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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [RandyS] [ In reply to ]
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RandyS wrote:
Billabong wrote:
Is anyone really expecting to get a full refund?


I didn't sign up for this but whenever I don't get the service I pay for, I dispute the charge with the credit card company. If IM doesn't provide info in a reasonable timeframe, you have that option.

How far can you go back?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I got my email with my refund today. I'll have to go check but it appears to include the active.com fee as well.
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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [triannasaurus] [ In reply to ]
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triannasaurus wrote:
Not really. Given that nearly all of WSEM's website have gone completely dark, I suspect that there will be no refunds to be had. I'm not counting on getting my money back. However, good brand management would dictate that a fair effort would be made to compensate those athletes who paid the $325 entry fee--perhaps by giving athletes "free" entry into other IM 70.3 events (given that we've already paid--and yes, I realize that we haven't paid that specific race director--but that would be up to WTC to figure out). They did it in the case of Miami 70.3.

I imagine money will be coming back. Maybe not all, but some. Unless it's all been spent and then cbrodsky is gonna find himself in a world of hurt. But he isn't going to successfully pocket the money himself without lawsuits. He'll have both athletes and WTC up his ass to recoup whatever's left. His only hope would be to fly the country, but I really doubt any of that would happen, which is why I expect that at least partial refunds will be coming.

Saw this link re: Brodsky's checkered past in the comments section on dcrainmaker's blog on the topic.
http://www.wjla.com/articles/2011/05/former-d-c-alcohol-official-vows-to-fight-police-impersonation-charges-61615.html
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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [kny] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I saw that post, too--hence my suspicions. Odd that people who were signed up for the cancelled DC Triathlon are only now getting their refunds--although there are still many who are waiting. This is pure speculation on my part, but one wonders if Brodsky was borrowing from Peter (IM 70.3 National Harbor) to pay Paul (DC Triathlon refunds). Makes you wonder when they go completely dark and don't answer any inquiries. Usually, it's the sign of a company that's in financial trouble and closed. Even if I don't ever recoup my money, it would be nice to have some answers and put speculation to rest.
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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
RandyS wrote:
I didn't sign up for this but whenever I don't get the service I pay for, I dispute the charge with the credit card company. If IM doesn't provide info in a reasonable timeframe, you have that option.


How far can you go back?

I have never had to do this for a race but I have gone back ~1 year for past charges. I once happened to look at an old statement that had ~$100 charged to a cheap Chinese restaurant. I can't imagine who could eat that much but I knew it wasn't me. I called Capital One and the charge came off. A couple months later I received a notice that the dispute was resolved. The merchant can dispute your claim but they don't want to risk being labeled as a front for fraudulent charges. If you bail on a race and dispute the charge, you may get away with it but may also get banned from using that merchant (WTC, Active, whoever). But if your claim is legit, then stand up for your rights. I doubt WTC would fight very hard as they likely don't want additional bad publicity.
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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [triannasaurus] [ In reply to ]
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" We are entitled to answers."


I am sorry, but says who? This sucks yes. It's a huge inconvenience for anyone involved. But this stuff happens and you are not entitled to anything - expect a refund.

You don't like it? Don't do WTC races. Don't do races put on or managed by WSEM. You have choices, you have options. Are they great, no. But you have them. Just as WSEM/WTC has the choice to not provide you with a reason.



Yes, it sucks. But entitlement, really?




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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [Hillzboo2] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone else wondering what that means for the future of the Nation's Triathlon? I know that is a big and popular race, but what do you all think? It's always been a personal favorite of mine so I hope it doesn't get canceled too.
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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [Theodore] [ In reply to ]
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Theodore wrote:
Anyone else wondering what that means for the future of the Nation's Triathlon? I know that is a big and popular race, but what do you all think? It's always been a personal favorite of mine so I hope it doesn't get canceled too.

Set Up Events is now in Virginia and Maryland. I'm sure they would jump on the chance to produce a successor event.

