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Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's
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It seems like the only way the Tour can become "wide open" again is if they minimize the value of TT's.

Everyone is so close in terms of watts per kilo that no one can make much more than 5-15 seconds on any mountain top finish. The guys with bigger top line watts who also have good watts per kilo basically seal it up in the ITT/s. The amount of time gained on the TT's make it impossible to gain back on other stages barring some sort of misfortune.

My 2 cents...keep a prologue so that deltas remain small, and maybe a short 10-15K TTT in the third week where you get the time of your 4th man (which would mean a team than can buy a lot of guys who would otherwise be team leaders still may not make a lot of time). Then the mountain top finishes could mean a bit more especially with the time bonuses. Perhaps zero ITT in week 2, or a really short one like 15K.

Even with that, Froome and Sky would still probably win, but it would be a lot closer. There would not be enough of a buffer to play defence for most of the third week!
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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This race you envision: I think it's called the Vuelta a EspaƱa.

Also, historically, one cannot win a grand tour with out being able to TT really, really well.
So, maybe, what are you getting at?

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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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This tells you the dominance of sky when you have a guy like yourself (cycling fan and appreciate the sport) coming up w/ wonky ideas on how to keep the race interesting: take out the individual time trial which has been in the race for ever.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Smaller teams, no race radio, shorter stages....that is what you need to open up the racing.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [Brooks Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Brooks Doughtie wrote:
This tells you the dominance of sky when you have a guy like yourself (cycling fan and appreciate the sport) coming up w/ wonky ideas on how to keep the race interesting: take out the individual time trial which has been in the race for ever.

Agreed, but this formula of largely defending in the mountains (aside from perhaps a single mtn attack) and really padding it in the TT was first was applied by Lemond and then Indurain, then Lance, Pretty well every 5 years you get a guy who is a bit taller with great top line watts and good watts per kilo to keep up with the pure climbers, and who has a team with a deep budget who can buy out many rivals who think they don't have a chance as team leaders and will play super domestique for a big guranteed salary. Then it's all over.

Title of the thread was a bit controversial. You'd still have a prologue, a late TTT and maybe a short ITT on week 2. If we want to stick with tradition, we can also go back to riding on unpaved roads too, but they don't do that anymore.

Or maybe all you have to do is remove radio communication to riders from team cars and it blows open the tactics on the road when the only way of knowing how far the breakaway guys are is when the guy on the moto shows you the delta on a chalk board!
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:
Smaller teams, no race radio, shorter stages....that is what you need to open up the racing.
How small woudl the teams need to be? 6-7 person?
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Power13 wrote:
Smaller teams, no race radio, shorter stages....that is what you need to open up the racing.
How small woudl the teams need to be? 6-7 person?

Don't think you could get teams to agree to 6....even 7 would be tough, but I think that is a good number.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [Brooks Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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haha....what about adding a mountain bike stage ....or a canoe stage?.......anything to even it up.....
Last edited by: lacticturkey: Jul 23, 16 13:47
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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lacticturkey wrote:
haha....what about adding a mountain bike stage ....or a canoe stage?.......anything to even it up.....

Well we had running this year!!!
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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That's kinda what they did last year with a 13.8km prologue and 28km team time trial. The yellow jersey and polka dot jersey essentially became the same thing, as Froome won both jerseys.

"The amount of time gained on the TT's make it impossible to gain back on other stages"
That's not the fault of the TT, but instead an indication of the lack of competition to Froome at the moment. A couple years ago, I feel Contador was right there with Froome. I think the GC is already biased towards climbers. For example, there are plenty of below average TT-ers in the Tour de France top 10, but there is rarely a below average climber.
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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It seems like the only way the Tour can become "wide open" again is if they minimize the value of TT's.

Why not maximize the value of TTs? Take these puny climbers out of the equation. Only flat roads, TTs every other day. Road stages give substantial time bonuses. Only TTers and sprinters have a chance, who will win? Ok, Sagan. Probably. Now we just need to come up with a new scheme to disadvantage him. ;)

If Froome dominates both TTs and climbs, oh well. That's what it means to be a champion. If you want drama, then focus on the race for 2nd and 3rd.
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Mountains in France are more of a "constant W/kg climb" instead of a climber's challenge.

Just look at the Giro's Mountain ITT.


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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
It seems like the only way the Tour can become "wide open" again is if they minimize the value of TT's.

