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Re: New Aero Brakes [jeremyb] [ In reply to ]
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As BMAN has said, we have told him and the rest of the world what ST wants, a commercially available Hooker brake. Heck, if Andy can sell one for $450, commercial ones would sell for $200 front alone. Pretty good ROI considering it could basically use cantilever technology. Plus, people have set up a Hooker in the rear (with some tweaking but could be made to work if redone from scratch):

While that would be sweet, don't discount the applicability of a brake with an offset arm and integral cable stop. For example, I took a couple of pics of the Scott Plasma 3 at Interbike specifically to show Matt how his brake would fit. (I'm sure the Felt frames could take advantage of it as well).




Besides...Matt's brake tests out fairly aero as it is ;-) I'd put it up against that EE brake any day.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Sep 26, 09 17:32
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Re: New Aero Brakes [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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As BMAN has said, we have told him and the rest of the world what ST wants, a commercially available Hooker brake. Heck, if Andy can sell one for $450, commercial ones would sell for $200 front alone. Pretty good ROI considering it could basically use cantilever technology. Plus, people have set up a Hooker in the rear (with some tweaking but could be made to work if redone from scratch):

While that would be sweet, don't discount the applicability of a brake with an offset arm and integral cable stop. For example, I took a couple of pics of the Scott Plasma 3 at Interbike specifically to show Matt how his brake would fit. (I'm sure the Felt frames could take advantage of it as well).




Besides...Matt's brake tests out fairly aero as it is ;-) I'd put it up against that EE brake any day.

I'd pay $1000 are they new?

Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

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Re: New Aero Brakes [Matt Simkins] [ In reply to ]
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I have tried the Hookers. Not the best stoppers, but I didn't get the chance to test them with drag. Pretty rare brakes.
Never actually seen an AX in person. If anyone has a pair, I would love to check them out in a pic or hear how well they work. Even more rare.
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Hi matt I think a similar design to the shimano AXs (I think the hookers work in a similar fashion but have never seen one in the flesh or its internals so I am guessing) but with todays length brake shoes, and perhaps a bridge on the front to stiffen them up would probably work quite well. also I think these could be used as normal with cable housing on the rear or without a cable housing on the front using a cross style cable hanger to make them a little more aero. If I can work out how to post pics on here I will I will post a few pics of the AXs with some badly drawn modifications on them.

M@TTY
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Re: New Aero Brakes [m@tty] [ In reply to ]
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I have tried the Hookers. Not the best stoppers, but I didn't get the chance to test them with drag. Pretty rare brakes.
Never actually seen an AX in person. If anyone has a pair, I would love to check them out in a pic or hear how well they work. Even more rare.
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Hi matt I think a similar design to the shimano AXs

The AX's are much larger than a hooker caliper, I had one

The Tektro/oval modification is likely as aero as the hooker, or very very close
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Re: New Aero Brakes [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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I was also hoping a new design would be slimmed down alot to make it more aero thats why I suggested a bridge to stiffen it up!
I was not suggesting a carbon copy.
something inbetween a hooker and an ax that stops well and could be used either with or without a cable housing.
I know a lot of people want aero at the expense of stopping power but I personally want both.

Q) If you look at each brake, Matts design the Hooker the AX and the Tektro all have good and bad points, If you could take all the good points put them together what do you have?

A) perhaps the ultimate Aero Brake?

M@TTY
Last edited by: m@tty: Sep 28, 09 7:01
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Re: New Aero Brakes [m@tty] [ In reply to ]
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I would love to see the pics, but they have to be on the web somewhere.
Slowtwitch pulls the picture from a link, possibly to save server space. I had to upload the pics to a bogus page on the Simkins Designs website to post the prototype picture.
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Re: New Aero Brakes [Matt Simkins] [ In reply to ]
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I will try and get the pics on line later in the week pretty busy at work untill thursday!
I will email you them as well and a few design sketches that I have in my head at the moment!
M@TTY
Last edited by: m@tty: Sep 28, 09 8:04
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Re: New Aero Brakes [Matt Simkins] [ In reply to ]
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I would love to see the pics, but they have to be on the web somewhere.
Slowtwitch pulls the picture from a link, possibly to save server space. I had to upload the pics to a bogus page on the Simkins Designs website to post the prototype picture.

http://www.flickr.com/...s/72157622473081434/

Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

Vintage Cervelo: A Resource
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Re: New Aero Brakes [m@tty] [ In reply to ]
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M@TTY
There was some comparative testing between the "Egg Brake" and a center pull brake on the front by Tom A. The Egg Brake actually had a lower Cda than the center pull that was tested (not an AX per se), but that difference was well within the variation of the test. I cannot say with statistical certainty which had lower drag, but this does shoe that a side pull brake can have similar drag performance to a conventional center pull, and possibly better.

One overlooked aspect of the brake design with respect to aerodynamics is the separation between the brake arms, the fork, and the tire. The tire creates much turbulence and the gap between the brake arms and the fork should be eliminated. Shimano addressed this with the AX brakes by having the brake arms extend all the way back to the fork. I tried to mimic this affect by making the trailing edge of the brake extend back to the fork with a thin shell of aluminum.

Another improvement is to get rid of all of the edges. Bicycle brakes tend to have many kooks and crannies, but you general do not see aerodynamic things like airplanes or cars with all of the springs, bolts, and pivots exposed.


Last edited by: Matt Simkins: Sep 28, 09 20:01
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Re: New Aero Brakes [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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do you really expect me to take advice on brakes from a guy with his brake levers on his extensions
I can see from your pics that safety does not seem to concern you ( I dont even think the great mr Obree would risk that one)

M@TTY

Boy, I'd hate to know what you think of my set-up:

You must have cojones de heirro. (nuts of steel (ok actually iron.))

_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.
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Re: New Aero Brakes [Matt Simkins] [ In reply to ]
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Hi matt
some interesting facts there I must admit I really like your design and I am pretty glad you stuck with it alot of people on here have been posting that they want a center pull similar to the hooker but I think they would be compromising braking performance and safety for the sake of aero gains that amount to fractions of a second( I can picture the revues for this brake now, They look nice but dont work. In a similar style to the use tula bars very aero but every review I have ever read has slated the aero brake levers and reviews sell products).
I want a compromise of aero and braking performance, if you are riding a more technical course having a brake that doesnt inspire confidence can actually slow you down. I did have a few ideas floating around in my head for a center pull with a similar braking mechanism to the brake in the new Trek Speed Concept integrated front brake but I dont think it would have the same performance as a side pull (in the same way as the tektro or oval brake doesnt have the same performance as the specialized transition brake as it doesnt use the forks to stiffen it up).
Im sure I will get some comments from people saying that their center pulls work just fine but have they tried them at 35mph on carbon rims in wet conditions when a car has just pulled out on you( a regular occurance in british time trials), I have on quite a few ocasions and mine dont( Im not sure which squeals are louder mine or the brakes).

M@TTY
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Re: New Aero Brakes [docfuel] [ In reply to ]
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do you really expect me to take advice on brakes from a guy with his brake levers on his extensions
I can see from your pics that safety does not seem to concern you ( I dont even think the great mr Obree would risk that one)

M@TTY

Boy, I'd hate to know what you think of my set-up:

You must have cojones de heirro. (nuts of steel (ok actually iron.))

As someone else put it: handling skills or hospital bills. :-)
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Re: New Aero Brakes [Matt Simkins] [ In reply to ]
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M@TTY
There was some comparative testing between the "Egg Brake" and a center pull brake on the front by Tom A. The Egg Brake actually had a lower Cda than the center pull that was tested (not an AX per se), but that difference was well within the variation of the test. I cannot say with statistical certainty which had lower drag, but this does shoe that a side pull brake can have similar drag performance to a conventional center pull, and possibly better.

One overlooked aspect of the brake design with respect to aerodynamics is the separation between the brake arms, the fork, and the tire. The tire creates much turbulence and the gap between the brake arms and the fork should be eliminated. Shimano addressed this with the AX brakes by having the brake arms extend all the way back to the fork. I tried to mimic this affect by making the trailing edge of the brake extend back to the fork with a thin shell of aluminum.

Another improvement is to get rid of all of the edges. Bicycle brakes tend to have many kooks and crannies, but you general do not see aerodynamic things like airplanes or cars with all of the springs, bolts, and pivots exposed.


What centerpull was it tested against?

Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

Vintage Cervelo: A Resource
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Re: New Aero Brakes [m@tty] [ In reply to ]
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Im sure I will get some comments from people saying that their center pulls work just fine but have they tried them at 35mph on carbon rims in wet conditions when a car has just pulled out on you( a regular occurance in british time trials), I have on quite a few ocasions and mine dont( Im not sure which squeals are louder mine or the brakes).

Sounds to me like you might want to reconsider your wheel braking surface choice if that's a common occurrence for you ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New Aero Brakes [jeremyb] [ In reply to ]
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M@TTY
There was some comparative testing between the "Egg Brake" and a center pull brake on the front by Tom A. The Egg Brake actually had a lower Cda than the center pull that was tested (not an AX per se), but that difference was well within the variation of the test. I cannot say with statistical certainty which had lower drag, but this does shoe that a side pull brake can have similar drag performance to a conventional center pull, and possibly better.