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [Hillzboo2] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, Hillzboo2--"entitled". I stand by that word. When the company putting on the race and claiming to offer refunds suddenly shuts down all its websites, closes its offices, doesn't answer its phones or e-mails--all of which doesn't bode well for recouping our money--then yes, we're entitled to answers. I've been in this sport for over 20 years and have had races cancelled on me. This isn't my first rodeo. But in every one of those instances, a note went out to all athletes explaining what happened--as well as assurances that money would be refunded. What they didn't do is shutter their doors before refunds were paid and refuse to answer even the simplest questions. I've never bitched about cancelled races before--I realize stuff happens. But to handle this cancellation in such a shady way is beyond reasonable. People are angry not because the race was cancelled. They're angry because no one at WSEM is responding and they've shut down all means of communication--including their offices. And I'm not blaming WTC. They were caught off guard, as well. At least they've had the decency to try and respond to athletes--although they don't seem to have an answer as to why it was cancelled, either.
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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [triannasaurus] [ In reply to ]
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I just got an email from Setup Events, they are giving those of us registerd for National Harbor discounts to five races $10 off to sprints and $20 for Halfs if you register by May 16. Doing Patriots Half myself, glad I did not register last night.

All I Wanted Was A Pepsi, Just One Pepsi

Team Zoot, Team Zoot Mid-Atlantic

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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [triannasaurus] [ In reply to ]
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Actually this IS the WTC's fault.

They contracted / bought the race.
They hired directly or indirectly the race organization running the race

If they put "their name" on it, it is their race.

Maybe if the WTC was more concerned about the QUALITY of the races, instead of promoting McMdot and over 1 Billion Races sold, things like this would not happen.

Seems like on a yearly basis a couple WTC races are cancelled and it is "always" someone else fault.
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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [Billabong] [ In reply to ]
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Billabong wrote:
I just got an email from Setup Events, they are giving those of us registerd for National Harbor discounts to five races $10 off to sprints and $20 for Halfs if you register by May 16. Doing Patriots Half myself, glad I did not register last night.

Guess this is why I try very hard now to just sign up for a race on race day. I am tired of losing money on races that I am sick or hurt for, or become duathlons, etc.
Very few races sell out that I really care about doing luckily.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [Theodore] [ In reply to ]
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Theodore wrote:
Anyone else wondering what that means for the future of the Nation's Triathlon? I know that is a big and popular race, but what do you all think? It's always been a personal favorite of mine so I hope it doesn't get canceled too.

I believe they sold Nations Tri to Competitor group in February so new management.
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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [Maui5150] [ In reply to ]
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Maui5150 wrote:
Actually this IS the WTC's fault.


They contracted / bought the race.
They hired directly or indirectly the race organization running the race

If they put "their name" on it, it is their race.

Maybe if the WTC was more concerned about the QUALITY of the races, instead of promoting McMdot and over 1 Billion Races sold, things like this would not happen.

Seems like on a yearly basis a couple WTC races are cancelled and it is "always" someone else fault.


You may have something here. WTC did contract this race from Brodsky and WSEM knowing (presumably) Brodsky's past and knowing (presumably) he was currently involved in a lawsuit regarding this past. I have no idea whether this active suit against Brodsky has anything to do with WSEM fleeing the coop, but the suit is out there and it is active. I still kind of feel that some reasonable explanation will come out, although with each passing day it seems less and less likely.

http://workmancompattorney.net/...y-among-others/3555/
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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [kny] [ In reply to ]
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It all comes to this... If WTC Brands the race, and sells the race... it is THEIR RACE.

Some race orgs RUN ALL of their races. You go to one event or another, the same people are setting up and running the race.

WTC for the most part CONTRACTS out most of their races. They may have some media folks that will be at the race, and they may have some "officers" there, but the RD and general responsibilities are contract. It does not matter. It is up to them to make sure they have hired/contracted well as well as their responsibility to check in and assure the race is up to their quality.

I am not surprised with what happened with National Harbor 70.3, because, in my opinion, and it is just that... WTC is more concerned with number of races and trying to own all the races they can, and less about the QUALITY of the race experience.
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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [Maui5150] [ In reply to ]
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Maui5150 wrote:
Actually this IS the WTC's fault.

They contracted / bought the race.
They hired directly or indirectly the race organization running the race

If they put "their name" on it, it is their race.

