Yes Dave, that's been his handle for a few years.

Dave

May I ask about the information provided on the powercranks link at the bottom of your posts?

I looked at the website, and honestly, I did not see anything there that offered what I would call proof of their efficacy. The studies linked seemed too small, and IMO, poorly designed to offer much in the way of conclusive evidence of training benefit that could be scientifically solely attributed to the use of Powercranks . Is there more info somewhere that provides proof? I 'm curious, especially considering how much they cost...

Nothing would ever answer your question. No different than things like bike fit imo. All i can really offer is listen to folks who have used. This is why imo the try them but if you do not like return for full money back. Why do some folks do one leggef bike drills? Logically to me they make sense which is why i have been using for probably a decade. Other than death and taxes not much else can be proven. Compared to what a lot of folks spend on our sport i do not see them as that expensive. If you were ny me you could give them a try. I kmow the last group over had one buy a set after trying. But my testing for crank length has nothing to do that some is being done on powercranks.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I started a different set of testing this morning to collect some more data. I have been riding a course I made up for the IMLT 2013 event which is the Martis/Brockway loop.
It kicks my butt. 14.23 miles long. Most of it is going up hill, with grades up to like 18%. I always have used this for seeing how things are going. I have years of times for this exact same course on the Velotron.

So, clearly the next step to try with my testing of crank lengths is how these changes impact riding this course. I get to compare time, but also record average watts, rpm, and pulse race. I have changed crank lengths over the years, but have not been very good about detailing when I made the changes.

So, decided I would try and give it a shot at 150mm cranks. Going into this I thought I would crash and burn on the steep hills since I have always heard, and thought, one needed the longer cranks for the hills for leverage.

To my shock, I did not crash and burn. In some ways it was a little easier. My time was much better than on the 200 cranks. I did focus on spinning at no greater than 70 rpm, and used my 50/34 11/32 setup. Now clearly on the steep downhills, I ran out of gears quickly. I also did not put out as much power as I have in the past since my focus was on RPM. So, was an interesting data point.

So, tomorrow I am going to give it another try. But this time I am going to change the front to a 53/39 setup and see what happens. It is just so cool to be able to change any part of a bike setup, and test and see what happens. Sure going to be weird if I end up giving it a go next season racing on some real short cranks.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Wrong direction

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Ooops got ya, brain fart reading downhill as uphill. How was your uphill gearing?

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Shorter cranks give me more hill gears but i love lots. This is why trying a 53/39 shall be interesting. This is one cool feature of the velotron. Electronic gearing. I can try any combp out without any cost or hassle

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Curious to know what you mean by lower power output and faster time? If that is overall time and average power, those two can’t both be lower in the same workout. Lower power would be a slower time, not faster time.

Do you record workouts and analyze in training peaks or even Strava?

Well isn't it obvious, with his new better position he's so much more aerodynamic that the very excellent Velotron takes that into consideration and has him riding faster;)

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Interesting, went back and looked a my times with my Martis/Brockway course I have ridden for years, and even though my notes were poor, looks like my best times were on 175 cranks, not longer stuff.

So this morning rode the same course, but changed my front gearing from 50/34 to 53/39. Tried to keep the same 70 rpm average. But I did try to focus on pushing harder. My seat is probably 15mm too low since I am at the limit of the current velotron seat post. Wow, was pretty amazed. I got my time around the fastest it has even been, which has been a long long time. With the larger rings I did not run out of gearing as quickly. Is a weird feeling with the shorter cranks. I do not feel I have to push so much harder to get the cranks around, compared to 200's and even 175's.

So, fun being able to get real data with single changes and see what happens. I am having a real tough time finding anything negative with the shorter cranks yet that I can see in my testing.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Groundbreaking!

Yes, truly groundbreaking.

I would expect a "My testing to try and get more aero on my Velotron" thread to be next

I suspect it will involved a fan, a velotron and powercranks

Maybe we shouldn't be so hard on WaterBoy. He's just found out that 1) science works and 2) he's not special.
I can imagine that either one of those could be really upsetting to a guy who posts about himself all day everyday. Both at the same time must be truly traumatizing.

Shall be fun seeing how next season goes. Need to do a few more runs on my Martis/Brockway 14.23 course. Interesting being able to do 18.6% grade on 150 cranks. Of course I am standing. Seat is too low at the moment but it is what it is. Note from Frank on the data for the testing on this course. Luckily I had tons of test results I have saved for the last few years.

"
I have done a little analysis of these rides. I have compared the two done recently with 150 cranks and 8 done about a year ago on, I presume, 175 cranks.
Here is what I have found

Your average pedal speed before was about 25% faster (longer cranks and slightly higher cadence) than it is now.
Your average power is 11% higher now even though your average HR for these runs is lower (.94). And, your average pulse power (avg power divided by average HR), an indicator of efficiency, has increased 17%.

I presume we will also be able to improve your aerodynamics now that we have you on shorter cranks. I think this portends to big bike improvements next season. We can do a few more to confirm these results.

Frank Day

"

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

The part I bolded makes me wonder how definitive the 'results' can be, given the year of likely training effect, and that the length of cranks previously used is 'presumed' ....

'Presume' and 'portend' are not terribly ...scientific... Honestly, I hope that your 'hobby' is not costing you anything financial within the realm of this 'experiment' (to be blunt, I hope that you are not paying for this).

He was taking best case since over time I have ridden this course on 175's, 185's and a lot at 200's. My times have been like grouped. One at like 56 minutes. Then went to like 1:02 where I have a note at 185's. Then went to like 1:07 which I think were 200's. But since my records were not 100% clear, he just compared to the best case comparison, which is 175's, rather than worse case which would be 200's.

