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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Each time I changed the cranks, I changed the seat. So this morning changed from 175 to 170, and raised the seat 5. Did a quick check and
shoe heal on pedal top with leg fully extended.

Dave,

As was mentioned earlier in this or another of your threads, using the heal on the pedal with the leg straight is just sort of a preliminary order of magnitude adjustment for seat height. Since you like me have large feet and you also seem to pedal toe down, those two combined are likely leading you to a low saddle height compared to optimal.

YMMV,

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Dave'

Your data table show the trials as done unlocked. Does this mean you're testing these in the PowerCrank mode rather than the mode you actually race in?

200mm PC unlocked
200mm PC unlocked
175mm PC unlocked
200mm PC unlocked
175mm PC unlocked
170mm PC unlocked


Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
Last edited by: sciguy: Sep 26, 17 12:29
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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oh god.... good catch.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
Well, HR varies by as much as 30% under the supposedly identical conditions, so the variance is a lot larger than the signal. So even though there does appear to be a trend, I am not sure you can say that it actually means anything.

I wonder how good the Velotron is at keeping power the same at 85 rpm vs. 40 rpm?

Better than just about anything else out there, which is why most get sold to university, etc who must have accuracy. I sure would not use the cheap trainers for testing.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
But who knows what rpm's he's holding during the warmup and cooldown, or if he is ramping power up and down at exactly the same rate? The distance measurement could differ because of that, but it is a useless metric in erg mode anyway, except perhaps as a check on how well he followed his protocol if he does warmup and cooldown exactly the same way every time.

On my warmup, I am not worrying about RPM's at all, or 5 minute cool down.

No person could ever hold 100% the same RPM's over time, IMO.

The distance changes for the same setups since yep, my RPM's are never exactly the same.
I track this because I input this into strava for my training day.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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jeffp wrote:
7% is a rather large variance with constant power

7% of what?

I have just started to collect data. I have no where close enough data points to say there is a trend. But, I am at least starting to collect data and trying my best
to minimize the variables, and keep the test conditions as close to the same as possible. BUT, things like I am more tired on day vs another will impact the data.
But rather than just going be feel this time with crank length, as 99% of folks do, I am attempting to see if I can get numbers behind what I end up trying for next race season.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
h2ofun wrote:

Each time I changed the cranks, I changed the seat. So this morning changed from 175 to 170, and raised the seat 5. Did a quick check and
shoe heal on pedal top with leg fully extended.


Dave,

As was mentioned earlier in this or another of your threads, using the heal on the pedal with the leg straight is just sort of a preliminary order of magnitude adjustment for seat height. Since you like me have large feet and you also seem to pedal toe down, those two combined are likely leading you to a low saddle height compared to optimal.

YMMV,

Hugh

True, but I am not doing bike fit yet!!! That will come later. Most get fitted and NEVER deal with crank length, which totally changes the fit.
So, working with Frank, we are trying to get some numbers to at least when we start working more on fit, we have some data driven basis for
why I am using a certain crank length.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
Dave'

Your data table show the trials as done unlocked. Does this mean you're testing these in the PowerCrank mode rather than the mode you actually race in?

200mm PC unlocked
200mm PC unlocked
175mm PC unlocked
200mm PC unlocked
175mm PC unlocked
170mm PC unlocked


Hugh

Yep

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
oh god.... good catch.

Good catch of what? I can ride my PC's just like regular pedals. Who knows, maybe I will race with PC's next year just to drive some ST folks nuts. :)
Have you ever tried? If not, how can you make a judgement?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
RowToTri wrote:
oh god.... good catch.

Good catch of what? I can ride my PC's just like regular pedals. Who knows, maybe I will race with PC's next year just to drive some ST folks nuts. :)
Have you ever tried? If not, how can you make a judgement?

Dave,

Whether or not someone has tried them isn't the point. You don't race with them in the unlocked mode and have commented that you're afraid to ride outside with them unlocked so I'm betting you will never race with them that way. You should test set up as you race i.e. aero postion, cranks locked, saddle moved back as you raise it with shorter cranks to keep the geometry consistent.......................... You seem to be doing none of these so any results you compile will be rubbish in regards to how things might work during a race.

