X2 - Well said.

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

HIS testing is irrelevant though.

My post above is a scientific fact. It doesn't matter if crank length is 100mm or 200mm, the highest cadence one can hold on the same gearing is going to be the fastest.

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I believe my rpm dropped back as I found the best optimisation of length v power regarding a pedal rotation in the aero position. I had issues with my hip flexors even at 165 in an ironman and at 160 I think I have less dead spots so can engage for more degrees of rotation through the pedal stroke. With longer cranks I think I was spinning a higher rpm to carry through the dead spots of rotation.

My thoughts explained here.

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/the-benefits-of-reducing-your-crank-length/


http://courtneyogden.com/winning-an-ironman-on-145mm-cranks/

I do not have the ability to do that. Body is just too old.

So, what do you think the end result will be?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yep, senior moment

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Which part do you not have the ability to do because your body is too old? And when you race, how much of the race would you remain in aero, assuming it is a flat race with no corners.

No I'm not suggesting 200mm cranks. I'm suggesting shorter is better and its no surprise to anyone (who understands gear ratios) that your higher cadence on the shorter cranks yielded a faster speed even if your test was flawed being in erg mode. Flawed test or not, higher cadence is going to be faster in the same gearing every single time. It just so happens that a higher cadence is easier to produce on shorter cranks.

Like others have said, you need to ride the 175mm cranks in aero position and see how that feels. Get out of erg mode. Ride in slope mode.

You still need to move that seat back 25mm. Yes you will ride more slack but if you don't move it back, you're not riding the same position you had before with 200 mm cranks. I explained the whole knee over spindle thing in the prior thread. What are you not understanding? By not moving the seat back you are now activating different muscle groups than you were before. You will be using more quads than glutes which is going to affect your run. And I wouldn't be surprised if you started having knee issues if you don't move the seat back.

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There is enough research out there to show that crank length doesn't matter from a power production perspective.
Good bike fit tools generate data around minimum joint angles and lateral motion that allow the selection of the best crank length - it's fairly easy to see the impact of changing cranks when you have data.
As rmt said - your goal needs to be a position that you can stay in, so worrying about power production is pretty low on your list.

It sounds like you need to find a position that is a good balance between aero and comfort. You are wasting/using a lot of watts each time you sit up.

Think of it this way, which would be faster: holding 300 watts sitting up or holding 300 watts in an aero position?

so like others have said; play around with the relatively shorter cranks.
Of course they'll feel weird/uncomfortable since you've spent years using longer cranks.
But also play/adjust your front end some.
Find that balance point that's more aero than sitting up, but comfortable enough to stay in the position.

And like one of the many sayings my college coach used to say: "you're doing this to be comfortable being uncomfortable..."

Ok didn't realise you were not doing this in the aero position. The more aero you get the more your range of motion is impinged and becomes a trade off of what length is best for you and why shorter cranks are a greater advantage. As I say I ride 160 on my tri bike but found 170 down from 175 feels better on my road bike as I sit higher and hip angle is less closed off

Thanks, both are outstanding articles. Loved the stuff on powercranks. Also the stuff on the HR testing and crank length, which is exactly what Frank is having me do.

No question on the 200 cranks my knee is really bent. It might be one reason I have to situp so often in a race riding my bike and stretch my leg out. I think I was doing that less this morning at 175.

Thank you very much for constructive inputs. I continue to explore options. Seems at the moment, going to 175's, with correct seat height, and trying to figure correct saddle location, (still waiting for inputs I can understand the why), I have nothing to lose, but logically, seems I have things to gain with correct fit. If not, what the heck,
the ride will be fun trying. I sure am learning a lot of things, even though making plenty of mistake in the journey.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

So my question would be "Do you have a road bike?" If the answer is yes and you feel pretty comfortable on that, then what is your self selected cadence?

I find that if my position is going to compromise my power output, the best indicator is whether the cadence for the same effort is noticeably lower. I have a kinda high cadence of 95+ on the road bike. I have found that of my TT fit is too restrictive, the first indicator is a drop in cadence, so if a 20 minute effort on the TT bike is only high 80-90 rpm, then I have gone too far outside my natural range. So I would suggest recording your average cadence and see how that changes with crank length.

There isn't much/any evidence that shorter cranks, to a point, change your power output, so you are probably looking for what is most comfortable for a given power output. Anyone can gut out a 5 minute power over a range of position, so I try to stick to the 15-20 tests. If the position is a compromise, you are going to really struggle to hold anywhere near your FTP.

If you shorten your cranks 25mm, and raise your saddle 25mm, you've done more to your position than just change your crank length. Yes, your saddle moved back slightly when you raised it, but only a few mm. Likewise, with the crank at 3 o'clock, your knee moved back that same few mm. But your foot moved back 25mm, so now your knee angle at 3 o'clock is tighter, potentially costing you. Moving the saddle forward instead of back would close that angle even more...