Bottom line is the last 3 days I have been basically under an hour again, which has not happened for a long long time. Since this course has climbs up to 18.6%, it has been interesting to see how the way shorter cranks do. I felt much better with a 50/34 setup rather than the 53/39 I tried. So at the moment, even with big hill climbing, I no longer can say I need long cranks for leverage since I am trying it first hand.

I think Frank is doing a great job. Compared to most, I sure have a lot more written data of years of stuff that I can reproduce with 100% accuracy. There are limited perceived efforts in my testing. 100% condition controlled. And can be repeated over and over again.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

That last sentence is really funny. Your situation isn’t controlled at all since you constantly switch things and don’t seem to pay attention to any details. Different seats, different cranks, locked vs unlocked different bike fits, etc etc.

There is no way that crank length makes a 10min difference in time for a 1hr ride. Shitty bike fit that massively limits your range of motion might make a difference. Riding with locked powercranks would make a difference.

You are collecting shit data and pretending that you have this holy grail of scientific testing to back up your claims. All you have done is confirm that bike fit is most important and 200mm cranks have always limited you.

Yes but for Dave, even those two steps are a giant step forward.

DDave and team.....

Is interesting I have been able to go back and find 4 years worth of test data on the martis course I have ridden since IMLT 2013. It has the total summary of time, average MPH, watts, and RPM. I did not wear a HR monitor back them. I have results with 175, 185 and 200 cranks. Looking back, which is alway easy right, my times were the best with the 175 cranks. :( I also spun a much higher average RPM.

Never thought this files I saved would be worth anything. But rather than guessing, perceived effort, etc. I have data, and continue to gather, that is and has been 100% repeatable. So at least when I change things, I now have my test course, that really can show how real life results happen with a change that I can do over and over again. Finally getting my monies worth out of my velotrons.

I added a few of the test points to my spreadsheet that were from 2013 when I made and started to ride my martis/brockway test course.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dave,

One thing the Velotron doesn't do and it's one of the most important variable in regards to the speed you attain form a given power is to intelligently compensate for your aerodynamic position which is apparently all over the place from moment to moment. So when you're standing even though you might be going pretty slowly you're projecting a good deal of your great height into the airstream. Heaven forbid you had to ride up hill into a strong headwind. Are you actually riding the not standing parts in an aero position or "all over the place" as you've done in the past?

One other point. Frank seems entirely fixated on heart rate as being incredibly important. One doesn't win races based on having the very lowest average heart rate. With healthy adults the heart does not fatigue during the course of a few hours. You don't need to "save it" . What may well happen if you proceed down this rabbit hole chasing minimum average heart rate is that you completely exhaust scarce glycogen stores in important muscle cells and that sir will slow things down in a very impressive manner.

Have fun and stay safe. Perhaps some day you'll actually do some more useful outdoor real world testing.

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

True but at least my testing is 100% repeatable.

The testing I am doing is trying to stay consistent. The first tests were just sitting up trying to gather data on RPM and HR. This has allowed me to find at the moment my most efficient RPM is around 70.

We then went to putting 50% of the time in aero at different RPM's to gather data. I am going to go back to this tomorrow but shorten the cranks to 145 and see what happens. one can argue all day long that unless I stay 100% in aero it is not right, and that maybe true for an idealist. But for various reasons, in training, I just cannot do this.

No, you do not understand what Frank is doing! We are collecting HR, as we change the setup. Right now the focus has been on crank length since the shorter I can get, with putting out the same power, the better my position will be. So we are a long way to being done to trying to find the best overall bike fit that makes me the most efficient in the aero position and producing the most power. Some say they can do this with just, at best, few hour bike fit. I say no way, as I am seeing as I am testing and collecting data.

At the end of the day, if I am healthy, will see how next season race results go. Who knows, you and all the others might get the last laugh, but maybe not. :)

I guess this is why I have never been a conformist. (I like lemming but... ) One does not make improvements if one is not will to be a contrarian. Love these words.

IMO, it is impossible to do outside real testing. Too many variables. I guess this is why the top folks pay for wind tunnel tests for doing some bike fit stuff. But I guess in your experience, they are wasting their time since it is not being done out doors in real world conditions. :)

And as I continue to ask, why are all these conformist folks, who are doing everything right, not kicking my ass at races. And remember, they are racing an old guy so it should be SO easy to beat me. :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You say this so often that I'm legitimately beginning to wonder if you actually believe this or are simply just wanting to display your ego.

You can take it as negative if you want. My point continues to be that maybe too many as just being conformists. You must have a coach. You must get a bike fit from certain people. You must swim a certain way, or bike or run. Point being so many seem to talk the same talk, but I just ask, were are the results. When I am looking for ideas on how to improve, do I ask a BOP or MOP person, or do I ask the FOP people?

So yes, I believe too many seem to be afraid to try different things, or ask why questions. I have competed enough at the world level I know who the real studs are. And they are not the folks on the podiums at local races generally, which includes me.

Now, in the past, I may have assumed that shorter folks where fitted correctly on 175 cranks, which then always had me asking, why would I use the same crank length as a short person. Well, if the testing I am doing, and if I get race results on short cranks, like 150's, then my question changes. It will be why if my data and test results show a person at 6'5 performs better on lets say 150, why are so many short folks using long 175 cranks? But, I do not have the race results to go there yet, but it is possible. :)

But the more I do this testing, the more I feel that most bike fitters are just there to take folks money, since no way may it be possible to just do the conformist bike fit and have folks race to their potential. But, I could be wrong. Will see.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep