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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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DCR review is available:
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/...erything-wanted.html
(now I want one)

If wahoo does not drop the price, the kickr is dead (in Europe at least).
Tacx Neo is 'silent', cheaper, and everybody knows the brand.
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [the slow guy] [ In reply to ]
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the slow guy wrote:
DCR review is available:
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/...erything-wanted.html
(now I want one)

If wahoo does not drop the price, the kickr is dead (in Europe at least).
Tacx Neo is 'silent', cheaper, and everybody knows the brand.

Huh? Looking at Wahoo's page the KICKR is 1299 euros with a cassette included and has free shipping to most of europe. The Neo is 1399 euros and you still need to buy a cassette. I have no idea what taxes or any other fees you might have to pay to buy the Kickr form the US.

Still with the Neo only being ~150 euros more with cassette I'd still go for that over a Kickr, I think Wahoo is going to have to do something to become more competitive on price in the European market or maybe just sacrifice that market all together.

In the US on the other hand, a $500+ price difference is a pretty big deal and while DCR's first impressions of the Neo are certainly positive, I must have read something completely different than you to take away that it's way better than what else is out there. It's quieter for sure, and to me that's a plus, but for US consumers is it worth $500? Guess time will tell. Speaking of brand recognition, Tacx still has largely the opposite problem in the US. If people know Tacx here, they know it as the funky euro trainer with terrible software and bad customer support. Neither of those may be true anymore, but they still have to overcome that perception.

I have no stake in either company or product for that matter but I don't think we'll see a lot of major changes over this. I don't think Wahoo was ever that popular in Europe and things will probably stay that way, Tacx may gain some traction in the US but there isn't going to be a takeover at that pricepoint.
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't realize the Neo didn't come without a cassette until I read the post from DCR on my RSS feed. I already thought the price point was high for the Neo and really think they should consider pricing it closer to the Kickr, but now knowing that it doesn't have a cassette then I definitely think the price is too high. You're not only talking about needing to buy a casette, but also buying the tools to change a casette, paying a bikewrench to do it for you or bug a friend with the tools. I guess I'm fortunate that I have the tools to do it myself but that wasn't the case 2 years ago when I was in the market for a high-end trainer and went with the Kickr.

Do I value the noise level (or lack there of) of a trainer: Definitely. But at such a high premium? No. I could definitely see the Neo doing extremely well at a lower price point but I think they're over-estimating people's value on the noise level. Or maybe I'm just not the target market.
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [racehd] [ In reply to ]
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It's always semi-interesting to me how different people interpret what I say (or don't say) totally different. :)


-
My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [racehd] [ In reply to ]
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racehd wrote:
I didn't realize the Neo didn't come without a cassette until I read the post from DCR on my RSS feed. I already thought the price point was high for the Neo and really think they should consider pricing it closer to the Kickr, but now knowing that it doesn't have a cassette then I definitely think the price is too high. You're not only talking about needing to buy a casette, but also buying the tools to change a casette, paying a bikewrench to do it for you or bug a friend with the tools. I guess I'm fortunate that I have the tools to do it myself but that wasn't the case 2 years ago when I was in the market for a high-end trainer and went with the Kickr.

Do I value the noise level (or lack there of) of a trainer: Definitely. But at such a high premium? No. I could definitely see the Neo doing extremely well at a lower price point but I think they're over-estimating people's value on the noise level. Or maybe I'm just not the target market.


If I were willing to pay as much money as a Neo/Kickr, I would definitely pay just a tad more for the Neo's quietness! Also, note that the difference in price isn't that big if you order either unit online (note the strong dollar can buy a relatively cheaper Neo priced in Euro). I'm just glad that there is a decent competitor for Kickr now. Maybe now, Wahoo will listen to users asking for a quieter Kickr...

With competition, prices can only trickle down over time (while features and quality go up) - it's all good for consumers
Last edited by: kfmfe04: Sep 2, 15 15:28
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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I find some of the commenter's responses to your post who seem to be really excited about the downhill drive to be rather curious. The majority of my trainer time these days is in Zwift rather than TR or outright wattage/interval based workouts and I still find that to entirely be a non-issue on the Kickr.

Back when I had my CT and was trying to do the virtual IM courses it was a different story, I remember doing the IMWI RCV and found it to be awful since there are a lot of rollers that increased the resistance, but the numerous downhills were still like riding through tar.