Maybe if the WTC was more concerned about the QUALITY of the races, instead of promoting McMdot and over 1 Billion Races sold, things like this would not happen.

Seems like on a yearly basis a couple WTC races are cancelled and it is "always" someone else fault.

I would have (until the last two months) argued that WTC did find a pretty high-quality race group with WSEM. Aside from what seemed to be their goal of the largest triathlon on earth, they did execute their races spot-on and at a world-class level. I don't think WTC could have found (again, up until now) a better partner out there to maintain quality. Obviously, something changed - but rewinding to last fall - I'm not sure anyone could have predicted that.

Now, I think there are things WTC could/should do around minimum bar for new races. For example, requiring proof of permits, proof that courses have been scouted out, and proof of 'validation' from the local city/county. None of which appeared to ever occur here.


-
My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [Maui5150] [ In reply to ]
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Maui5150 wrote:
It all comes to this... If WTC Brands the race, and sells the race... it is THEIR RACE.

Some race orgs RUN ALL of their races. You go to one event or another, the same people are setting up and running the race.

WTC for the most part CONTRACTS out most of their races. They may have some media folks that will be at the race, and they may have some "officers" there, but the RD and general responsibilities are contract. It does not matter. It is up to them to make sure they have hired/contracted well as well as their responsibility to check in and assure the race is up to their quality.

I am not surprised with what happened with National Harbor 70.3, because, in my opinion, and it is just that... WTC is more concerned with number of races and trying to own all the races they can, and less about the QUALITY of the race experience.

I understand what you are saying about WTC growing so big, but I think they really do care about the competitors. At least some of their RDs do: Beth A. at Louisville (a KQ athlete herself), KJ at Texas (he posts on here) and supposedly Frank at the "new" IM Silverman/IM Nevada/IM Las Vegas.

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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I generally agree. I cannot comment on WSEM, since I am generally unfamiliar with them.

I can look at Ironman China, Ironman 70.3 China, and National Harbor 70.3 and see that there is a trend with not having paperwork in place, and the pass-the-buck style leads to late cancellations. We have Clearwater 5150, which shows that they would rather cancel a race if it is not profitable and screw the athletes who have committed, rather than taking a temporary loss, running an amazing race, and building interest for a future year.

Ironman Japan I will give a pass

Poconos 70.3?? That race was a cluster F since inception and the course was still in flux 3 months out. One would hope that when a "race" is "announced, they would have a solid idea of the course, logistics and permits, but this clearly did not seem the case. As someone who watched the course unfold, there were even times where the bike course in its iterations "crossed" over itself. It is bad enough when a bike in and run out cross over, but when a bike course crosses itself? That is a disaster in the making. Proof is in the Schwaggle so when you see an "Ironman" event being sold on Schwaggle at a 40% discount, that can tell you that the feedback on the race was poor.

Is NOLA 70.3 a well designed race? Back to Back years with cancelled swim, and not overly severe conditions which tells me more that the course is questionable for the numbers.

Similarly, with Providence 70.3 swimming in the cess pool and charging for the finish line shuttle? Charging? For a shuttle???? Really???

And what about Miami 70.3? That race was plain dangerous given the roads and lack of course hydration. And yes, despite Ironman passing the buck stating it was poorly run by the RD and they would implement changes, the early-bird sign-up email came from the same RD

See a trend? Is it any coincidence as they have bought out races left and right, the number of cancelled or poorly run races has risen. If anything the trend is escalating, not improving. I won't even touch the lack of timing in most cases. It is clear that there are some "A" races, and some others that are the ugly bastard cousin no one likes to acknowledge... And to me... a branded race should be a branded race... If you buy into the Ironman experience, it should be consistent, which clearly it is not. To me it is a sign of over expansion, poor management, and lack of caring.
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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [Theodore] [ In reply to ]
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The Nations Triathlon is no longer owned by WSEM. It's owned by CGI. Thje race date is outside of the window that the National Park Service says races can be held.

Theodore wrote:
Anyone else wondering what that means for the future of the Nation's Triathlon? I know that is a big and popular race, but what do you all think? It's always been a personal favorite of mine so I hope it doesn't get canceled too.


