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New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr

 

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TimAndrus

Aug 31, 12 8:24

Post #26 of 87 (5597 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [papaya] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

papaya wrote:
tgarson wrote:
Now, the second loaded question.... when can I buy one??


Please, don't answer "fall", try to be more precise, if you can...

if the answer was next week....... i'd have one in the mail to me!

Tim

(was looking at getting a CT and didn't/haven't wanted to pull the trigger on the outdated equipment)
Tim


yournotunique

Aug 31, 12 8:32

Post #27 of 87 (5587 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [mike@wahoo] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

mike@wahoo wrote:
But I will answer every question that you all ask.

Mike, toilet paper facing-in or facing-out?
--
Yes, I know it's grammatically incorrect. Blame AOL and their 90s-era character limits.
--


Tom A.

Aug 31, 12 8:36

Post #28 of 87 (5579 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [chippyhawkeye] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

chippyhawkeye wrote:
Hi Tom,


I think the answer you received was an inadvertent mixing of a few numbers I have been throwing around at the show. Our flywheel actually weights in at around 6kgs with a rotational inertia of the system of around 0.32 kg*m^2. Based on your energy analysis that would put it at an equivalent bike/rider of about 24kg. We also have a 6 pole electromagnet brake that can deliver 8Nm of torque. We can add in brake torque dynamically to make up for the delta between real bike/rider weight and flywheel Inertia. This allows us to provide a feel that is about as close as you can get to going outside and riding without requiring a really massive flywheel.


Chip, thanks for the reply! An equivalent bike/rider mass of 24kg is still pretty good...better than the tiny flywheels on some fluid trainers (which I've calculated to be ~5kg), but short of the Revolution and the Velodyne. Let's call it a "mid inertia" trainer :-)

That said, I can see how being able to dynamically "add" brake torque would help to simulate an acceleration inertia, but that's not going to help at steady-state, or when pedal force is slightly reduced (such as within a pedal stroke).

IMHO, the main difference between "low inertia" (typical small flywheel trainers, including the Computrainer) and "high inertia" trainers (such as the LeMond, Velodyne, etc.) is that the pedal feel better mimics what a rider feels out on the road within the pedal stroke and is more specific to the training demands.

Maybe you guys just need to spin that flywheel faster? ;-) After all, you can get the higher inertia by either adding mass (or I) or increasing the rotation rate. Since the KE is proportional to V^2, you'd only have to increase the rotational velocity by 1.4x to basically make it the same as the Revolution. More "bang for the buck", inertially speaking, increasing the rotation rate than increasing the mass.

Looks like a cool product. It appears you've thought about the "portability" aspect as well. I can't wait to get a closer look.


http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

(This post was edited by Tom A. on Aug 31, 12 8:40)


blackduckracing

Aug 31, 12 8:37

Post #29 of 87 (5579 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [papaya] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

papaya wrote:
tgarson wrote:
Now, the second loaded question.... when can I buy one??


Please, don't answer "fall", try to be more precise, if you can...


Agreed, at least a specific month would be appreciated... at the very least for budgeting purposes.

Personally, I have been wanting/waiting to switch to power-based training but haven't been swept away by the current options (when you include price-points). However, this product coupled with the <$1000 price-point discussed above would probably push a lot of people who are sitting on the fence, like me, over the wall.


-Eric
---
"The Fit Shall Inherit the Earth" -Endurance Conspiracy

(This post was edited by blackduckracing on Aug 31, 12 8:38)


Tom A.

Aug 31, 12 8:46

Post #30 of 87 (5550 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [RChung] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

RChung wrote:
Tom A. wrote:

For example, by my figuring, the "equivalent mass" of the LeMond Revolution is a bike+rider mass of ~43kg (http://www.wattagetraining.com/...ic.php?f=2&t=335) This is a function of the rotational inertia of the flywheel rotating at an 8:1 ratio with the rear cassette rotation rate.


It'd be interesting to see a comparison table of equivalent inertial mass of trainers. Or, like for the Revolution, the virtual Crr and CdA.

Hmmm...a "virtual Crr and CdA" might be tough for an variably braked trainer like this...since, by definition, it's whatever you program into it.

Or, are you asking if one rides a pre-programmed loop, what assumptions for Crr and CdA are made for a given entered rider mass?

There are power curves out there for lots of trainers, right? Just fit those curves to the equation of motion of a cyclist and that should be easy to find the virtual Cda and Crr, no?


http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/


tgarson

Aug 31, 12 9:09

Post #31 of 87 (5510 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Tom A.] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Tom, thank you for constantly reminding me what a piss-poor Engineer I am in comparison ;)


I'll settle on the excuse that as a Software Engineer, I'm not required to master (or obey) your so called "laws" of physics.


Tom A.

Aug 31, 12 9:15

Post #32 of 87 (5489 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [tgarson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

tgarson wrote:
Tom, thank you for constantly reminding me what a piss-poor Engineer I am in comparison ;)


I'll settle on the excuse that as a Software Engineer, I'm not required to master (or obey) your so called "laws" of physics.

You're only required to code them up ;-)

Don't ask me to try to do any of that stuff...


http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/


RChung

Aug 31, 12 9:21

Post #33 of 87 (5479 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Tom A.] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Tom A. wrote:
Or, are you asking if one rides a pre-programmed loop, what assumptions for Crr and CdA are made for a given entered rider mass?

Exactly. The comparison between a flat loop and a loop with a known hill would be interesting, I think.


unixd0od

Aug 31, 12 19:49

Post #34 of 87 (5339 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [SteveMc] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Campagnolo compatible? How easy to switch between campy and Shimano cassettes?


chippyhawkeye

Aug 31, 12 23:34

Post #35 of 87 (5277 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [papaya] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Hi Tom,

Right now we have a few too many variables to put a solid date on it. We plan to announce pricing and availability at Interbike in a few weeks. It is a pretty complex piece of gear and we want to make sure we have it perfect.

thanks,

Chip


Nate Pearson

Sep 1, 12 1:51

Post #36 of 87 (5248 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [unixd0od] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

You can switch hubs just like on a regular wheel.

It can go campy if you have a cassette adapter (so I'm told, I know nothing about campy).
---------------------------------------------------------
http://www.trainerroad.com - Indoor Cycling Training System


blackduckracing

Sep 1, 12 8:42

Post #37 of 87 (5125 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Volunteer to product test for you!

Not a pro rider by any means, however I'm currently riding an extraneous amount of mileage as I recover from spine surgery and haven't been cleared to run yet.

Can use: 2011 Felt DA or 2010 Felt F4 or 2008 Felt B2 single speed conversion (yes, I like Felt bikes) or 1998 Bontrager TI mtn bike... your choice.

Spent three years immediately after college product testing for various outdoor companies/groups. PM me if I can help!


-Eric
---
"The Fit Shall Inherit the Earth" -Endurance Conspiracy

(This post was edited by blackduckracing on Sep 1, 12 8:43)


Trippertim

Sep 1, 12 9:00

Post #38 of 87 (5108 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I know Wahoo is primarily Apple based, but any plans for Android apps for this? Or will an iPod touch be able to control it?

The trainer road set up looks good (haven't used it yet), but I don't see an option to create my own pre-programmed workouts on it.


Tim Anderson
"It's the nature of the internets that you get some dweeb who knows nothing about (insert topic here) pontificates about (topic), believing that his/her opinion is worth the same as opinions from those who actually knows what's going on." --Echappist


Nate Pearson

Sep 1, 12 9:26

Post #39 of 87 (5082 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Trippertim] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

It's an open platform, so anyone can write an android app for it.

The problem is android is fragmented and it's guess it's hard to get the BT 4.0 drivers working on multiple devices. I'm sure that will get figured out though.

For TrainerRoad, we are working on a workout creator right now. We should have a beta out in 2-3 weeks.
---------------------------------------------------------
http://www.trainerroad.com - Indoor Cycling Training System


Trippertim

Sep 1, 12 9:29

Post #40 of 87 (5075 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Sounds good! How about the ipod touch if I ever give in and at least sip the kool-aid?


Tim Anderson
"It's the nature of the internets that you get some dweeb who knows nothing about (insert topic here) pontificates about (topic), believing that his/her opinion is worth the same as opinions from those who actually knows what's going on." --Echappist


Chris Martin

Sep 1, 12 9:44

Post #41 of 87 (5065 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Maui5150] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Maui5150 wrote:

2) Integration with Google Maps, MapMyRide, GarminConnect, et al. - I don't care so much for fancy graphics, never really liked the "silver man" but want to quickly and easily be able to take a course or race that I have rode and be able to train on it. I think especially when you have somewhat reliable GPS or altimeter data, to be able to select a workout from the past I did on my bike and then be able to train on that same course and get a close proximity to the same feel, that

This


Nate Pearson

Sep 1, 12 9:48

Post #42 of 87 (5062 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Trippertim] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

iPod touch should work as long as it has Bluetooth smart. Not sure if the current ones have that though. The next ones would though.
---------------------------------------------------------
http://www.trainerroad.com - Indoor Cycling Training System


big_vern

Sep 1, 12 10:18

Post #43 of 87 (5033 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

http://cosmocatalano.com/strava/export/
alows you to export anyones ride on strava as gpx, tcx

Are there any plans to allow trainer road to 'replay' rides in real time (eg, gpx, tcx files) as a kind of virtual partner type thing, so you could try and match a previous ride (would be fun to replay some of the pro's rides and see how long you could (not) keep up for)

is there an app for doing this already, could run it alongside trainer road when in free ride mode.


mike@wahoo

Sep 1, 12 11:32

Post #44 of 87 (4994 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [papaya] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Hey folks - Mike from Wahoo here. My partner, Chip, weighed in on the tech questions. I will try to answer some of the other questions. Eurobike is officially over and my butt is kicked.

First of all, thanks for the great questions and comments. We appreciate it. This project means a lot to us (designed from the ground up) and we are literally working 24/7 to meet people's expectations.

First of all, price and availability will be revealed at Interbike in mid September, along with another cool product. You guys will like it.

Second - a few more thoughts:
1) Noise: we did several tests using an iPhone decibel meter App in a *fairly*controlled environment (trainer in room alone, iphone same distance away, etc.). We tested the KICKR, Kurt Road Machine, Lemond Revolution, and CycleOps Fluid 2. At 10 mph, the results were KICKR 64, Lemond 74, CycleOps 63, Kurt 68. At 20 mph, the results were KICKR 73, Lemond 85, Cyclops 69, Kurt 80. Note, the db scale is logarithmic so 12 decibels is quite noticeable (EDIT: 70 vs. 80 decibels is TWICE AS LOUD... thank you google). Overall, its quiet - surprisingly quiet. People at Eurobike were commenting how quiet the trainer is and it surprised me since I am used to it - our office is tiny and Chip has been in testing for the last two months. At Eurobike, we had three trainers going and the drive trains of the bikes seemed to make more noise than the trainer/
2) Apps: we are launching with TrainerRoad, Kinomap, and our own App. I think everyone knows TrainerRoad. I had the good fortune of spending the prior week with Nate and Reid from TrainerRoad and Laurent from Kinomap and I think you will be happy with some of the ideas for new functionality we came up with. I believe everyone knows TrainerRoad but I don't think people know Kinomap. Kinomap is an iPhone/iPad App that acts as the YouTube of geo-located videos. Basic premise - you ride a course outside with a video camera and a gps device ( eg edge 500, iphone), you upload the package to the Kinomap website, and anyone can then view/ride that course virtually (with or without resistance). Wahoo's own App was a demo of virtual Strava segments, where you can pick any segment and any top 50 leaderboard member from that segment and ride against them virtually - with elevation controlling resistance and comparison of data vs. THAT rider (power, speed, hr, etc). Note - while we worked with Strava to develop this, it was only a demo - so don't get your hopes up ;-). Wahoo's App will have something equally as cool. We expect other Apps to follow suit since our API is open for any App to access the trainer protocol.
3) Basic feature set: iPhone, iPad, Computer controlled resistance; great road feel; and accurate power measurement (not calculated). All in a competitively priced (and quiet) package.

That's all I got tonight. I left Eurobike at 10am and drove 700kms on the autobahn to Berlin for another tradeshow. Feel free to ask any questions and I will try to answer them!

Thanks!
___________


(This post was edited by mike@wahoo on Sep 1, 12 11:45)


mike@wahoo

Sep 1, 12 11:33

Post #45 of 87 (4993 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [unixd0od] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yes, we will direct you to a campy adapter so you can use campy. But, the hub is a native sram/shimano.
___________


mike@wahoo

Sep 1, 12 11:43

Post #46 of 87 (4974 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Trippertim] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Trippertim wrote:
I know Wahoo is primarily Apple based, but any plans for Android apps for this? Or will an iPod touch be able to control it?

The trainer road set up looks good (haven't used it yet), but I don't see an option to create my own pre-programmed workouts on it.

The KICKR is both ANT+ and Bluetooth Smart. There are several Android phones that have the ANT+ protocol in them. Also, we are working with several Android handset makers to activate their Bluetooth 4.0 protocols on a case by case basis. Since the API will be open, we expect to see several Android Apps that are compatible with it in the next 6-9 months.

Nate was right. Android is extremely fragmented with all of the different handset makers. Until Google says "here is our ANT+ or Bluetooth 4.0 official specs in the Android operating system" we don't have a consistent communications protocol. Personally, I think it sucks for the user experience because there are a ton of great android handsets and tablets but no standard. Hopefully, we will get the most popular Android phones to work with the Wahoo protocols... (fingers crossed).

As for TrainerRoad, I think they are working on a workout creator. Side note - I can't say enough about Nate and Reid after hanging out with them this week. They have some awesome ideas to become THE standard for indoor training. Over the next 12 months, I think you will really see some cool innovations from these guys. They are true entrepreneurs - young guys with families who recently quit their jobs to make TrainerRoad a success by delivering an awesome user experience for triathletes and cyclists. Heck, you should buy a subscription just on their story! Today, the product is really good - I keep telling them to raise their prices ;-).
___________


tgarson

Sep 1, 12 13:41

Post #47 of 87 (4917 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [mike@wahoo] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thanks for the extra infro on Kinomap, that sounds extremely cool, and a fantastic alternative to ridiculously overpriced RCVs. The virtual Strava segments also sounds like a really cool idea. Hope that one makes it back into an end product.

You guys are basically the answers to my repeated prayers in the trainer market over the last several years. Finally someone who actually understands and embraces current technology rather than completely shuns it. I can't wait to get rid of my CompuTrainer.


mike@wahoo

Sep 1, 12 13:45

Post #48 of 87 (4913 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [tgarson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thanks! We deliberately tried to incorporate the best attributes of all the trainers on the market into the KICKR. Lots of good brainstorming and lots of testing. Hopefully, you all will like it as much as we like it.
___________


davidhoy

Sep 1, 12 14:37

Post #49 of 87 (4874 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [mike@wahoo] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Those other guys should be very, very afraid! Wahoo is going to kick them to the curb in no time flat if this all pans out like it sounds.

I know a guy who has an indoor trainer center using a bunch of those other units who is very interested in what you guys are doing. It sounds like it should be pretty simple, using your API, to create an application that interfaces to a number of trainers simultaneously and lets people ride and virtually race each other.

Keep going like this and you guys will be very successful!

David


(This post was edited by davidhoy on Sep 2, 12 5:26)


Nate Pearson

Sep 2, 12 1:01

Post #50 of 87 (4760 views)
Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [big_vern] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

big_vern wrote:
http://cosmocatalano.com/strava/export/
alows you to export anyones ride on strava as gpx, tcx

Are there any plans to allow trainer road to 'replay' rides in real time (eg, gpx, tcx files) as a kind of virtual partner type thing, so you could try and match a previous ride (would be fun to replay some of the pro's rides and see how long you could (not) keep up for)

is there an app for doing this already, could run it alongside trainer road when in free ride mode.

Yes, yes and yes :).
---------------------------------------------------------
http://www.trainerroad.com - Indoor Cycling Training System

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