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New Bontrager aero lid.. Some data ;)
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Noted Bontrager (TREK) released their aero lid..
Named after a coffe bod.. Ballista.. ;)
No performance info readily apparent a la Giro for Synthe, Specialized for Evade...
But seeing as it looks almost identical to the Evade I'm guessing similar performance ..
Wouldn't be surprised to see the Specialized legal dept. look into it.. they have been quiet of late..

Price seems a lot lower than the competition tho.. about half the Synthe and 2/3rd of the Evade...
Last edited by: shadwell: Jul 2, 15 15:24
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. no data [shadwell] [ In reply to ]
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Even with data, helmet data should be taken with a grain of salt.

Gotta test or you're just blowin' money.
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. no data [Nick B] [ In reply to ]
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True, but good supporting info from Jim at ERO re the evade being very accommodating across a range of positions..
And its always fun to compare one companies fluff to an others..
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. no data [shadwell] [ In reply to ]
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Errybody sayin' they're the best.
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. no data [Nick B] [ In reply to ]
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Totally.. that info doesn't seem to correlate well with the independent commentary that the Evade test better than the course and air attack...

If it is a wash its still half the price of the Synthe, and 2/3rds that of the evade.. which can only do good things to prices..
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. no data [shadwell] [ In reply to ]
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. no data [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Cheers rruff

They'll sell like hot cakes at that price..

In Aus Evade is 300rrp, Synthe is 400rrp.. !! Course is like rocking horse poo..

It'll be amusing to see what TREK stealers here mark they out at.. I imagine 250plus..
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. no data [shadwell] [ In reply to ]
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I like it, like the price even better and since the LBS I'm friendly with sells only Trek now not specialized once again better.. Think I'm going this route over the evade.
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. no data [shadwell] [ In reply to ]
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It looks good and will bring the cost of everything else down. That's good enough for me. I'm cool with a $100 'aero premium', but $200-300 more is just too much for many of us.

'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. no data [georged] [ In reply to ]
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These are all still 1st generation aero lids. We'll see the tech improve and the prices drop quite a bit over the next couple of years.

That being said, the Bonty seems pretty well designed with regards to profiles, tapers, and vent placement. Not surprising that it tests well. The one piece of fluff seems to be those top louver vents; I doubt they do much except provide an aesthetic that makes the helmet look like less of a dome.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. no data [shadwell] [ In reply to ]
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shadwell wrote:
Noted Bontrager (TREK) released their aero lid..
Named after a coffe bod.. Ballista.. ;)
No performance info readily apparent a la Giro for Synthe, Specialized for Evade...
But seeing as it looks almost identical to the Evade I'm guessing similar performance ..
Wouldn't be surprised to see the Specialized legal dept. look into it.. they have been quiet of late..

Price seems a lot lower than the competition tho.. about half the Synthe and 2/3rd of the Evade...

Reverse engineering these aero lids should be dead easy....then just change a few aesthetics, but don't play to much with the frontal, the venting and the internal air channels and you basically have the same impact without the R&D. The actual unit cost for a $30 walmart helmet and $175-$250 aero road lid should not be "that much different", so in the end, we're not paying for the materials, we're paying for the R&D. If Bonetrager spent a minute fraction on the R&D and essentially copied the key aero features of the Evade I'd expect the price to be even lower, but it is probably $175, because they can command that without getting in the Evade territory. The Evade by now seems to be backed by some decent tunnel data. You can pay the premium for that, or spend a bit less and roll the dice on the Bonetrager copy variant.
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. no data [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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The synic in me agrees totally...

I picture tub of plaster of Paris inverted evade etc.. In the bontrager R&D area ;)
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. no data [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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The price point is probably based on a market analysis (as you point out, R&D is not huge and variable production costs are trivial). The Bonty brand just isn't as strong, and they have to price at a point where their dealers feel they can move a bit of volume. It's priced right around where the Air Attack is retailing for these days; it's a better lid from a lesser brand.

From a design standpoint, I think the lawyers will not be getting involved in this; not winnable. Look at the LG P09/Vortice vs. the Specialized McLaren, also a very similar aesthetic; but not close enough to run afoul of a design patent.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. no data [shadwell] [ In reply to ]
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shadwell wrote:
The synic in me agrees totally...

I picture tub of plaster of Paris inverted evade etc.. In the bontrager R&D area ;)

Right. Just like how they made the latest madone.

"One Line Robert"
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. no data [wsrobert] [ In reply to ]
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Not too quick on the piss take front.. Eh??
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. Some data ;) [shadwell] [ In reply to ]
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I'm fine with that helmet, "faster" than the evade or equal, more than one hundred dollars cheaper. Has some good colors.
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. no data [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Good point of view, make me want to support specialized more!



devashish_paul wrote:
shadwell wrote:
Noted Bontrager (TREK) released their aero lid..
Named after a coffe bod.. Ballista.. ;)
No performance info readily apparent a la Giro for Synthe, Specialized for Evade...
But seeing as it looks almost identical to the Evade I'm guessing similar performance ..
Wouldn't be surprised to see the Specialized legal dept. look into it.. they have been quiet of late..

Price seems a lot lower than the competition tho.. about half the Synthe and 2/3rd of the Evade...


Reverse engineering these aero lids should be dead easy....then just change a few aesthetics, but don't play to much with the frontal, the venting and the internal air channels and you basically have the same impact without the R&D. The actual unit cost for a $30 walmart helmet and $175-$250 aero road lid should not be "that much different", so in the end, we're not paying for the materials, we're paying for the R&D. If Bonetrager spent a minute fraction on the R&D and essentially copied the key aero features of the Evade I'd expect the price to be even lower, but it is probably $175, because they can command that without getting in the Evade territory. The Evade by now seems to be backed by some decent tunnel data. You can pay the premium for that, or spend a bit less and roll the dice on the Bonetrager copy variant.

