"You are all snowflakes."

"I can't believe Dan allows all these personal attacks to go on."

Just LOL. These threads are half the reason I hang around Slowtwitch. The lack of self awareness combined with self confidence is the most entertaining thing I read most days.

Because just calling out the snowflakes. Just amazes me they nothing better in life to do than attack others.

I posted comments from Frank Day on how the test is being used. Does that not answer any of your questions on effectiveness?

5 of 10 means when I am in the 10 minute per rpm level, I situp for the first 5 minutes, and then go into the aerobars for the last 5 minutes. I then hit the next rpm ramp,
situp for 5 minutes, then get in the bars for the last 5 minutes.

As shown in the spreadsheet, I did like the first month collecting data sitting up. It is interesting to watch, when I go into the bars, my HR I can watch go up at 5 beats.

Not doing power testing now.

Fatigue efforts. I am using various things. One, the more data I collect, the more we can see trends. I also am recording when I am sick. Recording morning HR before I get out of bed. I also am recording what my long run times are, which clearly are slower after I race. So when you see my long run times are like 1:35, I am tried from racing or being sick. If I am running 1:27, I am recovered. Still recovering from my stroller turkey trot race last week, but I ran 1:29:24, with a morning HR of 54, since I am just about recovered.

Why 10 minutes per RPM step, this is the protocol Frank has given me. Will have to let him answer.

Since I had a bike fit, I am getting much closer to a better seat height. It is leg angle, etc. But, I have hit the limit of the bike seat with the shorter cranks on the Velotron, so now it is just the maximum. It should be a little higher for 150, but. Am working with Racermate to try and get some custom long bike seat posts made for me. So yes, as you can see with my recorded numbers, I have tried to change when I can. Right now at 175 cranks, around 840 is my target. So at 150, I should be at 865, but can only get to 850.

I will send a note to Frank to see if he can continue to put responses together for your great questions.

I am NOT trying to fight with anyone of what they think is right or wrong. Just trying to pass along what we are doing. I am clearly open to any logical suggestions for improvements But am sick and tired of the attacks, when they are not trying to do any type of testing with numbers.

The biggest take away I am seeing, for me, is how RPM target is impacting my HR, riding comfort, being able to push power, etc. No where have I seen anyone deal with this aspect of bike fit and riding performance.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Hint...because you ignore what other people have done for testing, doesnÂ’t mean it didnÂ’t happen. You arenÂ’t the only person in the world doing this type of testing. Saying the same incorrect thing over and over doesnÂ’t make it right.

Back to constructive questions. What is HR and RPM? Are they averages, single readings, etc?? What is the standard deviation of your HR values, ie. what is the minimum change that is meaningful? Your HR going up by a beat or two is not a ‘trend’ especially when your HR varies by so much every ride.

You are welcome

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

There are 19 pages of drivel. Now is exactly the time to continue to point out that people are talking to someone who is sectionable

the passive aggressiveness is killing me, dude...

I had a bit of time so I ran a little bit analysis on the numbers you have, but since the data quality is suspect, I don't know what to conclude.

Your test loop I'm ignoring. there's insufficient data there to say anything at this point.

You had the lowest HR at 200w with 175mm cranks locked. Next lowest was with 175mm unlocked.

Your HR at 200w was flat from 50-70 rpm. across all runs it went up by an average of 1.76 bpm from 70-80 (s.d of the differences +/- 1.75bpm) and again by 2.79 bpm from 80-90 rpm (s.d. of differences +/- 1.79bpm)

The step from 70-80 rpm looks like it comes an hour into the ride. Unknown, is the HR increase due to getting tired - cardiac drift - or is it a function of rpm. Need a baseline to evaluate that against.

with locked cranks - HR was flat to 70rpm, then went up by 1.1bpm to 80 and 3.1 to 90. s.d. of differences = 2.1 and 2.23, respectively.

Edit:

Oh, the SD of HR values themselves for any given RPM is between 4.3 and 4.7.

The data looks to be pretty noisy, which means that IMO you are going to really have to tighten up your protocol.

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Anytime someone uses the word snowflake...

Much better than the bully word, but at times I love to use them both.

Just so so many folks on social media that just have to, well, ...

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

The noise will never go away as long as he continues to use HR as a proxy for VO2 consumption. Using HR to measure efficiency will never be accurate or "100%" repeatable.