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
RowToTri wrote:
oh god.... good catch.

Good catch of what? I can ride my PC's just like regular pedals. Who knows, maybe I will race with PC's next year just to drive some ST folks nuts. :)
Have you ever tried? If not, how can you make a judgement?

I have not tried them. But I am virtually certain that the faster you pedal them, the harder it is to keep them aligned.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
RowToTri wrote:
oh god.... good catch.


Good catch of what? I can ride my PC's just like regular pedals. Who knows, maybe I will race with PC's next year just to drive some ST folks nuts. :)
Have you ever tried? If not, how can you make a judgement?


Dave,

Whether or not someone has tried them isn't the point. You don't race with them in the unlocked mode and have commented that you're afraid to ride outside with them unlocked so I'm betting you will never race with them that way. You should test set up as you race i.e. aero postion, cranks locked, saddle moved back as you raise it with shorter cranks to keep the geometry consistent.......................... You seem to be doing none of these so any results you compile will be rubbish in regards to how things might work during a race.

Again, I respect that is your opinion. But at least I am getting data which is more than 99% of the folks have.

My rubbish over the years sure has given me decent race results compared to most.

Again, this is just a hobby. Hobbies are fun. What is the worse that happens with this attempt? My bike is WORSE than last year. But what if it happens to get better?
Next year one of us will eat crow. :)

Where do you get this comment I am afraid to ride the PC's outside? I did it for years? I impressed folks I rode with that I could ride them up steep hills and did not have to get out of the saddle.

So, I am just trying out updates as I what I am doing. Not saying it is right. Or 100% correct. But I am having fun. I am trying something new. Going to take a while but I hope to race next season with a fit, cranks etc that have something behind it rather than just my guesses over the years. If the bike is worse, who cares. But if better, ....

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Are you doing this testing in the aero position that you will race in?
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
RowToTri wrote:
oh god.... good catch.


Good catch of what? I can ride my PC's just like regular pedals. Who knows, maybe I will race with PC's next year just to drive some ST folks nuts. :)
Have you ever tried? If not, how can you make a judgement?


I have not tried them. But I am virtually certain that the faster you pedal them, the harder it is to keep them aligned.

Nope, you are wrong. I was pushing them to 115 rpm with no alignment issues.
Do you ever do one legged cycling drills? If you train the muscles correctly, it is amazing what you can do.

So, just an honest question, how can you be virtually certain about something you have never tried?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
RowToTri wrote:
More power with shorter cranks at LOWER rpm is a pretty weird result. Unless your old position was completely sapping your ability to apply pressure to the pedals - like in a really major way. But even so I would think that if that were the case it would equally hamper your ability to spin the cranks... so this result might say more about the test method than what your best fit is.


In these tests, not working on fit.

Yep, everyone thinks one has to spin high RPM, etc. including me. I have an open mind to let the data guide me and will see what is recommended.

Now, I believe, as one example, Chrisse spun low RPM's and folks gave her a bad time. She did okay. :)


i'm not saying anything at all about high or low rpm in and of itself. I'm talking about making more power with shorter cranks at a lower rpm than you were on the longer cranks, at the same perceived effort level.

To do that you will have to be putting a good deal more force on the pedals.

Over my head. I am just collecting data and will let an expert like Frank Day guide me along. I still question how this fits into running of the bike, and going up hills. But, no going back now.

As I said, some might find my journey interesting. Just having 3 top athletes coming to my house tomorrow to test themselves on different crank lengths with power says some are open minded to see if crank length, fit and numbers might have them consider making the investment to different size cranks. Will post what I see happen.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [rmt] [ In reply to ]
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rmt wrote:
Are you doing this testing in the aero position that you will race in?

A little but not much. The focus is trying to do the same testing. We are not worrying about bike fit at the moment,

AND again, some of you have the flexibility, mental strength, to stay in the aero bars for training. I found, since I bike 90 minutes a day, 7 days a week, my back could not handle this. During a race I can a lot more, but just not in training.

So yes, it is easy to pick apart that maybe what I am doing is not 100% perfect, but it sure is a lot more effort and data than I have ever read on ST on this topic.
But, at the end, who knows. But unless one attempts the journey, even if not perfect, one might never find something new.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Over my head. I am just collecting data and will let an expert like Frank Day guide me along.




and you consider Frank an "expert" based on? You do realize that 1/2 of a class graduating from medical school were in the bottom half of their class;)

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
Last edited by: sciguy: Sep 27, 17 8:48
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:

True, but I am not doing bike fit yet!!! That will come later. Most get fitted and NEVER deal with crank length, which totally changes the fit.
So, working with Frank, we are trying to get some numbers to at least when we start working more on fit, we have some data driven basis for
why I am using a certain crank length.

Crank length is part of bike fit. If you're trying to determine what length you feel you need before you get fit, you're forcing the fit to work around that, instead of finding the total optimal position. And until you're in a given position with a given crank length, you won't know whether that is the right length for that position...

"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
RowToTri wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
RowToTri wrote:
More power with shorter cranks at LOWER rpm is a pretty weird result. Unless your old position was completely sapping your ability to apply pressure to the pedals - like in a really major way. But even so I would think that if that were the case it would equally hamper your ability to spin the cranks... so this result might say more about the test method than what your best fit is.


In these tests, not working on fit.

Yep, everyone thinks one has to spin high RPM, etc. including me. I have an open mind to let the data guide me and will see what is recommended.

Now, I believe, as one example, Chrisse spun low RPM's and folks gave her a bad time. She did okay. :)


i'm not saying anything at all about high or low rpm in and of itself. I'm talking about making more power with shorter cranks at a lower rpm than you were on the longer cranks, at the same perceived effort level.

To do that you will have to be putting a good deal more force on the pedals.


Over my head. I am just collecting data and will let an expert like Frank Day guide me along. I still question how this fits into running of the bike, and going up hills. But, no going back now.

As I said, some might find my journey interesting. Just having 3 top athletes coming to my house tomorrow to test themselves on different crank lengths with power says some are open minded to see if crank length, fit and numbers might have them consider making the investment to different size cranks. Will post what I see happen.

1) If this is over your head, that means you do not know what power is. That would make it pretty difficult for you to devise a meaningful test or to interpret the results. So I suggest you read up on the technical definition of power and think about that it means relative to cycling - i.e. crank length, cadence, pedal force, speed, gearing, etc.

2) When people try to give you thoughtful advice and you just brush it aside by implying that they are taking things way too seriously and you're just having fun, and you are just going to do what you are going to do, then why ASK people for help in the first place? If you want to document your process without pesky interruptions by the Slowtwitch Hoi Polloi, then just post updates on what you are doing and tell people to keep their opinions to themselves. People will read it anyway. I promise.

3) I could tell you why I am virtually sure that doing these tests with unlocked power cranks invalidates your results, but I won't because you will not believe me.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
I could tell you why I am virtually sure that doing these tests with unlocked power cranks invalidates your results, but I won't because you will not believe me.

What qualifications could you POSSIBLY have that would equip you to contribute to any conversation about reciprocating or cyclic mechanical systems?! :P

Eliot
blog thing - strava thing
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
rmt wrote:
Are you doing this testing in the aero position that you will race in?


A little but not much. The focus is trying to do the same testing. We are not worrying about bike fit at the moment,

AND again, some of you have the flexibility, mental strength, to stay in the aero bars for training. I found, since I bike 90 minutes a day, 7 days a week, my back could not handle this. During a race I can a lot more, but just not in training.

So yes, it is easy to pick apart that maybe what I am doing is not 100% perfect, but it sure is a lot more effort and data than I have ever read on ST on this topic.
But, at the end, who knows. But unless one attempts the journey, even if not perfect, one might never find something new.