With Zwift and the KICKR I suspect it's a combination of both better software and simply having a flywheel with much more inertia, but I'm pretty sure that I coast down the entirety of Watopia's descents as it is and the spinning out at speed feels relatively accurate. Of course if I were simulating a prolonged descent you would run out of coast time, but simulating a long 5-10 minute descent on a trainer sounds like a fabulous waste of time to me and I'm not sure how having a motor drive would in any way change that.

Without a flywheel it makes sense that they'd have a more active mechanism to conserve momentum over simulated negative grades, but it certainly is the feature I am least excited about on the Neo.
Last edited by: tgarson: Sep 2, 15 15:46
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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dcrainmaker wrote:
It's always semi-interesting to me how different people interpret what I say (or don't say) totally different. :)

Ray, thanks for all your reviews

When you initially review product, I know you do a lot to verify the accuracy of the power data.

But in the case of the Kickr, it seems the accuracy has been put in question with subsequent releases of the hardware, shipped out after your initial review. If I believe what is written here, the Kickr reads high. I know a lot of people accept this because they can use their PM to control the Kickr.

I have a CT and I know it won't last forever. But accuracy of the unit is more important than wireless or app compatibility. If it dies tomorrow, I honestly don't know what I'd buy. I'd feel your review may be outdated. Sorry about that.

Do you redo your tests now and then to keep your reviews current ? Do you believe there is an accuracy issue introduced since your review ?

Cheers
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
dcrainmaker wrote:
It's always semi-interesting to me how different people interpret what I say (or don't say) totally different. :)


Ray, thanks for all your reviews

When you initially review product, I know you do a lot to verify the accuracy of the power data.

But in the case of the Kickr, it seems the accuracy has been put in question with subsequent releases of the hardware, shipped out after your initial review. If I believe what is written here, the Kickr reads high. I know a lot of people accept this because they can use their PM to control the Kickr.

I have a CT and I know it won't last forever. But accuracy of the unit is more important than wireless or app compatibility. If it dies tomorrow, I honestly don't know what I'd buy. I'd feel your review may be outdated. Sorry about that.

Do you redo your tests now and then to keep your reviews current ? Do you believe there is an accuracy issue introduced since your review ?

Cheers

It's tricky. I'm in a situation where with the older unit I have I don't see any issues with power accuracy. I'm not clear if things changed since then, or changed temporarily, or what there. Obviously very aware of some of the complaints here.

I talked to them about it again last week at Eurobike, and they noted that as part of some recent firmware updates there was additional logic put in place to better handle some of the shifts people saw. They've now got a person on staff who's entire purpose is to do accuracy testing all day long with an automated rig they've built. Not sure to what extent that has or hasn't addressed those that are having problems (which, I really don't believe is everyone - but rather a subset of folks).

It's really hard re-testing devices down the line with new firmware/revisions/etc, but especially trainers. With watches it's relatively easy because they're small and I can wear multiple devices at once. With a trainer though, it's massive and you can only ride one trainer at once. So if I'm trying to get in testing of other products, usually older products with updates to go the back of the line. Plus, in cases like today I'm travelling again for work - so just back to running for a few days and can't easily bring a KICKR. But I occasionally use the KICKR for shorter power/app testing, so I've been keeping an eye on it still (albeit on earlier hardware).


-
My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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thanks for the quick and straight answer

Maybe next time you speak to them you could ask they create an "Official Wahoo support thread" here so we can interact with them, share experiences and let them respond to these types of issues.
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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I think marcag makes a great point. I want a erg trainer and have the money saved up for one. Only problem is I run a Powertap hub and know I can't use it to controll kickr power. It seems everyone is controlling kickr power via PM because it is not as accurate as promised. If the neo has truly accurate power, lower sound level, and the same 'road' feel as the kickr I'm sure those attributes will be worth the increased price for a lot of buyers.
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [jbugno] [ In reply to ]
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kickr snap would be a solution ...
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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I am a French guy in France. If you want a trainer here in France, it is going to be Tacx or Elite. They are sold in most of the bike stores, these are the two brands we live with. (I bought a KK 5 years ago with a huge discount, don't ask me how, they virtually don't exist here).

My point is that everybody knows Tacx, and 'nobody' knows Wahoo. Tacx Neo is found everywhere on pre-order for 1200e, wait for a >10% discount that will come several times a year, and it is even cheaper.