Here is a response from Frank Day


1. There actually is enough data from his test loop to say something. Your problem is you donÂ’t have access to all the previous data. As I stated earlier I compared 8 tests he did on the same course a year ago to the 4 tests he just did. A year ago he averaged 187 watts at an average HR of 129 for the course. His last 4 results averaged 214 watts at an average HR of 126. I think anyone would take that change and there are enough tests this is probably not a one off but probably represents real improvement.

2. Cranks locked and unlocked is a red herring. Dave pedals the bicycle no differently in either configuration. But, he notes the difference so those of you not familiar with the cranks are confused by this.

3. Indeed Dave’s lowest HR occurred on 170 cranks. He has 1 or 2 tests that one might consider outliers. The best of these had a pulse power of 1.626. The vast majority of his “best” pulse power results are 1.56 or less. Even if you include the “outliers" we have enough data that they do not affect the analysis. He has 1.56 results on cranks ranging from 150 to 175. But, you miss the whole point of the effort, I am not focused on crank length but rather on pedal speed because that is what the science says can be best manipulated to affect efficiency and I am going for maximum efficiency. Crank length only comes into play because pedal speed is determined by the combination of crank length and cadence. This most efficient pedaling has been seen in Dave over a fairly wide range from 70 to 128 cm/sec and all of those outliers occurred in the range of 103 to 123. It is why I settled on his most efficient pedal speed being 110 cm/sec. This is his data when upright. We are now trying to figure out how going aero affects his results and here I expect crank length to have an independent affect. I would be surprised if he is as efficient on 175 cranks as 150 when aero even though it makes no difference when upright, or so it seems.

4. While you analyze HR vs RPM I am pretty much ignoring that because, as I said, I am focusing on pedal speed. Once I figure out best pedal speed I will then try to see if there is a best RPM. My initial stab was 110 cm/sec was his best pedal speed at his race power so he should be on 150 cranks at an RPM of 70, on average. He has had one race at this effort that he felt went well. Further, he has done that course testing on the VT. Of his 3 efforts all were on 150 cranks compared to last years all on 175 cranks. The cadences werenÂ’t all that different between these tests, averaging 72.5 on the 150Â’s and 77.3 on the 175Â’s but the pedal speed change was pretty dramatic 114 to 141. Remember we saw a 13% power increase despite a lower HR (is that because he is older or was that a lesser effort? Does it matter?)

5. The protocol is designed to reduce the risk of being fooled by cardiac drift. The power chosen is close to his race effort but something he can ride comfortably for an hour without getting too tired. Plus, we have reversed the cadence progression on different days. Because, HR lags somewhat changes in effort I wanted each cadence to be long enough for his HR to stabilize but not so long that we could get in lots of tests in without fatigue interfering. If we did one test a day we would never finish this effort. Nothing is perfect. One makes choices then tries to get the most out of the choices they make.

6. Because there is a standard deviation in all data in all testing that is why lots of data is required to draw valid conclusions. My guess is we have enough here that a statistician could take this data and get a best fit curve for the data that is reasonably reliable. I donÂ’t have the knowledge or skill to do that but I know what passes the eyeball test and to my eye this is good data. A statistician is welcome to analyze and comment. I would be interested in hearing their comments.

7. And, exactly, how would you tighten up the protocol? Remember, this is one person testing himself in his basement. Luckily, he does have a research caliber ergometer available to him. I am not doing university research here but trying to help an individual find what is best for him. How would you do it differently?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Here is a response from Frank Day


How would you propose someome try to measure efficiency in their basement? HR is the best proxy I know of. I realize it is not 100% repeatable which explains the data spread. But, with enough trials the variances tend to average out so reasonable conclusions can be drawn. That is what I have tried to do, get enough data that the conclusions we draw are reasonably valid. How would you do it differently.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dave,

Any chance we can see the data? Also I've asked before you you've yet to answer, what are you using for cooling during these tests i.e. no fan, a single fan, two fans, what type and how close, when are they turned on? Variable cooling alone can easily account for way more than the variability you're seeing.

This is the only loop data I've seen so far. Were the 175 cranks locked or unlocked? That's not specified in your table. I would strongly disagree with FD on locked or unlocked as being unimportant as you yourself have mentioned not being able to ride the 200mm cranks aero when they are unlocked.


Inquiring minds want to know.

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

 


Others have asked but didn't get an answer, what is his FTP ? On one hand it's hard to believe it's 220ish if his HR is at 121.
It will be interesting to know how much below threshold these tests are since he may have a rude awakening when he goes low RPM higher power in a race.