Why not maximize the value of TTs? Take these puny climbers out of the equation. Only flat roads, TTs every other day. Road stages give substantial time bonuses. Only TTers and sprinters have a chance, who will win? Ok, Sagan. Probably. Now we just need to come up with a new scheme to disadvantage him. ;)

If Froome dominates both TTs and climbs, oh well. That's what it means to be a champion. If you want drama, then focus on the race for 2nd and 3rd.

I thought the race that Froome put on was awesome for 16 days. He totally deserved to win. Last 5 stages were about watching the GC shake out (closest GC ever for the top 10). You do have a good point that if you have a flatter course, and long TT's and big time bonuses on flat stages you could totally change things in favour of the larger riders. Not a bad idea. I think in the early 80's the Giro was very much like that when Saronni and Moser were beating up on each other. Moser was winning (Or competitive) in the Giro while also winning Paris Roubaix. I think the organizers "flattened the course" so that him and Saronni could go head to head and they awarded big time bonuses for flatter stages.
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Power13 wrote:
Smaller teams, no race radio, shorter stages....that is what you need to open up the racing.
How small woudl the teams need to be? 6-7 person?


Don't think you could get teams to agree to 6....even 7 would be tough, but I think that is a good number.
"We're the ASO! We're telling you, six riders per team. If you don't like it, don't bother to come!"

They could invite 30 teams (180 riders total) vs. the current 22 teams (198 riders total).

You'd still have all of the UCI WorldTeams but then you could have more Pro Conti teams. (Making it possible to attract more sponsors?)

You'd start the race with fewer riders on the road. (Fewer crashes?)

The "bottom 3" riders on most teams (maybe not for Sky) are simply spear carriers. (Nice to have, but not absolutely essential.) Everyone would still have five riders to support the team leader or to set up their sprint leadout train but it wouldn't be as easy to have one team grinding away at the front of the peloton for 200 kilometers day after day.

Two guys per room so you only need to book three hotel rooms for a team's riders. (With nine riders (an odd number), who are the unlucky ones who get stuck in a three person room?)

Fewer bikes for each team to maintain/carry around on the team car. (Save the "poor" teams a few euros?)

Riders "left off" the TdF squad would be "available" to ride the Giro and/or Vuelta. (More "star power" for those races?)

Bottom line. This is pro cycling. They'll never change.

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Makes it more wide open for guys who can't tt ;)
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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They more or less did that 2 years ago where it only had a prologue (ish) TT to start and it didn't change any results. What they need is varied terrain and to move past the script of TTs and mountains to decide things. I'm thinking specifically 2 years ago where Paris Nice had neither. Best 1 week race in a while by a long shot and won by Betancur.

Adding stages like cobbles (Roubaix and Flanders type), LBL type routes, Mur DE Huy finishes and you force riders to learn things other than pure w/kg, produce more complete champions, and make it more interesting to watch. Those two stages where Froome took time on the descent and in the win were refreshing to see. Design the course to force these types of moves.

And most of all if you're going to do short mountain stage to force action, don't put in a 20km valley between your mountains.
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
It seems like the only way the Tour can become "wide open" again is if they minimize the value of TT's.

Why not maximize the value of TTs? Take these puny climbers out of the equation. Only flat roads, TTs every other day. Road stages give substantial time bonuses. Only TTers and sprinters have a chance, who will win? Ok, Sagan. Probably. Now we just need to come up with a new scheme to disadvantage him. ;)

If Froome dominates both TTs and climbs, oh well. That's what it means to be a champion. If you want drama, then focus on the race for 2nd and 3rd.

I wouldn't mind seeing a flatter TDF, the format is a bit stale how it is. Few flat stages, Pyrenees and then Alps every single year, no chance of an all round strong man ever winning.
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [TriguyBlue] [ In reply to ]
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TriguyBlue wrote:
rruff wrote:
It seems like the only way the Tour can become "wide open" again is if they minimize the value of TT's.

Why not maximize the value of TTs? Take these puny climbers out of the equation. Only flat roads, TTs every other day. Road stages give substantial time bonuses. Only TTers and sprinters have a chance, who will win? Ok, Sagan. Probably. Now we just need to come up with a new scheme to disadvantage him. ;)

If Froome dominates both TTs and climbs, oh well. That's what it means to be a champion. If you want drama, then focus on the race for 2nd and 3rd.


I wouldn't mind seeing a flatter TDF, the format is a bit stale how it is. Few flat stages, Pyrenees and then Alps every single year, no chance of an all round strong man ever winning.

