Good thoughts. In theory you're "resting" on your skeletal system when in the aero postion but at the same time there is no getting away from the fact that your neck muscles are working harder with more cervical spine extension holding your head up. On long rides my neck and crotch always bothered me riding steep and my HR would increase as a result.
Triathlon Forum
Login required to started new threads
Login required to post replies
Re: New study on the effects of seat tube angle (for those of you who care about this stuff) [slidecontrol]
[ In reply to ]
Re: New study on the effects of seat tube angle (for those of you who care about this stuff) [cerveloguy]
[ In reply to ]
What does this tell us of the relevance of studies. \
That if you want any meaningfull data, you better be very carefull in selecting your criteria for that study. Since the variables that are being measured are very small to begin with, you have to eliminate as many negative factors as possible that will influence the study. The one cited by the OP is so full of holes, that it smelled of swiss cheese all the way up here. Other studies are much better, but none are near perfect just yet. First we need to get all the measuring machines to be more accurate than the +/- of the study. We are not there yet, but some of the real world studies done enough times, with enough people, do show some trends, which can be helpfull.....
That if you want any meaningfull data, you better be very carefull in selecting your criteria for that study. Since the variables that are being measured are very small to begin with, you have to eliminate as many negative factors as possible that will influence the study. The one cited by the OP is so full of holes, that it smelled of swiss cheese all the way up here. Other studies are much better, but none are near perfect just yet. First we need to get all the measuring machines to be more accurate than the +/- of the study. We are not there yet, but some of the real world studies done enough times, with enough people, do show some trends, which can be helpfull.....
Re: New study on the effects of seat tube angle (for those of you who care about this stuff) [jacknine]
[ In reply to ]
I'm not surprised by your derision, nor that of others. First off, I doubt more than 3 people commenting on it have actually looked at the paper. If you did, you'd notice there are pictures of both positions--and you'd hard-pressed to convince me from those pictures that one is inherently more aero than the other.
Secondly, there's obviously been an entire industry around 'steep', from bike companies to fitting certification companies--and a lot of people have bought into the idea. Consequently, anything that runs counter to that is greeted with a healthy dose of skepticism. Skepticism is good, but I'm still having a difficult time understanding why steep in necessarily faster.
Secondly, there's obviously been an entire industry around 'steep', from bike companies to fitting certification companies--and a lot of people have bought into the idea. Consequently, anything that runs counter to that is greeted with a healthy dose of skepticism. Skepticism is good, but I'm still having a difficult time understanding why steep in necessarily faster.
Re: New study on the effects of seat tube angle (for those of you who care about this stuff) [monty]
[ In reply to ]
Um, what holes? And didn't you just say that you didn't even read it??
Re: New study on the effects of seat tube angle (for those of you who care about this stuff) [roady]
[ In reply to ]
I read the summary, and that was enough.. Some of the holes:
1. Not enough time spent on bike
2. Not enough time spent running.
3. Using VO2, HR, blood lactate, all which have pretty big +/- every time you do them. More than the possible differences being measured.
4. What was the pre determined pace, vs conditioning/training position of subjects.
5. Test does not take into account any aero advantage/disadvantage, which is a biggie.
I'm not bagging on these guys, but before they can claim any meaningfull stats, you have to plug the big holes first.
1. Not enough time spent on bike
2. Not enough time spent running.
3. Using VO2, HR, blood lactate, all which have pretty big +/- every time you do them. More than the possible differences being measured.
4. What was the pre determined pace, vs conditioning/training position of subjects.
5. Test does not take into account any aero advantage/disadvantage, which is a biggie.
I'm not bagging on these guys, but before they can claim any meaningfull stats, you have to plug the big holes first.
Re: New study on the effects of seat tube angle (for those of you who care about this stuff) [monty]
[ In reply to ]
Re: New study on the effects of seat tube angle (for those of you who care about this stuff) [tridork]
[ In reply to ]
That, and the fact that the rider is probably supporting more weight on the arms in the more forward position, which invokes more muscle mass but this muscle mass is not making the bike go faster. Suggests these riders might fatigue or dehydrate a little quicker.
--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
Re: New study on the effects of seat tube angle (for those of you who care about this stuff) [jacksonk]
[ In reply to ]
I cannot believe that this journal doesn't even give the option of downloading the papers in .pdf form. A Word document? Are you kidding? I'm now wading through a mangled piece of crap that was probably (fairly) pretty at one point on somebody's computer...
---
justin
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it. -Upton Sinclair
---
justin
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it. -Upton Sinclair
Re: New study on the effects of seat tube angle (for those of you who care about this stuff) [roady]
[ In reply to ]
4. What was the pre determined pace, vs conditioning/training position of subjects.[/quote] Again, it's kind of silly to be calling this a 'hole in the study' when you haven't read it... This is addressed in the paper
This is a combined reply to the above...
4. I agree with roady here, this is why you should READ THE PAPER before making wild and unsupportable assertions about a failure of a paper. This is clearly addressed in the paper, and whether you agree with their method should be the issue...
5. There are a number of threads here and on BTR showing a clear aero advantage to going steeper and lower in front. IIRC a poster on BTR showed a series of pics with a decrease of CdA from ~0.24 to ~0.21 by moving forwards on the seat about 3-4 degrees and lowering the front end about 5-10mm. This is approximately the difference between going 20mph and 20.8mph at constant wattage. Clearly there are more aero positions (the superman) but most of these require a very tight hip angle, which is very counterproductive. My own field testing showed an improvement of about 15W going from slack to steep at approximately the same hip angle. It isn't a myth, just do some searching here and BTR for some good aero test results.
This is a combined reply to the above...
4. I agree with roady here, this is why you should READ THE PAPER before making wild and unsupportable assertions about a failure of a paper. This is clearly addressed in the paper, and whether you agree with their method should be the issue...
5. There are a number of threads here and on BTR showing a clear aero advantage to going steeper and lower in front. IIRC a poster on BTR showed a series of pics with a decrease of CdA from ~0.24 to ~0.21 by moving forwards on the seat about 3-4 degrees and lowering the front end about 5-10mm. This is approximately the difference between going 20mph and 20.8mph at constant wattage. Clearly there are more aero positions (the superman) but most of these require a very tight hip angle, which is very counterproductive. My own field testing showed an improvement of about 15W going from slack to steep at approximately the same hip angle. It isn't a myth, just do some searching here and BTR for some good aero test results.
Re: New study on the effects of seat tube angle (for those of you who care about this stuff) [triguy42]
[ In reply to ]
You saw an improvement of about 15 W more power or your new position saved you 15W aero ?
-----------------------------------------
Joel Steve
Fitter for the French Triathlon Federation
Fitter for Arkea Samsic Pro Cycling Team
Fitter for AG2R Pro Cycling Team
-----------------------------------------
Joel Steve
Fitter for the French Triathlon Federation
Fitter for Arkea Samsic Pro Cycling Team
Fitter for AG2R Pro Cycling Team
Re: New study on the effects of seat tube angle (for those of you who care about this stuff) [triguy42]
[ In reply to ]
Re: New study on the effects of seat tube angle (for those of you who care about this stuff) [jacksonk]
[ In reply to ]
I couldn't open it on myMac, but my only comment is that running off the bike is MUCH faster when I ride my tri-bike. When I do a long brick aff the road bike, I waddle for the first half to one mile, depending on how long the ride was. The longer the ride, the more I waddle. Off the tribike I have to restrain myself for the first couple of miles. My experience only.
_________________
Dick
Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.
_________________
Dick
Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.
Re: New study on the effects of seat tube angle (for those of you who care about this stuff) [docfuel]
[ In reply to ]
Pages opened it beautifully for me on my Mac.
.
________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
.
________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
Re: New study on the effects of seat tube angle (for those of you who care about this stuff) [roady]
[ In reply to ]
"you'd hard-pressed to convince me from those pictures that one is inherently more aero than the other"
But if you posted the pictures in a "critique my position" thread, overwhelming majority here would favor the forward position. ;)
Your questions/observations and the photos are interesting. I agree that the rider at 73 degrees STA does not appear to be significantly higher than when at 81 degrees.
.
________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
But if you posted the pictures in a "critique my position" thread, overwhelming majority here would favor the forward position. ;)
Your questions/observations and the photos are interesting. I agree that the rider at 73 degrees STA does not appear to be significantly higher than when at 81 degrees.
.
________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
Re: New study on the effects of seat tube angle (for those of you who care about this stuff) [HH]
[ In reply to ]
Moron, here. What is pages?
_________________
Dick
Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.
Re: New study on the effects of seat tube angle (for those of you who care about this stuff) [docfuel]
[ In reply to ]
Pages:
Apple's $80 answer to Microsoft's $400 office
Apple's $80 answer to Microsoft's $400 office
Re: New study on the effects of seat tube angle (for those of you who care about this stuff) [acronym]
[ In reply to ]
Damn! something new every day.
Will it open power point files, too?
_________________
Dick
Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.
Will it open power point files, too?
_________________
Dick
Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.