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Re: New Crr roller data [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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I added my own data to "the mix":
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/...ollers-chartand.html

The math behind the process is detailed here:
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/...on-rollers-math.html

And, my spreadsheet is located here:
https://docs.google.com/...a3M/edit?usp=sharing

Enjoy! :-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New Crr roller data [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Very nice!!! Love my Vittoria's even more now.
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Re: New Crr roller data [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, thanks for doing this!

That's gotta make you feel pretty good about your narrow Jet 90 with the Conti SS20 that was in the Mavic Wind Tunnel Challenge. Those Mavic Powerlink tires are slooooowwwww.
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Re: New Crr roller data [dmorris] [ In reply to ]
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dmorris wrote:
Wow, thanks for doing this!

That's gotta make you feel pretty good about your narrow Jet 90 with the Conti SS20 that was in the Mavic Wind Tunnel Challenge. Those Mavic Powerlink tires are slooooowwwww.

Yeah...not as bad...but it also has me thinking about which wheelset was the TRUE winner of that "shootout" ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New Crr roller data [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not going to race on a Gator Skin, but I would be interested to know what kind of a number a training tire like has just as a point of reference.
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Re: New Crr roller data [J_R] [ In reply to ]
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J_R wrote:
I'm not going to race on a Gator Skin, but I would be interested to know what kind of a number a training tire like has just as a point of reference.

I think AFM has tested those and they're on his list. BTW, for the better performing tires we've both tested, if I put the "smooth to rough" factor at 1X in my spreadsheet to match how Al's numbers are calculated, then our results actually match up fairly well (i.e. within +/-.0001). It's on the slower rolling tires that we digress, with his measurements showing them to be slightly better than mine. My suspicion is that this is mostly likely due to the material differences of our rollers, with mine being aluminum and his being plastic. I think the slower rolling tires heat up more on his rollers and the higher temps give them a slight "advantage" in that setup.

Here's a handy hint I've developed after doing a bunch of this: If a tire has anywhere on it any sort of wording like "iron cloak", or "hardcase", or "gatorskin", or is touted for it's ability to not flat often...that's a pretty good clue it's not going to roll very well.

It's funny...in the hand, that Kenda Kaliente doesn't feel like it would be so bad of a tire. The casing is relatively thin and actually feels fairly flexible. But it is VERY slow. Of course, one of the features touted for it is a "bead to bead" layer of a kevlar woven belt...the "Iron Cloak" puncture prevention layer! Unfortunately, that's NOT a feature that will result in a low Crr tire.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New Crr roller data [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for taking the time to put that together Tom... great stuff!

I'm surprised at how poorly the new Challenge Criterium did... and the Tangente. Are these clinchers?

The Vittoria Tri is definitely a good tire. It just looks good and is fast too. I think I'll be sticking with the Supersonics, though.
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Re: New Crr roller data [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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It's funny...in the hand, that Kenda Kaliente doesn't feel like it would be so bad of a tire. The casing is relatively thin and actually feels fairly flexible.

I wonder if Kenda makes the Deda HST also. I thought it would be fast based on how it felt and how light it was. But it really sucked. One thing that was evident after I changed it was how noisy it is when out of the saddle. The crummy Attack I have on now is very quiet by comparison.

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Re: New Crr roller data [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to put that together Tom... great stuff!

I'm surprised at how poorly the new Challenge Criterium did... and the Tangente. Are these clinchers?

The Criterium was new out of the box. I've got that as my front tire on my road bike now so I'll probably retest it after a few hundred miles. Don't forget that the Tangente is a 21C model. I've never thought the Tangentes ever "felt" very good on the road even...they're sort of "dead" as compared to other tires with the same casing IME. And yes, they're both clinchers. I put the word "tubular" in the name of any of the tires listed that are tubies.

You'll also probably notice that there are 2 entries for the Challenge Forte tubular. The slower of the 2 was the one I glued up in "stages" last year to see "how much glue was enough", and the faster one was a freshly glued one. It's actually on the Mavic CXR wheel now...I pulled the Yksion off after running riding them twice and then doing the roller test...

rruff wrote:
The Vittoria Tri is definitely a good tire. It just looks good and is fast too. I think I'll be sticking with the Supersonics, though.

I keep thinking how well that tire would work on something like the Bontrager Aeolus 9, or a Firecrest 808...especially considering it's "shape" can't be any worse than the R3 tire shown in this Bontrager plot (and it most likely has a MUCH better Crr):



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New Crr roller data [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Yeah...not as bad...but it also has me thinking about which wheelset was the TRUE winner of that "shootout" ;-)

My money is still on the Zipp Firecrest 808s. In the shootout, the FC were equipped with some pretty unaero Vittoria Corsas EVOs.
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Re: New Crr roller data [Nick_Barkley] [ In reply to ]
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the holy grail of tire knowledge... what tubulars to run with my 808 FC wheels?