If they had a flatter tour on the mountain side, and then offered big time bonuses (like 45,30, 15, 10, 5 seconds) on the intermediate sprints and if there are enough of those, that could make it wide open
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
TriguyBlue wrote:
rruff wrote:
It seems like the only way the Tour can become "wide open" again is if they minimize the value of TT's.

Why not maximize the value of TTs? Take these puny climbers out of the equation. Only flat roads, TTs every other day. Road stages give substantial time bonuses. Only TTers and sprinters have a chance, who will win? Ok, Sagan. Probably. Now we just need to come up with a new scheme to disadvantage him. ;)

If Froome dominates both TTs and climbs, oh well. That's what it means to be a champion. If you want drama, then focus on the race for 2nd and 3rd.


I wouldn't mind seeing a flatter TDF, the format is a bit stale how it is. Few flat stages, Pyrenees and then Alps every single year, no chance of an all round strong man ever winning.

If they had a flatter tour on the mountain side, and then offered big time bonuses (like 45,30, 15, 10, 5 seconds) on the intermediate sprints and if there are enough of those, that could make it wide open

Can't buy off on that idea at all....stage races should be won on the road, not through time bonuses. I don't mind time bonuses early in a race to liven up the flat stages, but once you get into the meat of the racing, they should be over and done with.

And there was a relatively "flat" tour in 2012....and it was insanely boring. Adding huge time bonuses would just mean that you have 160K processional stages where breaks are never allowed to get away and the inevitable bunch gallop takes place.

I honestly can't think of a worse format.

If you want to minimize the impact of TT's, then simply shorten them. Time gaps between riders will be smaller, which will then encourage animated racing on the road. Shorten some of the mountain stages and you will have an attacking race.

Super-long and mountainous stages don't encourage active racing, it encourages defensive riding. Further, since the strongest rider normally wins a stage race, they will also dominate a stage like that. Shorter stages are more wide open since riders' legs are fresher.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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I wouldn't have it pancake flat, throw in some medium mountains, cobbles and cross winds :)
I agree that the flat sprinters stages can be a bit boring, but so are these super long mountain stages where the GC riders go on the easy side until 2km to go on the final climb. They need more 70-80km stages, little bit of flat leading to a single mountain top finish, I'm sure they did that with Ventoux a few years back.
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [TriguyBlue] [ In reply to ]
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TriguyBlue wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing a flatter TDF, the format is a bit stale how it is. Few flat stages, Pyrenees and then Alps every single year, no chance of an all round strong man ever winning.

IMO that would suck. All around strong men have plenty of other races tailored for their strengths. The TdF is the world championship of all around climbing, TT ability, and endurance. Note that the first two tend to be at odds with each other. A dominant winner like Froome is far from one dimensional.
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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I'd argue that out of the grand tours, the tdf isn't the climbing world champs, it probably has the weakest climbs.
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [TriguyBlue] [ In reply to ]
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It doesn't matter how tough the climbs are. What matters is who shows up to win. At the TdF that is the best riders in the world. Not so at the other tours.
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [philly1x] [ In reply to ]
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philly1x wrote:
This race you envision: I think it's called the Vuelta a EspaƱa.

Also, historically, one cannot win a grand tour with out being able to TT really, really well.
So, maybe, what are you getting at?

Indeed. I distinctly remember a Liggetism where he remarked on Pantani, something to the effect of "he exploded the modern myth that climbers couldn't win grand tours by winning two."

Time Trials have been instrumental for a very long time.
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Re: Musings on TdF Format: What about no ITT's [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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A few thoughts i've always had. Why not finish every mt stage with a mt top finish. I get that descending is a critical skill, but it would seem to me to have 2 mt top passes back to back where someone could attack knowing that if they stayed away or atleast pushed the descend, they would only have to climb again. How many times have we seen the Tours won on descending skills? I'd say very very few in terms of it mattering because more times than not, the mass of the group with the long run into town finishes, leaves the time gaps smaller. Never understood why they'd have a HC climb and then a 25k run in down to the town finish, and majority of the time, riders would close any gaps that formed on the climb....and i'll say again, yes i understand descending is a skill and should be used. They can use it on every other mountain climb that builds to the ultimate mt. top finish for mountain stages.

I actually thought it was badass to have the final day iTT. Of course that leaves everyone on edge until the very end, and maybe the riders like the 'free' day that the final stage has finally become. So my question is, why did they have last stage as iTT and what caused them to go away from it?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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