I guess the question though is which is 'the angle' being referred to!

That and I believe he rides a P2 or P3.
I may be wrong, but the seat tube is not a straight line to the BB.
So as someone else mentioned you get steeper as you raise the saddle.

P3 goes straight up. P2 doesn’t. So shifting the saddle back is correct.

The bigger problem is he’s trying to fix one thing at a time and test instead of scrapping the whole position get a good fit and then start fiddling with the crank length a bit.

Him changing the crank doesn’t fix any other issues with his bike position.

Yep, P2

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Here is a video from my bike fit I had on Wed. The seat was moved back -50mm from the BB. Stem was changed from a 140 to a 100mm. Cranks 175mm for this fitting.
Comment away :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dan please shut this thread down...

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Saddle is low.

I continue to collect data from HR and crank length. This morning was the first time I have tried 165 cranks.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Independent of crank arm length, which I have now tried from 200 to 160, it looks like I might be more efficient at lower RPM's.
So are going to try and give this a shot at my next race Sunday, gearing to try and stay in the 70 to 80 rpm range.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Inputs I have gotten from Frank and asked to post:


Statement of Frank Day regarding the current thread started by Dave Campbell about the crank length testing we are doing. I would respond directly but I have been banned for being too controversial. Anyhow, I am amused that it seems not a single one of you seems to understand what I am doing even though it is based on well establish science. Dave doesn’t understand completely although I think it is starting to make sense to him.

Currently the data we have gathered indicates that he could possibly gain 27% more power racing on 175’s (if he is smart) over what he could have done on 200’s. That represents a 7% increase in speed. There are some confounding factors that could either decrease or increase the change. (Changed aero and inconsistent data). Either way it is a work in progress and the results will be known next spring when the racing starts.

Since it is not possible for me to have an open dialogue with any of you here I guess this is the best you will get from me.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Most people are more efficient at lower RPM. Doesn’t mean you’ll be faster though.

I guess Chrissie doing 70 RPM meant she was slower on the bike in Hawaii?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Slower than what? Herself at higher RPM? Since you don't know how fast she would have been at higher RPM, saying that she was faster than the rest of the pack because she was doing low RPM is ignoring a mountain of other variables. gregf83 said that you might not be faster than yourself at higher RPM, not that you wouldn't be faster than other athletes.

Incidentally, Sutto believes very much in low RPM to benefit the run.

I'm curious what the "well establish science" is that Frank refers to.

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Why does the phrase "The blind leading the blind(er)" come to mind?? :-/

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LOL I'm still secretly hoping that the answer is machine learning and they're just tweaking variables randomly.

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Coach at TriForce Triathlon Team: https://www.triforceteam.com

Unless Chrissie optimized her cadence for maximum efficiency, it's an irrelevant data point.

If you believe maximizing efficiency on the bike will minimize bike and run time then have at it. Studies have found, for older cyclists, efficiency peaks in the 40-60 range. No idea what effect that might have on your run though.

Do you have a link to any articles on your sutto comment. Since my data is pointing to I am more effective at lower RPM's, I am interesting in getting more data since I have always heard that biking with faster RPM's save the legs for the run

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Frank Day's is telling me Early analysis looks pretty definitive that should eventually lead to an ideal crank length.

I just keep testing away. What was interesting in my first HR test with going from low to high RPM is my HR stayed basically the same. Need to do
more tests to see if this stays the case. Weird

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

What is your sustainable power during a 20min max effort? How is Frank determining that you will produce more power? He says 27% more power, more compared to what?? Are you still testing in erg mode??

Sounds like faulty data is leading to faulty conclusions that you and frank will incorrectly use to make changes to crank length. Just get a bike fit and adjust crank length to get into an optimal position.

Dave - assuming your prior position wasn't absurdly awful -
there is NOTHING that you or anybody can change on your bike that will incease your power by 27%. Most especially anything related to cranks.

Now, it is entirely possible to modify your position to go faster on the watts you actually put out, but no silver bullet fix to magically put out a crapton more power.

If such a thing existed, those who did it would utterly dominate all the events they entered.
Until such time as everybody else also did it, and leveled the playing field again.

Spoiler - there is NO silver bullet.

There is the ability to modify ones position to be aero AF, and go as fast as possible at whatever wattage you put out.
Pursue the latter.

Crank length is a red herring.

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float , hammer , and jog

Here's a link to a decent summary of Sutto's opinion on the matter:

http://trisutto.com/...bike-cadence-debate/

And one from Cam Watt, one of his coaches:

http://trisutto.com/...reat-cadence-debate/

Many if not most here on Slowtwitch think Sutto has no idea what he's talking about, so take these with a grain of salt, but it does explain why Chrissie was pushing big gears. I happen to believe he knows what he's talking about on this topic.

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Coach at TriForce Triathlon Team: https://www.triforceteam.com

Very interesting. Thanks for the links.

I raced yesterday with 175's cranks and stayed at low RPM. Could never get in the aerobars since it was SO windy.
Felt like I had more power, even though my bike time still sucked. Did not seem to impact my run, but have not seen run
splits yet though.

Thanks again for the links!! I know with lower RPM for the same power my HR is lower.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Interesting splits up for the race I did yesterday

http://totalbodyfitness.com/...te-triathlon-sprint/

Had a crappy bike as expected, but boy, for the 3 mile run, 6:15 pace, I will take that for an old guy. :)
First 175 low RPM bike, good run. Will see what happens at the UC Davis race but with a disneyland trip in between, :(

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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That's the best time to be in the aerobars...

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"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

Is it possible / likely that you were able to produce slightly higher power because you were not in aero, and not being in aero caused more resistance...leading to a slower bike time?? Would a windy day not be the best time to be in aero??

Did you actually put out more power, as measured with a power meter, or are you somehow able to eyeball your power output?