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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [jupp007] [ In reply to ]
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jupp007 wrote:

I might be misreading something but checking the Canyon website again, I found the following data for an M size frame which should be my right fit:

- Arm Pad Reach: 467-492
- Arm Pad Stack: 605-692

where did you get the data in your table?

I would guess he provided a frame stack and reach comparison vs. the pad stack and reach range you listed above.
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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [jupp007] [ In reply to ]
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jupp007 wrote:

where did you get the data in your table?

As SummitAK said - I gave frame measurements (which I got from Canyon)

Working with Pad XY is the important thing for matching your position


Note that this is slightly unfair to the canyon as I've used their 3 stem sizes for the model, vs the P3 having 14 standard stem sizes and more spacer options on the steerer (this is, of course, one of the advantages of a bike that takes standard parts)


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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [jupp007] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks - those wheels look about the same depth as the 404, so probably not much difference for training. I'm sure both are fine for racing as well, but most people would consider going deeper in the rear. Just buy a Flo disc or 80m rear (or rent). Won't go wrong with either bike.
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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [tri@thlete] [ In reply to ]
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tri@thlete wrote:
Thanks - those wheels look about the same depth as the 404, so probably not much difference for training. I'm sure both are fine for racing as well, but most people would consider going deeper in the rear. Just buy a Flo disc or 80m rear (or rent). Won't go wrong with either bike.

According to their website they are actually 62.5 in the front and 80 in the rear. Listening to all of your arguments I think I'd be better off with the Canyon although I am still struggling to understand why the adjustability is somewhat limited on the P5. Both bikes come down to the same price level and the P5 is definitely better equipped with Dura Ace Di2, Zipp 404s and a new crank as well as better speed in general. The Canyon is new, has the newer Di2 "synchronized shifting", allegedly has better adjustability and will be easier to work on. Man, tough choice...
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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [jupp007] [ In reply to ]
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The P5 doesn't have much adjustability due to the fixed stem length and minimal movement on the pads.

As for those that have mentioned how hard the P5 is to wrench on / packup, I completely disagree with that. Have packed it up as quick as 15minutes and normally takes 25-30mins to unpack. Maybe it is that quick because I am doing it so often, but really it isn't all that complicated.

Can't comment on the ease of the Canyon, but seems like a solid option and if you are looking for something at a great price point think you are looking at the right bike with the 8.0 Di2.

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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [jupp007] [ In reply to ]
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If this is your first TT bike, then pick the one that has the easiest and greatest degree of adjust-ability. If you are new to TT bikes, your fit won't be static for a few years. It takes some time to settle into a good position. And, if going Cervelo (I have no experience with Canyon), get the bike that comes with a warranty. It is not a matter of if, but when, you might need a warranty.

All that, I'd say the P3.

Even better, and less money, the P2. Not on your list but that bike can be pretty optimized over time and add-ons.
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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [hhetland] [ In reply to ]
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hhetland wrote:
Not that the Premier Tactical is the answer to everything, but it's a very easy bike to adjust, it's close to just as fast or faster than a P5.. .

That is really not what the wind tunnel shootout showed.
On a low yaw 90km the P5-6 would be 50s faster

Using the latest tour data for tt bikes the Speedmax CF SL would be 40s slower than a P5-3 (both with 808s)
A P3/2 with a few upgrades would be somewhere in between.

We can't directly compare different tests with great certainty, but it's a pretty good indication that the Tactical is in the same range as other options. That it tested the same as some expensive bikes for Kiley does not mean that it is by default faster than other value oriented bikes.

There are lots of other reasons to like the Tactical - Dans engagement with the community and commitment to customer service. All the extras it comes with that you would have to hunt out separately for other bikes. The fact you can get a tilt bracket for the bars to tweak your position.

But it is not as fast as a P5.


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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for your comments on the Tactical I appreciate it. It is a great value.

One other item that never seems to come up - In the wind tunnel the P5X and P5-6 (outside the margin of error) was slightly faster, very slightly ...... but unless you put our optimized chain on those two bikes ....all things being equal, the Tactical is faster on the road - just say'n :-)

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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [jupp007] [ In reply to ]
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I think I would go with the Speedmax it were me. But I would echo Tactical that others have brought up. The only drawback I can see with the Speedmax is if they can deliver it when you need it. It might have been answered on the thread already but if you can get it when you want I would go with those two then the P5 then P2 over a P3.

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Re: New tri bike - used P5 or new Canyon Speedmax 8.0 or new P3 [jupp007] [ In reply to ]
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The canyon wheel set should be fine for racing if the rear is a little deeper. Seriously won’t by much difference versus the other more expensive options.

I have gen 2 di2 and it’s great. I don’t use or know anyone who uses synchro shifting but maybe I should try!

At some point you may want different length crank arms depending on your fit. It’ll be a whole different debate when you get into crank arm length! I switched my entire chain set from 172.5 dura ace to 165 dura ace but with a quarq PM. It’s easy to sell the dura ace chain set but you have to do a little work.
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