I think you need to ask yourself why you are doing this 'testing'. If it is to have fun, and maybe learn a few things along the way, then that is absolutely cool, no problem.

If, however, the aim of your testing is to try and get faster whilst racing then I would suggest that what you are currently doing is completely wasting your time.
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:

2) When people try to give you thoughtful advice and you just brush it aside by implying that they are taking things way too seriously and you're just having fun, and you are just going to do what you are going to do, then why ASK people for help in the first place? If you want to document your process without pesky interruptions by the Slowtwitch Hoi Polloi, then just post updates on what you are doing and tell people to keep their opinions to themselves. People will read it anyway. I promise.


I saw a definition this morning - it went something like this:

Askhole: noun; a person who constantly asks for advice and then does the opposite of what you tell them.

ETA - and before you get defensive Dave, that wasn't strictly aimed at you, I just saw that definition this morning and RowToTri's comments reminded me about it.
Last edited by: rmt: Sep 26, 17 16:28
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
RowToTri wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
RowToTri wrote:
More power with shorter cranks at LOWER rpm is a pretty weird result. Unless your old position was completely sapping your ability to apply pressure to the pedals - like in a really major way. But even so I would think that if that were the case it would equally hamper your ability to spin the cranks... so this result might say more about the test method than what your best fit is.


In these tests, not working on fit.

Yep, everyone thinks one has to spin high RPM, etc. including me. I have an open mind to let the data guide me and will see what is recommended.

Now, I believe, as one example, Chrisse spun low RPM's and folks gave her a bad time. She did okay. :)


i'm not saying anything at all about high or low rpm in and of itself. I'm talking about making more power with shorter cranks at a lower rpm than you were on the longer cranks, at the same perceived effort level.

To do that you will have to be putting a good deal more force on the pedals.


Over my head. I am just collecting data and will let an expert like Frank Day guide me along. I still question how this fits into running of the bike, and going up hills. But, no going back now.

As I said, some might find my journey interesting. Just having 3 top athletes coming to my house tomorrow to test themselves on different crank lengths with power says some are open minded to see if crank length, fit and numbers might have them consider making the investment to different size cranks. Will post what I see happen.


1) If this is over your head, that means you do not know what power is. That would make it pretty difficult for you to devise a meaningful test or to interpret the results. So I suggest you read up on the technical definition of power and think about that it means relative to cycling - i.e. crank length, cadence, pedal force, speed, gearing, etc.

2) When people try to give you thoughtful advice and you just brush it aside by implying that they are taking things way too seriously and you're just having fun, and you are just going to do what you are going to do, then why ASK people for help in the first place? If you want to document your process without pesky interruptions by the Slowtwitch Hoi Polloi, then just post updates on what you are doing and tell people to keep their opinions to themselves. People will read it anyway. I promise.

3) I could tell you why I am virtually sure that doing these tests with unlocked power cranks invalidates your results, but I won't because you will not believe me.

We can agree to disagree since going in the mud is not something I try to do.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [Warbird] [ In reply to ]
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Warbird wrote:
h2ofun wrote:


True, but I am not doing bike fit yet!!! That will come later. Most get fitted and NEVER deal with crank length, which totally changes the fit.
So, working with Frank, we are trying to get some numbers to at least when we start working more on fit, we have some data driven basis for
why I am using a certain crank length.


Crank length is part of bike fit. If you're trying to determine what length you feel you need before you get fit, you're forcing the fit to work around that, instead of finding the total optimal position. And until you're in a given position with a given crank length, you won't know whether that is the right length for that position...

I understand that is one way to attack fit. But it is not the only way to attack fit.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
h2ofun wrote:

Over my head. I am just collecting data and will let an expert like Frank Day guide me along. /quote]




and you consider Frank an "expert" based on? You do realize that 1/2 of a class graduating from medical school were in the bottom half of their class;)

Do you always attack others? 1/2 of a class from medical school is probably smarter than 95% of the population.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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