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"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

At 192 cm I am pretty settled at 180mm for the road bike and 175 for Tri.
Anything less than that and it just screws with my pedaling motion.
ALL of us tallies have been running relatively short cranks due to the unavailability of normal length cranks for us.

At 175 my aero limits are vision and keeping fluids down, you just cannot drink when really low.
But I also used to run very far forward position too.

For UCI TT, I simply cannot get anything approaching a good position due to length restrictions and seat restrictions.
So maybe I could try shorter cranks for that as time trials are usually very short anyways.

What many people forget is that we tallies also tend to have longer feet so that the back of our shoe is behind the BB axis.

I would imagine that if you are similar leg length ratios to me that you would work well on 180 cranks for a far forward tri position.

Dave,

I'm really confused. Over the years:

1. You have often alluded to being an engineer although not what variety.

2. It appears you've been training with a Velotron since 2005 so 12 years and a Computrainer several years before that.

3. You've actively promoted both the Computrainer and Velotron all these years as great training tools and I would agree they are.

4. You don't seem to understand that when using erg mode with either one of these that cadence, speed and distance are independent of the power you're generating despite this being one of the most important sales features of erg mode. One doesn't need to be an expert to know this it's a major sales feature. Many if not most of us purchased a Computrainer specifically for this feature. So please don't hide behind "not being an expert" Just being conscious and reading the manual one time during those years should have been sufficient.

Back to testing:

As someone else mentioned:

1. Run the unit in slope mode rather than erg mode.

2. Get nicely warmed up.

3. Riding in the aero position you race in try to ride as hard as you can for at least 20 minutes at an even sustained power. If you go out too hard you'll see a drop off before the end. If you go out too easy you'll be able to crank it up excessively near the end. In either case use the average power of the ride to inform future testing. It may take a few tries to arrive at a decent approximation of your sustainable power.

4. Record the average power of the ride as well as average heart rate.

Do the above for 200mm cranks set up as you're currently racing and then set up for 175mms on other days. You'll need to adjust the drop to the bars to be equal between the 200mm trials and 175mm trials so raise the pads 25mm as you raise the seat 25mm for the 175mm trial. I'd also slide the seat and pads back ~ 25mm for the 175mm trials. Try to be very similarly rested before these efforts.

Shift into whatever gear you seem to be most comfortable riding the high power. If you need to shift during the test do so.

What sort of fans do you have set up for cooling? If you're not using high velocity fan/s there's a problem right there.

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

I really do not have a road bike, and have really never ridden one.

Thanks for the ideas

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

For a shorter race, I can stay in the aero quite a bit. For the trainer, just do not have the mental.

I also found when I was trying to do a lot of aero with my 7 days a week trainer, it was starting to mess up my back.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

This is what I am starting to believe and seems just need to give it a shot.

Thanks

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I guess what I am trying to do now is figure out how to get the correct seat position, assuming what I had to start with was not right.

So if you are starting from scratch, what would you use to position the seat for a new person? I have read 5mm nose of seat in front of BB. I have read get the knee over the spindle. ETc.

Thanks

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yep, it was interesting to see the watts produced change has I changed position. So clearly I have seen now that aero produces the most watts.

Only issue I have for the front end is unless I buy different parts like a different angled stem, etc., my front is up as high as it will go since the front tube is cut.

Thanks, things all go back to bike fit. :(

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Thanks, make sense.

There are a lot of things us older folks do that are not "right". We do not have the flexibility we had when younger. We have more injuries to deal with. Etc. Trust me, it is no fun getting older.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Thanks, hits the nail on the head. So few folks are tall, so few fitters deal with tall folks, etc. that yep, they have no real experience with folks like us. So they use the same ideas that work great on short folks on tall folks and this does not always work.

Just like a coach giving the same workout to a 20 year old and a 70 year old. Does not work.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

A good teacher does not belittle a student, but,....

On my trainer I can raise and move the front end around. Not so easy on my bikes.

Guess what I am not perfect, never said I was, or never will say I am. Just doing my best in life.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

So what's up with the regular ...pretty much daily belittling of those who run slower than you;)

Didn't you recently start the " So for most, is run training to get faster not worth the pain?" thread?
Pretty ironic that you would bring up the act of belittling after starting that one;)


If you can change it on the Velotron you're good to go with some excellent testing!!!!! Changing up your bikes can come later. There's not hurry there.

Now how about your fan situation?

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

I thought you were riding in erg mode? How do you know you produce the most watts in aero position if you ride in erg mode?

It would be very strange if you are more efficient in aero position with your current bike fit.