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I wouldn't. I would trust the research that had been done(see below) and not worry about it. If you're concerned about your efficiency for a couple hundred dollars you could go to a lab and measure it from 50 to 110rpm.


If you're using HR to measure efficiency the error bars on your data will be much larger and will it difficult to draw any conclusions. Have you learned something that wasn't previously known?



Different Effect of Cadence on Cycling Efficiency between Young and Older Cyclists, Massimo Sacchetti et al.

So, I am posting the data I have. On my strava account is years and years of data riding my velotrons 7 days a week. Take a look there if you want to see it and beat it up. Martis is there on Sundays. I have included my latest updated spread sheet. I do not understand your questions on cranks. Everytime there is an entry for what length I have used. I make it easier to read, unless it says pc with the length, meaning they are unlocked, they are standard cranks, whether they are locked PC's or my adjustable cranks, etc, but they are fixed. So, what am I missing?

Looks like my entries into Strava started around the end of 2011. I have a manual training log, but can only find through 2008. You can find it at my website at
http://www.h2ofun.net/...pbellTrainingLog.xls

I also, 100% of the time use a single large cooling fan that is maybe 3 feet in front of me for 100% of the rides, always.

And yes, by this testing, I have found that the 200's were too long, and my seat was too low, that I could not get the cranks over the top for any length of time in the aero bars.
With the 175 or shorter cranks, with the correct seat height, and seat pushed back, I have no issues in powercrank mode in aero now. I just have NO desire to sit in that position for a long time. Maybe not the perfect training, but since I see very few able to do 7 days a week on the trainer, 90 minutes a day, for years at a time, I do what I have to so I get just do it. Also makes it super tough to watch my movies trying to keep my head up. Again, I know may not be perfect, but better than nothing.

Here is a response from Frank Day.


Sciguy, I would strongly disagree with your locked vs unlocked concern. The main benefit of PowerCranks is they give feedback if one is having trouble pedaling the entire circle. If one is not having trouble then they work exactly like regular cranks. DaveÂ’s mentioning that he couldnÂ’t ride 200Â’s in the aero position unlocked is simply letting him know that 200Â’s were too long for him to ride efficiently in the aero postion because he couldnÂ’t get them over the top easily. He had no trouble riding 200Â’s upright. That would be a valid concern if any of this testing had been done on 200Â’s in the aero position. It has not been. Pretty much all of DaveÂ’s Velotron training efforts is done more upright because he has back issues if aero for too long. He has traditionally saved his aero efforts for races to minimize this issue for him. Therefore, all of the testing we have done has been on crank lengths and positions that provide no issue for him whether the cranks are locked or unlocked. It is just recently that I have started the process to see if we can find a crank length for him that will allow him to ride aero without losing too much efficiency and minimizing his back issues.

I will try to go through all of the data Dave gave me regarding these runs for your information. Be aware, there is a lot.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I would guess FTP around 220 but I really could care less



From Frank Day


I donÂ’t know nor do I care what DaveÂ’s FTP is. The purpose of this exercise is to improve his efficiency. If we improve his efficiency his FTP will increase whether we know the number or not, it is as simple as that. We are testing at close to his race efforts which is probably close to this FTP since most of his race efforts last about an hour. My guess is right now his FTP is around 230 or so.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

OK, good luck with your experiment then.

Wait a sec. I thought you and Frank were doing all of the analysis on tons and tons of data. How are you doing that analysis if you haven't compiled it into a format that can be analyzed? If this is for you, that's your job, not ours...

I get that you don't owe anybody anything, but you volunteered your experience, and in doing so, this is what is frustrating. Since I asked you what the protocol was, and you pointed to the first post on the thread as being the best summary of the testing protocol, the story has changed a number of times. And now there is lots of data, but we can't see it...

If you are hoping for anyone else to learn from your experience (and I hope that is your intent, otherwise what is the point) then do whomever wants to learn here a favour and say "this is what we are testing for, these are the variables we are controlling, these are the variables that we have assumed are insignificant, this is the metric we are using to determine whether it is more or less efficient.

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Since some have asked about my testing process, I thought I would try to load the picture of my erg file and see if this helps.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

No, that doesn't help.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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What do you mean? "No communication detected" is a perfect representation of this thread.

C'mon, I'm trying to show my kinder, gentler side with our resident snowflake....

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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lol, Apex Trainwreck has been achieved.

Dave's an engineer.

Boss - "Dave, tell us how you determined the specs for that bridge you designed"

Dave - points at calculator.....

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly