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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [jsfarmer] [ In reply to ]
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Its a DIY mobile mount, and the Cable is for power supply the phone while riding!
Zwift mobile app... ;-)
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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dcrainmaker wrote:
It's tricky. I'm in a situation where with the older unit I have I don't see any issues with power accuracy. I'm not clear if things changed since then, or changed temporarily, or what there. Obviously very aware of some of the complaints here.

I talked to them about it again last week at Eurobike, and they noted that as part of some recent firmware updates there was additional logic put in place to better handle some of the shifts people saw. They've now got a person on staff who's entire purpose is to do accuracy testing all day long with an automated rig they've built. Not sure to what extent that has or hasn't addressed those that are having problems (which, I really don't believe is everyone - but rather a subset of folks).

It's really hard re-testing devices down the line with new firmware/revisions/etc, but especially trainers. With watches it's relatively easy because they're small and I can wear multiple devices at once. With a trainer though, it's massive and you can only ride one trainer at once. So if I'm trying to get in testing of other products, usually older products with updates to go the back of the line. Plus, in cases like today I'm travelling again for work - so just back to running for a few days and can't easily bring a KICKR. But I occasionally use the KICKR for shorter power/app testing, so I've been keeping an eye on it still (albeit on earlier hardware).

I think the fundamental flaw with the Kickr is that it uses a rubber belt drive. That has to heat up and expand as the temperature changes. Perhaps they changed their belt source, or the quality and consistency of their belts has declined over time.

This is where it seems the Tacx Neo seems to be way ahead. It appears their direct drive doesn't use a belt and that should make it much more consistent, accurate and quiet. I'd like to see some tests of it's consistency and accuracy, but unless they really screwed things up, I'm guessing it's going to be pretty accurate and not suffer from drift. I guess it just comes down to price as to if folks are willing to dish out $500 more for an accurate, quiet trainer.
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [derpuma] [ In reply to ]
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What is the stand you have for the front forks? That's a pretty good idea, does it have any movement or rock to it so you don't stress your forks too much?





derpuma wrote:
I got mine here in germany a couple of days ago. Very quite! So far great to ride. Better stand then the Kickr... Spend maybe 10hours on the trainer, no drops or connection Problems in Zwift and Virtualtraining..

Sound File: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1imPP0ERh5f

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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [Sam Apoc] [ In reply to ]
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The frontfork stand is from my cyclus2 trainer...
http://www.cyclus2.com/en/the-ergometer.htm
It's stand is rock solid, but at the quick release it has an elastomer rubber,
wich makes it possible to let the bike move side to side for sprints, etc...
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [derpuma] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks! You can tell your setup is killer since so many people are asking you about it. :)
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [jsfarmer] [ In reply to ]
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jsfarmer wrote:
Nice setup and thanks for the sound file. I give up, what is the thing attached to the board your laptop is on?

Also, what's with the long usb cable? Is it an extension cable? I have my ant+ stick plugged directly in.

He already said it wasn't an extension cable, but I do want to add for other people that extension cables are useful if you find you are getting dropped signals. A lot of things can interfere with Ant+, and in my case my PC is right next to my router which was causing issues. I got a USB extension and put it right by my Kickr and the problem was solved.
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [mcmetal] [ In reply to ]
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dcrainmaker wrote:

I think the fundamental flaw with the Kickr is that it uses a rubber belt drive. That has to heat up and expand as the temperature changes. Perhaps they changed their belt source, or the quality and consistency of their belts has declined over time.

This is where it seems the Tacx Neo seems to be way ahead. It appears their direct drive doesn't use a belt and that should make it much more consistent, accurate and quiet. I'd like to see some tests of it's consistency and accuracy, but unless they really screwed things up, I'm guessing it's going to be pretty accurate and not suffer from drift. I guess it just comes down to price as to if folks are willing to dish out $500 more for an accurate, quiet trainer.

The problem you describe applies to almost every trainer made up to the Neo. In the case of the KICKR and other belt driven mount trainers you have the thermal expansion of the belt. Whereas with all other trainers that are attempting to measure power through a tire and roller interface such as the CompuTrainer, cheaper Tacx Trainers and much everything else you have to overcome the multitude of inconsistencies between tire pressure / press-on force and tire manufacture / condition and wear and of course temperature.

With the possible exception of the Neo, I'm not aware of a single trainer today where you can just hop on and start getting accurate power from the moment you start riding, everything else requires that you do a proper warm up and a roll down/spin down style calibration to have a better shot at accuracy.

Neo could have finally solved that problem which would be a major plus, however the problem itself is very old and has not changed for a long time in this industry. Instead, it appears what has changed the most is consumer expectations and companies are finally responding.
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Re: New Tacx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [scrappy_dude] [ In reply to ]
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I got the Neo last week and have gotten in a few short rides on it. Some initial impressions:

Assembly:

- Make sure you have a chain-whip and a Campagnolo cassette nut handy. Link
- The manual is very very short, and could have been slightly more elaborate regarding the cassette assembly part, as I wasn't able to find any mention of the extra spacer needed to mount a 10 spd cassette. Perhaps it's something obvious for the more experienced mechanic.
- Apart from that, everything else was self explanatory, and I was able to start riding right away.

Initial impressions while riding:

- The ride feel is very good, much better than my old Tacx Flow.
- The freewheel is ridiculously loud. I find it weird that a trainer this silent can sound like one of those ratchet noisemaker toys when coasting. Here's what someone wrote on the Tacx Forum. "The freewheel is the loudest sound the Neo makes. It's music to Campa-wheel-owners' ears. Note to others: Campa freewheels double as bicycle bell." Link Additional note to others: While you may be able to ride the neo without waking up your family, the ratcheting sound will definitely wake them up when you stop.
- While I don't have a separate power meter and can't really comment on accuracy, the power readings are in line with what I was expecting (I've ridden with a Stages meter a few times, so I have a good idea of where my wattage was supposed to be).
- While riding, the trainer is much more silent than any trainer I've seen/ridden before. When starting with low watts and gradually increasing power you sometimes feel like you're in ERG mode with constant power, as you can't really hear the added speed. After my regular trainer rides with increasing intensity I've had to double check on Garmin Connect that both speed and power were actually going up during the ride, as I just didn't feel like I was increasing my effort during the ride.
- My first ride was on the Zwift Richmond course, really hammering away on the hill sections, and afterwards my wife complained to me that she could hear the trainer resonating downstairs. This was a real disappointment, as the main reason for buying the Neo was its lack of noise. However, when I was riding in normal trainer mode the next few times (0 gradient) at steady 200ish watts she told me she couldn't hear a thing downstairs. So perhaps the tough hill sections (=high wattage) caused some additional structural vibration, who knows. I did, however, add extra rubber feet under the trainer after my first ride, so those might have made the difference. I still intend to do additional sound testing later.
- I wasn't really able to ride out of the saddle on the Zwift Richmond hills, it felt almost like the wheel was slipping. I noted that someone on the Tacx forum had a similar experience: "When climbing (>5%) it feels as if the back wheel is slipping." Link However, I might have been in the wrong gears or something, didn't really have a chance to do any thorough testing/optimization.
- When riding the Zwift Worlds course, I simultaneously recorded my effort with a 920XT. After the ride I was astonished to find that the 920XT was showing 15.34 km, while Zwift claimed 18.07 km! The average and max speeds were equally much off. Not sure what's going on here, as I expected the motor to accurately simulate the downhill sections, hence having both the transmitted ANT+ and Zwift speeds being more aligned. Perhaps someone with more Smart/FE-C experience can comment on this discrepancy?
Last edited by: va1210: Sep 29, 15 6:33
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Re: New Tacx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [va1210] [ In reply to ]
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va1210 wrote:
.....
- When riding the Zwift Worlds course, I simultaneously recorded my effort with a 920XT. After the ride I was astonished to find that the 920XT was showing 15.34 km, while Zwift claimed 18.07 km! The average and max speeds were equally much off. Not sure what's going on here, as I expected the motor to accurately simulate the downhill sections, hence having both the transmitted ANT+ and Zwift speeds being more aligned. Perhaps someone with more Smart/FE-C experience can comment on this discrepancy?
Zwift distance is not based on wheel revolutions. With the exception of GPS, most other methods are.
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
The problem you describe applies to almost every trainer made up to the Neo. In the case of the KICKR and other belt driven mount trainers you have the thermal expansion of the belt. Whereas with all other trainers that are attempting to measure power through a tire and roller interface such as the CompuTrainer, cheaper Tacx Trainers and much everything else you have to overcome the multitude of inconsistencies between tire pressure / press-on force and tire manufacture / condition and wear and of course temperature.