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. no data [BBLOEHR] [ In reply to ]
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BBLOEHR wrote:
Good point of view, make me want to support specialized more!



devashish_paul wrote:
shadwell wrote:
Noted Bontrager (TREK) released their aero lid..
Named after a coffe bod.. Ballista.. ;)
No performance info readily apparent a la Giro for Synthe, Specialized for Evade...
But seeing as it looks almost identical to the Evade I'm guessing similar performance ..
Wouldn't be surprised to see the Specialized legal dept. look into it.. they have been quiet of late..

Price seems a lot lower than the competition tho.. about half the Synthe and 2/3rd of the Evade...


Reverse engineering these aero lids should be dead easy....then just change a few aesthetics, but don't play to much with the frontal, the venting and the internal air channels and you basically have the same impact without the R&D. The actual unit cost for a $30 walmart helmet and $175-$250 aero road lid should not be "that much different", so in the end, we're not paying for the materials, we're paying for the R&D. If Bonetrager spent a minute fraction on the R&D and essentially copied the key aero features of the Evade I'd expect the price to be even lower, but it is probably $175, because they can command that without getting in the Evade territory. The Evade by now seems to be backed by some decent tunnel data. You can pay the premium for that, or spend a bit less and roll the dice on the Bonetrager copy variant.

When we buy a high end aero road lid, it is like buying software....the cost of the CD it comes on (or the internet connection download) is almost the same for all software. What we are paying for is functionality and the performance that the original innovator paid for through a ton of R&D and practical testing in the field and wind tunnels. If Bonetrager picked up an Evade, looked at the front, channelization, and venting and said, "Yeah, let's do our own version based on the fundamentals of this design, then yeah, they are borderline close to the Chinese guys in Shanghai selling me fake Rolex's for $10.

But hey, if Bonetrager can come out and prove this is all original innovation and has no lineage link over to the Evade, I am all ears, but for the moment, I am leaning towards "link to Evade lineage". But that's just a guy on the internet who owns the Evade and only seen pictures of the Bonetrager. If be pissed if I was over at Specialized though, because it seems like Bonetrager is dropping the market ASP without (maybe) having invested in the R&D. I don't know the answer. I am generally seeing a 5W savings on timed courses and races I have done year over hear over my previous Giro Advantage given my head down position (Giro ended with tail up).

Disclaimer: Paid full retail for my Evade and have no connection to Specialized in any commercial way.
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. Some data ;) [shadwell] [ In reply to ]
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i guess im the only one in thinking it looks plenty different to the evade. And i own the latter too
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. Some data ;) [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]
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coates_hbk wrote:
i guess im the only one in thinking it looks plenty different to the evade. And i own the latter too

I think it does overall as well.

If you smoothed it out and just looked at the shape of both with 0 vents then yes they look similar. But since I"m 99% sure they claimed the evade worked because of the vents and the vents are entirely different, in that regard they are not similar at all.

I also saw pics of a giant helmet, not sure if it is out, that if you smoothed the vents also looks identical.

Much like how a Prius and an Insight have very similar shapes..... which are also similar to both the Evade and Ballista.
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. Some data ;) [mrtopher1980] [ In reply to ]
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mrtopher1980 wrote:
coates_hbk wrote:
i guess im the only one in thinking it looks plenty different to the evade. And i own the latter too


I think it does overall as well.

If you smoothed it out and just looked at the shape of both with 0 vents then yes they look similar. But since I"m 99% sure they claimed the evade worked because of the vents and the vents are entirely different, in that regard they are not similar at all.

I also saw pics of a giant helmet, not sure if it is out, that if you smoothed the vents also looks identical.

Much like how a Prius and an Insight have very similar shapes..... which are also similar to both the Evade and Ballista.

Re: the bold.

It's almost like aerodynamics conspire to make the same shape fast across applications.
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. Some data ;) [AaronT] [ In reply to ]
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I think because you are generally talking low speed fluid dynamics.....once we get into Mach numbers then everything changes :-)
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. Some data ;) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Nope--shapes still converge. Don't most fighter jets of a generation look awfully similar?

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. Some data ;) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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And words mean things, so saying that a prius, aero helmet, raindrop, human powered vehicle, and peregrine falcon in a dive approach the same shape means that that shape is being used in vastly different applications. ;)

As someone who doesn't know much about mach speed aerodynamics, I'd ask if the shapes required are optimal for speed or if there has to be a compromise between speed and stability. An F16 looks like a Concord, looks like B1B, looks like an XB-70 which points to aero being application agnostic. If the shapes are dictated by this compromise, then what would they look like without this constraint? A glance at landspeed record cars shows us being back in similar territory to the aforementioned low speed applications with some concessions made for stability, engine size, and air intake.
Last edited by: AaronT: Jul 3, 15 12:44
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Re: New Bontrager aero lid.. Some data ;) [AaronT] [ In reply to ]
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AaronT wrote:
An F16 looks like a Concord, looks like B1B, looks like an XB-70 which points to aero being application agnostic. If the shapes are dictated by this compromise


Just pointing out that all those, I believe, are inherently unstable. They depends on automated avionics to stay in the air. And have all sorts of other compromises with speed. An air vehicle optimized for speed looks more like a cruise missile. Which looks quite a bit different than planes which have to perform low-speed take-offs and landings.
Last edited by: trail: Jul 3, 15 12:54
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