Nick_Barkley wrote:
Tom A. wrote:

Yeah...not as bad...but it also has me thinking about which wheelset was the TRUE winner of that "shootout" ;-)


My money is still on the Zipp Firecrest 808s. In the shootout, the FC were equipped with some pretty unaero Vittoria Corsas EVOs.

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Re: New Crr roller data [ericM35-39] [ In reply to ]
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Think you became the authority on polarized training after you read one sportsci.org article?

To answer your question: Vittoria Corsa SL tubular
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Re: New Crr roller data [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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I keep thinking how well that tire would work on something like the Bontrager Aeolus 9, or a Firecrest 808...especially considering it's "shape" can't be any worse than the R3 tire shown in this Bontrager plot (and it most likely has a MUCH better Crr):

That high yaw data is "meh" anyway IMO. If I'm riding a TT and have 15 deg yaw, then I'll probably be too worried about keeping a decent line to care about a little wheel drag.

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Re: New Crr roller data [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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That settles it. Vittoria Evo Tri on the front and Vittoria Evo Slick on the rear!

Thanks for the work Tom!

"One Line Robert"
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Re: New Crr roller data [Nick_Barkley] [ In reply to ]
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It sucks that I have to use pink with most of you

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: New Crr roller data [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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While the Evo slick tested well is it not that aero which is part of the equation too? How well aerodynamically does the Evo Triathlon fair?

Tom, will the Michelin Pro 4 be tested any time soon? I don't race on them but I do train on them.
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Re: New Crr roller data [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
dmorris wrote:
Wow, thanks for doing this!

That's gotta make you feel pretty good about your narrow Jet 90 with the Conti SS20 that was in the Mavic Wind Tunnel Challenge. Those Mavic Powerlink tires are slooooowwwww.


Yeah...not as bad...but it also has me thinking about which wheelset was the TRUE winner of that "shootout" ;-)

Thanks for sharing your numbers, much appreciated :)

I'm thinking about getting a Jet 9 C2 for the front and using SuperSonic 23mm on them. If you look at e.g. the numbers from the Mavic tunnel challenge it doesn't seem like the extra width of the new rims are hurting the drag at low yaw very much and that a tire such as the 23mm SS might more than make up for that in Crr. Plus you get that nice nice dip in drag when the yaw is getting higher (which is admittedly not that often, though).
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Re: New Crr roller data [MTM] [ In reply to ]
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Re: New Crr roller data [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Tom, Awesome data and thanks alot for the detailed info! Do you have any idea where the conti GP 4000s would fit into your graph? Was there a reason you didn't test that specific tire? It seems like a good choice for firecrest wheels considering what Josh from zipp and jordan seem to think. Great work!

"I swim because that's how I get to ride my bike."

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Re: New Crr roller data [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
20mm up front all the way man

I remember Josh Portner talking on here about using 20mm on the 808FC and from his reply I got the feeling that the use of a narrow tire primarily decreased drag at higher yaw angles - perhaps most significantly by increasing the stall angle kind of like what can be seen with R3 vs. R4 Aero on the Aeolus drag charts Tom has posted. Intuitively it does make sense, since the frontal area (which is a bigger determining factor at low yaw) is not increased by a 23mm tire on these wider rims.

If this is indeed the case, a 23mm SuperSonic can very well provide the lowest total drag force (aero + Crr) at low yaw angles compared to a 20mm SuperSonic.

I would love to see a drag chart for 20mm vs. 23mm SuperSonic on 808FC, Jet9 C2, Aeolus 9 D3 or the like. Then we would have a much better idea :)
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Re: New Crr roller data [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff said "I think I'll be sticking with the Supersonics, though. "

Are there any know problems with Continental GP Supersonic availability? My guy says only 7 left in the US and thinks they are being discontinued. I don't know if he has access to all distributor data or just one.

Is this the Supersonic that we are talking about?

I too would like to see the Continental 4000GPS tested.
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Re: New Crr roller data [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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This is all very interesting, but I am wondering if anyone could summarize at this point. What's the final verdict?
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Re: New Crr roller data [MTM] [ In reply to ]
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MTM wrote:

I would love to see a drag chart for 20mm vs. 23mm SuperSonic on 808FC, Jet9 C2, Aeolus 9 D3 or the like. Then we would have a much better idea :)

its come up a few times. like when the stinger crushed the 808 when it had a 21mm tire on it, which voids the warranty on the stinger and rapp got all upset.

a 20mm supersonic on a wide HED Jet fits like a glove while many 23mm tires still have a bit of a bulb shape.



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Re: New Crr roller data [HRPlbg] [ In reply to ]
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Biketiresdirect.com has the Supersonics in both sizes. I have used this tire on the front for the past year including some rough road conditions (St. George) and have had no issues despite its fragile appearance


Coach at KonaCoach Multisport
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Re: New Crr roller data [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks to both your rruff and TomA for picking up this torch from AFM and running (er, rolling) with it!
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