One overlooked aspect of the brake design with respect to aerodynamics is the separation between the brake arms, the fork, and the tire. The tire creates much turbulence and the gap between the brake arms and the fork should be eliminated. Shimano addressed this with the AX brakes by having the brake arms extend all the way back to the fork. I tried to mimic this affect by making the trailing edge of the brake extend back to the fork with a thin shell of aluminum.

Another improvement is to get rid of all of the edges. Bicycle brakes tend to have many kooks and crannies, but you general do not see aerodynamic things like airplanes or cars with all of the springs, bolts, and pivots exposed.


What centerpull was it tested against?

I can handle that one (although it was probably obvious knowing who did the comparison). It was compared to my Tektro "mod" brake. They were apparently nominally within .001 m^2 of CdA of each other...which I would call basically tied. Granted, there are "smoother" centerpull options out there, but nobody was willing to lend me a Hooker for the test ;-)

One thing to note though, is that due to the funky brake mount area on my P2K's Chord fork, the rear edges of Matt's brake didn't sit very close to the fork legs. If anything, that could have slightly degraded it's performance.

Both were compared to a Cervelo Mach2 dual pivot brake and they showed a decent drag gain over that...I won't reveal much more. We can all wait for the "final report" that Matt's still working on :-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New Aero Brakes [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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What centerpull was it tested against?


One thing to note though, is that due to the funky brake mount area on my P2K's Chord fork, the rear edges of Matt's brake didn't sit very close to the fork legs. If anything, that could have slightly degraded it's performance.

Both were compared to a Cervelo Mach2 dual pivot brake and they showed a decent drag gain over that...I won't reveal much more. We can all wait for the "final report" that Matt's still working on :-)

Could tape be applied to fill this gap?

Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

Vintage Cervelo: A Resource
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Re: New Aero Brakes [jeremyb] [ In reply to ]
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What centerpull was it tested against?


One thing to note though, is that due to the funky brake mount area on my P2K's Chord fork, the rear edges of Matt's brake didn't sit very close to the fork legs. If anything, that could have slightly degraded it's performance.

Both were compared to a Cervelo Mach2 dual pivot brake and they showed a decent drag gain over that...I won't reveal much more. We can all wait for the "final report" that Matt's still working on :-)

Could tape be applied to fill this gap?

Sure...but that sounds like a thing to try in a wind tunnel test. I didn't have the time to do so during my testing. Besides, I don't know the results until I get home and analyze the power files.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New Aero Brakes [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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nobody was willing to lend me a Hooker for the test ;-)

Wait a sec - didn't I offer to loan you one of mine to test? If not, I meant to (and it is still available if you are interested).
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Re: New Aero Brakes [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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nobody was willing to lend me a Hooker for the test ;-)

Wait a sec - didn't I offer to loan you one of mine to test? If not, I meant to (and it is still available if you are interested).

That was during your run-up to the Record Challenge at Moriarty. IIRC, you didn't want to pull it off before that...and I was impatient ;-)

edit: And besides, since it's actually MY brake, you probably didn't want to risk the possibility of not getting it back! :-P

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Sep 29, 09 7:56
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Re: New Aero Brakes [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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That was during your run-up to the Record Challenge at Moriarty. IIRC, you didn't want to pull it off before that

Ah, right. Well, you can't say that I didn't offer! :-)
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Re: New Aero Brakes [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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No I just want a caliper thats aero and works
I swap over my AXs for chorus calipers if its raining or its a tecnical course for peace of mind and have no problems stopping
But it would be nice not to have to!

M@TTY
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Re: New Aero Brakes [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Can't you just file off the little tabs on your Chord fork? I did that on mine to get an MRC mounted up nice and snug, which worked quite well at the time.

Chris
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Re: New Aero Brakes [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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That was during your run-up to the Record Challenge at Moriarty. IIRC, you didn't want to pull it off before that

Ah, right. Well, you can't say that I didn't offer! :-)

...and I didn't!

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New Aero Brakes [m@tty] [ In reply to ]
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No I just want a caliper thats aero and works
I swap over my AXs for chorus calipers if its raining or its a tecnical course for peace of mind and have no problems stopping
But it would be nice not to have to!

Two things: First, do you have the same pads on both brakes? Second, I wouldn't judge all centerpull brakes based on the AXs. For example, compare the length of the "arm" between where the actuating force is input and the pivot on the AX and the Tektro style brake...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New Aero Brakes [chicanery] [ In reply to ]
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Can't you just file off the little tabs on your Chord fork? I did that on mine to get an MRC mounted up nice and snug, which worked quite well at the time.

Chris

Sure...and I probably would have if it was my own brake I was mounting up there. But, I was just trying to do a comparative test and didn't feel like filing those "tabs" off...especially since the fork crown is all black.

My purpose in mentioning it wasn't to say it can't fit up nicely to a chord fork, I was just explaining that there could have been some things about the test setup that may have been slightly detrimental to the Egg brake.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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