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [japarker24] [ In reply to ]
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japarker24 wrote:

I understand what you are saying about WTC growing so big, but I think they really do care about the competitors. At least some of their RDs do: Beth A. at Louisville (a KQ athlete herself), KJ at Texas (he posts on here) and supposedly Frank at the "new" IM Silverman/IM Nevada/IM Las Vegas.

Can't comment on Beth A, though the race two years ago was poorly run and dangerous. They ran out of fluids, and saw more than a few comments about locals on the course who picked up water. Aid stations running out of water? How hard is it to see the weather is going to be hot and ensure you have more than enough? That was 2010.

I have done two KJ races with mixed reviews. Not overly thrilled with the Austin course, but the race was well run. Timberman in 2010 was a wreck, with two hour shuttle waits, and KJ had cancelled many buses in the morning. The Timberman course is overcrowded, and would be a much nicer race at 1800 than 2500+. This is one of those races where where you walk around the expo and hear all of the old timers talking about how nice the race was pre-WTC and how this time is likely their last. Last year when I was doing some photography on the course it was not uncommon to see pelotons of riders, and one of my favorite sites was two women riding side by side having a conversation. I had seen one USAT judge with the lead men rider, another with the women, and then did not see another official for most of the the AG. I did see the two judges on as the riders made their return trip, so was a crowded draft-fest.

A classic example of Pre-post WTC is Timberman as well. Find bike shirts and gear from the pre-wtc races and they are awesome. The WTC version... cheap cookie-cutter

I pretty much grew up on the Timberman course, but will not do the race again until it has much more reasonable numbers as well as a clear indication that it is better run. The great thing about Timberman is the locals on the run course... They are the ones that make the run so great.
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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [ In reply to ]
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Patriots half in williamsburg is a must do. Great road course. My bet is most people will beshocked how.fast theyride there. I love it. Savageman is also a greatrace. Both are well run with excellent aid and volunteers. Setup events is topnotch and so is savageman (although their shirt is.odd).
Wtc is waste of money.
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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [littlefoot] [ In reply to ]
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I have heard excellent things on both Patriot and Savageman... Savageman arguably is one of toughest races in the US.
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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [littlefoot] [ In reply to ]
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littlefoot wrote:
Setup events is topnotch and so is savageman
(although their shirt is.odd).
Wtc is waste of money.


Spaz is offended. Don't piss off Spaz.
http://www.savagemantri.org/.../640x384/KG_5169.jpg
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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [Maui5150] [ In reply to ]
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Maui5150 wrote:
....

Poconos 70.3?? That race was a cluster F since inception and the course was still in flux 3 months out. One would hope that when a "race" is "announced, they would have a solid idea of the course, logistics and permits, but this clearly did not seem the case. As someone who watched the course unfold, there were even times where the bike course in its iterations "crossed" over itself. It is bad enough when a bike in and run out cross over, but when a bike course crosses itself? That is a disaster in the making. Proof is in the Schwaggle so when you see an "Ironman" event being sold on Schwaggle at a 40% discount, that can tell you that the feedback on the race was poor.

Is NOLA 70.3 a well designed race? Back to Back years with cancelled swim, and not overly severe conditions which tells me more that the course is questionable for the numbers.

Similarly, with Providence 70.3 swimming in the cess pool and charging for the finish line shuttle? Charging? For a shuttle???? Really???

......
See a trend? Is it any coincidence as they have bought out races left and right, the number of cancelled or poorly run races has risen. If anything the trend is escalating, not improving. I won't even touch the lack of timing in most cases. It is clear that there are some "A" races, and some others that are the ugly bastard cousin no one likes to acknowledge... And to me... a branded race should be a branded race... If you buy into the Ironman experience, it should be consistent, which clearly it is not. To me it is a sign of over expansion, poor management, and lack of caring.

I guess I should skip those races even though the WTC is offering discounts and even steeper $65 discount on the Poconos.
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Re: National Harbor 70.3 canned [masterslacker] [ In reply to ]
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About that...I just tried to register for Poconos 70.3 using their $65 code and it didn't work. Has anyone had success with this?

Does Active have customer support or am I SOL? I want to enter this race.
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