I could buy something like a bkool trainer online without knowing how it is and feels because it is quite cheap (500e) even if brand is unknown, but not something like a kickr ()

IMO most of the people who ride trainers are annoyed by the noise they make (babies, wife, neighbors, even for sufferfest videos, TV or music). I have never seen a Tacx Neo, but I guess that when you ride a silent trainer once, you never go back : it is simply less stress for everybody.

Kickr is probably close to perfection but now that silent trainers exist, Kickr has a HUGE problem.

I could be wrong of course.


tgarson wrote:
the slow guy wrote:
DCR review is available:
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/...erything-wanted.html
(now I want one)

If wahoo does not drop the price, the kickr is dead (in Europe at least).
Tacx Neo is 'silent', cheaper, and everybody knows the brand.


Huh? Looking at Wahoo's page the KICKR is 1299 euros with a cassette included and has free shipping to most of europe. The Neo is 1399 euros and you still need to buy a cassette. I have no idea what taxes or any other fees you might have to pay to buy the Kickr form the US.

Still with the Neo only being ~150 euros more with cassette I'd still go for that over a Kickr, I think Wahoo is going to have to do something to become more competitive on price in the European market or maybe just sacrifice that market all together.

In the US on the other hand, a $500+ price difference is a pretty big deal and while DCR's first impressions of the Neo are certainly positive, I must have read something completely different than you to take away that it's way better than what else is out there. It's quieter for sure, and to me that's a plus, but for US consumers is it worth $500? Guess time will tell. Speaking of brand recognition, Tacx still has largely the opposite problem in the US. If people know Tacx here, they know it as the funky euro trainer with terrible software and bad customer support. Neither of those may be true anymore, but they still have to overcome that perception.

I have no stake in either company or product for that matter but I don't think we'll see a lot of major changes over this. I don't think Wahoo was ever that popular in Europe and things will probably stay that way, Tacx may gain some traction in the US but there isn't going to be a takeover at that pricepoint.
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [jbugno] [ In reply to ]
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An important point is the accuracy of the power measurement. The KICKR makes it not really good. But since you can combine you SRM with the KICKR you have a very precise measurement. This is a very big plus for the KICKR. Particularly for performance tests.

It would be really interesting how accurately the Tacx NEO is. If the power measurement is more accurate, the KICKR no longer has any advantage.

I hope Wahoo does not lower the prices in Europe. I want to sell my still for a high price :-)

Velo Hero - vendor independent training log and performance analysis software
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [Cyclenerd] [ In reply to ]
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Cyclenerd wrote:
An important point is the accuracy of the power measurement. The KICKR makes it not really good. But since you can combine you SRM with the KICKR you have a very precise measurement. This is a very big plus for the KICKR. Particularly for performance tests.

It would be really interesting how accurately the Tacx NEO is. If the power measurement is more accurate, the KICKR no longer has any advantage.

I hope Wahoo does not lower the prices in Europe. I want to sell my still for a high price :-)


Given that TR and PerfPro both implemented the "use your good PM as a power-setter" feature independent of and before wahoo put out their firmware update, I bet that feature will be usable for any ANT+ computerized trainer for users of TR and PerfPro.

STAC Zero Trainer - Zero noise, zero tire contact, zero moving parts. Suffer in Silence starting fall 2016
Last edited by: AHare: Sep 3, 15 5:38
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [jbugno] [ In reply to ]
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jbugno wrote:
I think marcag makes a great point. I want a erg trainer and have the money saved up for one. Only problem is I run a Powertap hub and know I can't use it to controll kickr power. It seems everyone is controlling kickr power via PM because it is not as accurate as promised. If the neo has truly accurate power, lower sound level, and the same 'road' feel as the kickr I'm sure those attributes will be worth the increased price for a lot of buyers.

I really don't care which trainer people get, and if I were in the market today I'd most likely get the Neo, but the part about how 'everyone' is using external PMs to control the kickr is simply untrue. There is certainly a vocal subset of users on these boards who have had issues, whether or not that subset represents 1% of users or 90% of users is unknown because there is no actual data on this.
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [jbugno] [ In reply to ]
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jbugno wrote:
If the neo has truly accurate power

If the trainer is the only source of power data used for reference, then for that user, wouldn't it always be 100% accurate?
I am really looking forward to the Neo's direct drive electrobrake, but regardless of the technology, if the trainers power data does not align with an external powermeter and there is no method (firmware or application setting) for scaling or calibrating the trainer power output to better match an external powermeter, then regardless of the price, the trainer is really not going to offer much value.


¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Last edited by: ms6073: Sep 3, 15 7:27
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [ms6073] [ In reply to ]
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ms6073 wrote:
if the trainers power data does not align with an external powermeter and there is no method (firmware or application setting) for scaling or calibrating the trainer power output to better match an external powermeter, then regardless of the price, the trainer is really not going to offer much value.

What makes you think that one method of estimating power is inherently more accurate than another? Say your trainer doesn't match your Stages, why do we automatically accept that the Stages is right and the trainer is wrong?

To define the 'value' of a trainer we must first define the 'purpose' of a trainer. Is the purpose to get you a good workout or to capture the most accurate data?

You are entitled to your own opinion, but based on my own near decade of experience training with power and power-trainers the problem of the two not matching exactly is so old and so easily overcome that it's almost impossible for me to understand how we are still having these discussions.
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [Tri-Mot] [ In reply to ]
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I have to agree that the old software was a pain, so much so that I swore I'd sell my Bushido and never buy Tacx again, but then the ipad app came out and I have to admit it was pretty good, at least for me, and I stuck with the trainer. So if Tacx is continuing to improve their software, I'd not immediately rule them out.

What I have found is that my interest in smart trainers in general has waned ... I seem to have moved from liking erg-mode to preferring to use fluid (or soon rollers) and hit my power numbers with my own effort, cadence/gear changes when doing structured workouts.
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [ms6073] [ In reply to ]
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ms6073 wrote:
jbugno wrote:
If the neo has truly accurate power

If the trainer is the only source of power data used for reference, then for that user, wouldn't it always be 100% accurate?

No. It can still be inaccurate. Power is a defined unit, if you do a certain amount of work in a time period you have power. If you had an inaccurate trainer you wouldn't be able to use your trainer power to calculate your power-to-weight ratio... why, because the result would be bogus. I agree that as far as training goes it wouldn't matter if you only rode on the trainer because then it would still be inaccurate however hopefully precise. However as soon as you go out to a race or outside for a ride your 'trainer' power number are useless unless they are accurate or you know there is a fixed offset.
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [jbugno] [ In reply to ]
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jbugno wrote:
ms6073 wrote:
jbugno wrote:
If the neo has truly accurate power

If the trainer is the only source of power data used for reference, then for that user, wouldn't it always be 100% accurate?


No. It can still be inaccurate. Power is a defined unit, if you do a certain amount of work in a time period you have power. If you had an inaccurate trainer you wouldn't be able to use your trainer power to calculate your power-to-weight ratio... why, because the result would be bogus. I agree that as far as training goes it wouldn't matter if you only rode on the trainer because then it would still be inaccurate however hopefully precise. However as soon as you go out to a race or outside for a ride your 'trainer' power number are useless unless they are accurate or you know there is a fixed offset.

I think you missed the point of the pink text
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [Behan] [ In reply to ]
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Niall,

DCRainmaker says the Neo does rock - but only approx 10mm each side of centre. So - better than nothing - but nowhere close to the rock of the KK Rock and Roll, for example.

Cheers,

Sam.

Samuel Arthur Medway
Perth, Western Australia
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
Say your trainer doesn't match your Stages, why do we automatically accept that the Stages is right and the trainer is wrong?
Maybe because most of us spend far more time/ride more miles out on the road and would prefer to depend on the power from an SRM, Stages, or other powermeter rather power data from the trainer. That said, in most cases, it is far easier to update the slope of a powermeter like an SRM than depending on constant spin downs of most trainers (Neo requires/has no spin down mechanism).

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [ms6073] [ In reply to ]
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I got mine here in germany a couple of days ago. Very quite! So far great to ride. Better stand then the Kickr... Spend maybe 10hours on the trainer, no drops or connection Problems in Zwift and Virtualtraining..

Sound File: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1imPP0ERh5f


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Re: New Tracx Neo Smart vs Wahoo Kickr trainers [derpuma] [ In reply to ]
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Nice setup and thanks for the sound file. I give up, what is the thing attached to the board your laptop is on?

Also, what's with the long usb cable? Is it an extension cable? I have my ant+ stick plugged directly in.


--------------------------

TEAM HONEY BADGER
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