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Most important run for marathon training?

 
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TimBikeToo

May 31, 12 7:31

Post #26 of 38 (1022 views)
Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Why don't you run an hour solo before finding a group/friend to join you for an additional 90min?


Rowleska

May 31, 12 9:25

Post #27 of 38 (985 views)
Re: Most important run for marathon training? [TimBikeToo] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
I've only run 4 marathons so I'm not an expert, however I do seem to hit my numbers pretty well.
I've tried a few different approaches as far as MPW is concerned. Most of my runs were 10+ miles long. Most of my runs were close to race pace (some faster, some slower).

My first marathon I did a hal higdon plan. Maybe intermediate 2 or something.
For Columbus I think I maxed out at 70 mpw, but I had given up swimming and biking entirely.
For Boston I ran a half marathon every other day and 2x on weekends. Mostly at race pace. I was still swimming and biking the other days.
For Cleveland I was totally burnt out from Boston and never got must past 40 mpw at all. (pr'd by about 30 seconds - It was HOT)

Most of my times were faster or equal to what I expected with the exception of Boston which nearly killed me.

For me it's all tempo runs normally 10+ miles. I did a 20 mile race simulation before every marathon. For my last one it was accurate to the second! (Officially I ran slower, but my garmin was also off due to course measurement 26.43 miles).


sweddy

May 31, 12 9:36

Post #28 of 38 (976 views)
Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Clearly it's important to be comfortable in your long runs, including several in the 3-hr range. Let's call that table stakes.
Beyond that I've seen the best performances out of myself and others when incorporating a regular mid-week semi-long run. Particularly if it's got a nice chunky tempo piece in the middle. Like a 90-minute run that includes a 40-minute tempo right in the middle.
Ran a 3:05 at age 50 doing this, with weekly volume of around 50 miles on good weeks, might have hit 60 once or twice.


Printer86

May 31, 12 10:56

Post #29 of 38 (952 views)
Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
This is a good thread. Different people can point to different runs that got them ready for the marathon. I think that marathon pace runs in the 13-15 mile range are great confidence builders, but long runs are key to running a marathon.

Long runs are between 18-22 miles run every other week. I know a lot of people that run the first 10-14 miles of their long run alone and then jump into a race for the balance of the run.

The number of runs you do each week should equate to the first digit of your weekly mileage +1. Example, a 50 mile week should take 6 runs and a 70 mile week should take 8 runs.

Search the fall marathon training thread from last year to get some ideas too.

Good Luck
___________________________________________

I will be back for the 2014 Boston Marathon just to say FU to the bad guys.


denali2001

May 31, 12 11:28

Post #30 of 38 (929 views)
Re: Most important run for marathon training? [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
This FTW. Long run is overrated. Focus on weekly mileage. Beginner to even intermediate marathoners stress about the long run so much that they forget about the other six days of the week. Let's put it this way... if you get yourself to running 8-10 miles every day, then there is no such thing as a long run anymore. You just wake up and knock off a twenty miler without thinking twice.


jonahsdad

May 31, 12 13:23

Post #31 of 38 (897 views)
Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
My 3 core workouts - got to 2:39 with these and 70+ mpw

-long runs - up to 22 for me. 18-20 is probably sufficient. Some say do these easy, I liked to gradually increase the pace with the last 25% about 10-20 seconds off of race pace.
-8-10 mile tempos at marathon race pace.
-3-5 mile tempo at between 10K and half marathon race pace (the true classic "tempo" run)

Most people can't do all three every week and still get adequate recovery. A 10-14 day cycle or 2 out of 3 each week will work.

Side note: Doubles are not worth it unless you are at 60+ mpw, especially if you are cutting back on your first run in order to do the second.


Greggor

May 31, 12 14:59

Post #32 of 38 (851 views)
Re: Most important run for marathon training? [Green Barf] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
That is funny, I thought as I ran this morning that you were referring to George Malley. Fine for a guy doing 145+ miles per week, but a guy doing 45 and hoping to go for a BQ and also HIM? Seriously? The general consensus has been that two a days become a necessity when you hit ~75 mpw (according to Pfitzinger, won Olympic Trials - Malmo was in that race as well). I guess if you like getting dressed and undressed that much, have at it, just doesn't leave much time for the swim and the bike.


triitagain

Jun 5, 12 19:04

Post #33 of 38 (754 views)
Re: Most important run for marathon training? [Greggor] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Personally, having just 4 marathons under my belt, I would say the long runs are most important. Half marathons and marathons are two different animals, you may be able to do a half in 1:30:00 but that really has no bearing on a 26.2 mile run. Some will say that 20 mile long runs are enough and I'm sure if you run a couple of 20 milers you will finish a full M but you will be ill prepared for whats coming at mile 22 or 23. I think all first timers should run a full in practice about 6 weeks out from their race.