With the possible exception of the Neo, I'm not aware of a single trainer today where you can just hop on and start getting accurate power from the moment you start riding, everything else requires that you do a proper warm up and a roll down/spin down style calibration to have a better shot at accuracy.

Neo could have finally solved that problem which would be a major plus, however the problem itself is very old and has not changed for a long time in this industry. Instead, it appears what has changed the most is consumer expectations and companies are finally responding.

The Velotron uses a direct drive and you can hop on and use it right away. No calibration needed, no drift. I would expect the Neo will be like that as well. With the computrainer, clearly heat has an impact, however, 15 minute warmup and RRC is part of the normal calibration process. I don't have a Kickr, so correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't warm up the Kickr and do a rolldown.

Still, since they went out of their way to eliminate the tire contact point, why add a rubber belt back into the mix to add a thermal drift component. With the Neo they seem to have done it right.
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [mcmetal] [ In reply to ]
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mcmetal wrote:

The Velotron uses a direct drive and you can hop on and use it right away. No calibration needed, no drift. I would expect the Neo will be like that as well. With the computrainer, clearly heat has an impact, however, 15 minute warmup and RRC is part of the normal calibration process. I don't have a Kickr, so correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't warm up the Kickr and do a rolldown.

Still, since they went out of their way to eliminate the tire contact point, why add a rubber belt back into the mix to add a thermal drift component. With the Neo they seem to have done it right.

You are of course correct about the Velotron but it's such a niche product I have a hard time categorizing it as a 'home trainer'. It's closer in price to most professional fit systems which could also be technically used as a home trainer if you were a crazy enough.

As for the KICKR, they do require a WU and spindown like everything else, http://support.wahoofitness.com/...pindown-calibration-

I think Wahoo just ended up shooting themselves in the foot by not publicizing the spin down enough and insisting it is something only needs to be performed occasionally (once very 2 weeks per their guidance) versus RM pushing that you should do it every ride on the CT. I can see their potential reasoning, they want the KICKR to appear super simple to set up and use and saying you have to spindown every time ruins that image, but not like having a bunch of people rant on the boards all the time about inaccuracy is great for your product image either.

As for the belt thing, I think a direct drive w/ belt still offers tangible advantages over a contact roller system and I've personally found the KICKR to be a solid upgrade over my old CT but if I were in the market today I'd probably get a Neo as long as I could get a deal on it like I did with my KICKR.
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
Nice to hear it, while I wouldn't quite call it silent it's definitely the quietest trainer I've ever heard.

I have no plans to get a Neo but always good to see the technology advancing and fostering more competition which is always ultimately better for the consumer. I can't see Wahoo's market share significantly decreasing due to the Neo though based on cost. If they started to feel the squeeze, I suspect Wahoo could push the KICKR in right/at below 1k USD which is a somewhat magic pricepoint.

In theory, you'd think the real loser would be the CompuTrainer since it basically has price parity with the Neo but with significantly antiquated technology in comparison. However, the type of people who still buy computrainers aren't people who are particularly concerned with keeping pace with technology.

The kickr snap is $850, I thought? But isn't direct drive.
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
mcmetal wrote:


The Velotron uses a direct drive and you can hop on and use it right away. No calibration needed, no drift. I would expect the Neo will be like that as well. With the computrainer, clearly heat has an impact, however, 15 minute warmup and RRC is part of the normal calibration process. I don't have a Kickr, so correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't warm up the Kickr and do a rolldown.

Still, since they went out of their way to eliminate the tire contact point, why add a rubber belt back into the mix to add a thermal drift component. With the Neo they seem to have done it right.


You are of course correct about the Velotron but it's such a niche product I have a hard time categorizing it as a 'home trainer'. It's closer in price to most professional fit systems which could also be technically used as a home trainer if you were a crazy enough.

As for the KICKR, they do require a WU and spindown like everything else, http://support.wahoofitness.com/...pindown-calibration-

I think Wahoo just ended up shooting themselves in the foot by not publicizing the spin down enough and insisting it is something only needs to be performed occasionally (once very 2 weeks per their guidance) versus RM pushing that you should do it every ride on the CT. I can see their potential reasoning, they want the KICKR to appear super simple to set up and use and saying you have to spindown every time ruins that image, but not like having a bunch of people rant on the boards all the time about inaccuracy is great for your product image either.

As for the belt thing, I think a direct drive w/ belt still offers tangible advantages over a contact roller system and I've personally found the KICKR to be a solid upgrade over my old CT but if I were in the market today I'd probably get a Neo as long as I could get a deal on it like I did with my KICKR.

I took a look at that link:


To calibrate your KICKR we use a very simple spindown procedure. The spindown serves two functions: 1) determine the power required to overcome friction in the bearings and belt and 2) set the zero-offset on your strain gauge. Wahoo Fitness recommends performing a spindown approximately once every two weeks or after transporting your KICKR.

So they aren't indicating that you need to do a 15 minute warmup and then spindown on every ride. Perhaps, if they did it would eliminate temperature drift?

I'm not sure if anyone has completely gotten to the bottom of their power drift issue. Perhaps it's deeper than just the belt.
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
...but not like having a bunch of people rant on the boards all the time about inaccuracy is great for your product image either.

It's slowtwitch, where everyone complains about power accuracy, belt stretch, and where people use the stretchiest chains in the universe. ;)
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [mcmetal] [ In reply to ]
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mcmetal wrote:

So they aren't indicating that you need to do a 15 minute warmup and then spindown on every ride. Perhaps, if they did it would eliminate temperature drift?

I'm not sure if anyone has completely gotten to the bottom of their power drift issue. Perhaps it's deeper than just the belt.

Good point, I guess I have just been extrapolating my experience from owning a CT and always doing a WU before the spin down even though their guidance doesn't actually say to do it. Maybe that's why I've never had any issues with accuracy, but as you said I think there's more stuff going on than just the belt.

My best personal theory about the KICKR issues discussed frequently on these boards is that it is some combination of a variety of factors:
  1. Users not performing spin downs frequently enough / correctly, could be based on bad or not properly communicated guidance from Wahoo.
  2. Variability within the power meters that people are assuming to be the golden standard that they compare their KICKR against. Around the time the KICKR came out we had a lot of people getting access to power meters for the first time thanks to more affordable single side units like Stages that are subject to their own accuracy issues.
  3. Simple physiological or psychological differences between indoor and outdoor power in general, my n=1 indoor power is always lower than outdoor regardless of trainer. I don't think this a big cause, but just contributes to people's perception that the "numbers don't seem right".
  4. There exists some unknown design defect in all or some KICKRs. It seems possible that this issue did not affect early units since we did not hear of any issues until somewhat later, but it's also possible that the issue has always affected some small percentage of units and it just took time for a sufficient number of units to be sold for the affected user base to reach critical mass.

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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [Sam Apoc] [ In reply to ]
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Sam Apoc wrote:
tgarson wrote:
...but not like having a bunch of people rant on the boards all the time about inaccuracy is great for your product image either.

It's slowtwitch, where everyone complains about power accuracy, belt stretch, and where people use the stretchiest chains in the universe. ;)

Would a stretched chain effect anything other than possibly a power tap hub? The chain stretch is relatively constant anyway.
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [JSully] [ In reply to ]
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No really, I would have won everything but my power was inaccurate and my chain stretched.

Here's a video of the downhill on tacx:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGaKFQdJ3r4
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [Sam Apoc] [ In reply to ]
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Sam Apoc wrote:
No really, I would have won everything but my power was inaccurate and my chain stretched.

Here's a video of the downhill on tacx:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGaKFQdJ3r4
That is awesome. You can let the bike ride all by itself while you are drinking beer!


_____________________
Don't forget to attack!
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [Cobble] [ In reply to ]
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Actually the motorbrake continues to freewheel due to a bug in the Tacx Trainer Software. With the older Fortius, iGenius/Genius SMART, and Vortex/Vortex, if the rider stops pedaling for more than a few seconds, the motorbrake stops SMART, but is not the case for the Neo. According to Tacx, this issue is slated to be fixed in the next update that should be released within a few days and currently the only workarounds are to wait for a flat area to coast to a stop or unplug the Neo.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Last edited by: ms6073: Sep 30, 15 8:28
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [ms6073] [ In reply to ]
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Huh, earlier stuff said that this was a feature, to quote DCR:

Quote:
Then youve got downhill drive this means the unit will actually simulate downhill sections more accurately than a trainer that will just coast to a stop when you stop pedaling going downhill. This same functionality is also found on their new Tacx Genius Smart. Of course, its not quite perfect but its better than instantly stopping.

Or are you saying that it's not implemented correctly? IMHO, this is a nice to have I suppose for a trainer without a flywheel, but if you have sufficient flywheel mass coasting the freewheel on a downhill is really not an issue unless it's a really long one, and that begs the question of why you'd want to waste your time simulating a long descent on a trainer.
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
Or are you saying that it's not implemented correctly? IMHO, this is a nice to have I suppose for a trainer without a flywheel, but if you have sufficient flywheel mass coasting the freewheel on a downhill is really not an issue unless it's a really long one, and that begs the question of why you'd want to waste your time simulating a long descent on a trainer.

There is not much point in simulating downhill riding conditions in my opinion. The real point of using motors is to simulate effects of inertia. In theory flywheel is ideal for it since it reacts instantly. Of course it is hard to get flywheel to a mass enough to simulate actual rider. More then that rider's weight's have huge range and how much do you think adjustable flywheel will cost? In practice barring few tricks related to proper electronic control it is much easier to implement good simulation of cycling using motor then some combination of break and flywheel as almost everybody does. This is what we do in our trainer for example.

http://veloreality.com
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Re: New Tacx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [va1210] [ In reply to ]
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va1210 wrote:

- My first ride was on the Zwift Richmond course, really hammering away on the hill sections, and afterwards my wife complained to me that she could hear the trainer resonating downstairs. This was a real disappointment, as the main reason for buying the Neo was its lack of noise. However, when I was riding in normal trainer mode the next few times (0 gradient) at steady 200ish watts she told me she couldn't hear a thing downstairs. So perhaps the tough hill sections (=high wattage) caused some additional structural vibration, who knows. I did, however, add extra rubber feet under the trainer after my first ride, so those might have made the difference. I still intend to do additional sound testing later.

I know it has only been a few days but wondering if you have any further insight...

I live on a second floor flat, and the quietness of the Neo is one of the things that is very attractive to me.

THanks :)
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [ms6073] [ In reply to ]
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ms6073 wrote:
Actually the motorbrake continues to freewheel due to a bug in the Tacx Trainer Software. With the older Fortius, iGenius/Genius SMART, and Vortex/Vortex, if the rider stops pedaling for more than a few seconds, the motorbrake stops SMART, but is not the case for the Neo. According to Tacx, this issue is slated to be fixed in the next update that should be released within a few days and currently the only workarounds are to wait for a flat area to coast to a stop or unplug the Neo.

So from the reviews so far of Tacx's new very expensive trainer:
1. Already a software bug to deal with (and if you believe tacx will fix within a few days............)
2. Feels like the rear gears/wheel (no actual wheel obviously) is slipping during hard efforts.
etc

I was at my LBS today, they have one in stock, $1800 Canadian + tacx (see what I did there... :)).
It looks pretty darn cool, but I just don't trust Tacx at all....unreliable and buggy software (from personal experience)
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [gibson00] [ In reply to ]
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I have my KICKR working perfectly in combination with my SRM/Perf Pro.

My intervals are DEAD ON compared to my SRM... maybe 1 watt off after a 10-20 minute interval.

I WOULD not dare re-calibrate anything now :)

As far as the TACX... it looks cool... but I'm happy with what I have now that it's finally working.

After reading what you said about bugs in the TACX... I am even happier with my decision.
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [Donzo98] [ In reply to ]
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Donzo98 wrote:
I have my KICKR working perfectly in combination with my SRM/Perf Pro.

My intervals are DEAD ON compared to my SRM... maybe 1 watt off after a 10-20 minute interval.

I WOULD not dare re-calibrate anything now :)

As far as the TACX... it looks cool... but I'm happy with what I have now that it's finally working.

After reading what you said about bugs in the TACX... I am even happier with my decision.

Did you get your Kickr working with it's own power reading/load or do you mean using the SRM to control the load per that setting in Perf Pro?
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