The wall they speak of is when your body turns to burning fat for fuel and when it happens the first time it's a shock to you and your body. If you fuel right during the race the wall is minimal, if not, it is not a fun place to be during your first marathon. The old race plans had you running 30 as your longest and it teaches you and your body something about long endurance.

If you want to have a fun and enjoyable first marathon, do your long runs on a good plan schedule on the weekends and get your mileage in during the week with tempo runs and such. If you say you don't like running more than 2 hours , matbe a full marathon isn't for you and stick to halfs . It certainly will benefit your HIM aspirations.


snackchair

Jun 6, 12 7:25

Post #34 of 38 (695 views)
Re: Most important run for marathon training? [Greggor] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
There's no set cutoff for when you should start doubling. The goal in training is to try to acheive the maximum sustainable load. If the only way you can hit 'x' miles per week is to split your runs, then you should do so, regardless of how much you're running. Keep in mind the toll of 75 mpw on the body isn't the same for all runners. Someone who's been high high mileage for years probably can afford to do 75 in singles... but for anyone upping their mileage to reach that for the first time, I would recommend doubles starting much eariler.

A good metric is the number of runs per week is equal to the first digit of the mileage plus at least 1, though I think 2 is better if you're going into uncharted terriority (50mpw=7 runs, 60=8 runs, 70=9 runs, etc).

If you have time, there's no detriment to splitting your runs, especially on easy days. Two 5's is much easier on the body than 10 straight.
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Newyorkfan21

Jun 6, 12 7:33

Post #35 of 38 (690 views)
Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
rpeterson wrote:
So, I'm training for a marathon and a HIM, currently doing ~45mpw with 2 8 mile tempo runs and a long run of 15. The long run is right about 2 hours, and I have a hard time getting myself to run longer than that in training, so I was thinking of upping my tempo runs in both length and pace (though not at the same time).

I talked to some friends who do marathons, and they all say I should be getting my long run up first, but they're all pretty slow runners, and I'm trying to get a BQ, so I'm not sure if it's the most appropriate advice for me.

So, long run up, or harder runs up? What say you Slowtwitch brain collective.

Running a fast marathon or a fast HIM run isn't about just increasing your long runs.

Running is about frequency and intensity. I have shaved around 8-10 minutes off my HIM run time within 1 year off that philosophy.


rdmyers

Jun 7, 12 8:40

Post #36 of 38 (617 views)
Re: Most important run for marathon training? [snackchair] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Quote:
Someone who's been high high mileage for years probably can afford to do 75 in singles... but for anyone upping their mileage to reach that for the first time, I would recommend doubles starting much eariler.

I've only run 1/2 marathons, and started running late in life, when I was close to 40yo. I can vouch for the statement above from personal experience. You need to arrive at start line injury free.
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some days you're the windshield some days the bug


Nasrettin Hoca

Jun 7, 12 11:12

Post #37 of 38 (577 views)
Re: Most important run for marathon training? [Printer86] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Printer86 wrote:
This is a good thread. Different people can point to different runs that got them ready for the marathon.

+ 1

Obviously, different things work for different people at different times. That's ok though, you change up your training from time to time and find out what works for you.

My first running career, in the Army 40 years ago, was 5 milers 4 times a day. One before breakfast, 2 to go there and back to a class or an exercise and 5 in the evening on a rock track around a wrecked helicopter. So I was doing about 100 mpw with weekends off. But I could do a 20 "cross country" in about 2.5 hours with that. Not easy, pretty well wiped after, but doable.

Given what I know now, doing a 20 after banging out a zillion 5s, is ridiculous. No one at RW recommends this. But the Army seems to know how to do these things. I'm getting a little support above with those that say the doubles. No doubt, they jack up the overall weekly mileage more than running only once per day.

Of course the Army isn't interested in a BQ. They have different objectives.

I started again at 60 and did my first Marathon last year. My most important run, was a 26 (much walking) I did 4 months before. Gave me the feel for the distance and do the rest of my training with that as a yardstick.


PapaBear

Jun 7, 12 12:28

Post #38 of 38 (560 views)
Re: Most important run for marathon training? [Nasrettin Hoca] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
OK- how about this question: What is the most Important bike workout for [the bike leg of] an Ironman?

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