I'm basically stuck at 1:32 at 25x100s. I averaged 1:32-1:33 last year on the same set. I swim consistently at 10-15K per week. I have a few weeks that dip below 10k but majority is in the 10-15k range. I've tried drills but they don't seem to help. I never tried swim paddles or band though. Do I just need more volume and intensity to get below 1:32? I don't do flip turns so I'm probably a little faster than 1:32 in the pool. My open water times are much faster. But the point is that I'm stuck at this speed. My all out 100 is 1:26 and I can't break this either.
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Re: More swim volume needed? [trilove12345]
[ In reply to ]
Describe a typical training week (in the pool). Sets, paces, rest intervals.
How long have you been swimming?
age?
gender?
Swimming Workout of the Day:
Favourite Swim Sets:
2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
How long have you been swimming?
age?
gender?
Swimming Workout of the Day:
Favourite Swim Sets:
2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Re: More swim volume needed? [trilove12345]
[ In reply to ]
Just a question:
Could you swim faster on more rest?
Could you do that once a week - harder intervals on more rest?
Could you swim faster on more rest?
Could you do that once a week - harder intervals on more rest?
Re: More swim volume needed? [trilove12345]
[ In reply to ]
Oh, almost forgot:
More swim volume is ALWAYS needed. (unless you are at 80K per week or higher)
The better question is how to maximize the benefit of the volume you do.
Swimming Workout of the Day:
Favourite Swim Sets:
2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
More swim volume is ALWAYS needed. (unless you are at 80K per week or higher)
The better question is how to maximize the benefit of the volume you do.
Swimming Workout of the Day:
Favourite Swim Sets:
2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Re: More swim volume needed? [JasoninHalifax]
[ In reply to ]
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Describe a typical training week (in the pool). Sets, paces, rest intervals. How long have you been swimming?
age?
gender?
I've been swimming for 4.5 years, 38 years old, male.
A typical training week is 4x2500-3500 yards with 100s, 50s, 300s. I do some ladder work as well. My go to set is 10x100 and 12x50 as fast as I can go with warm up and cool down.
Re: More swim volume needed? [jaretj]
[ In reply to ]
jaretj wrote:
Just a question: Could you swim faster on more rest?
Could you do that once a week - harder intervals on more rest?
I would be a little faster on more rest but not much.
Re: More swim volume needed? [trilove12345]
[ In reply to ]
doesn't sound like you vary your pace much at all in training, and are lacking basic speed. I'm guessing those "10x100 as afast as you can go," is with about 20 seconds rest between efforts? Those sets are great for raising your threshold to your max speed, but don't do a lot for raising yur max speed itself.
At least once a week, preferably twice, dedicate a practice to raising your maximum speed.
Your max right now is about 43 secs per 50, so an example main set for raising your speed limt might be something like:
5 x (4x 50 descend 1-4) on 1:20 (tons of rest) for each block of 4, #1 is ez with good form, #2 is fast 12.5, ez 37.5, #3 ez 37.5 fast 12.5, #4 is all fast. On #4 you should be hitting 43's or 44's.
This is the practice I did yesterday: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=5349108#5349108 You won't be hitting these times, but the principles are the same. All out efforts with lots of rest. (I didn't putl in all the details, but for your reference I descended the 100's from 1:18 to 1:12 , then 1:05 or 1:04) 1:18 is really easy for me, a 1:12 is moderately difficult, and 1:05 in practice is flat out. the 50's went from 37 - 34 - 31 (29 on the second time through) In your case, I would replace the 100's with 75's because you want to keep it fast.
Swimming Workout of the Day:
Favourite Swim Sets:
2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
At least once a week, preferably twice, dedicate a practice to raising your maximum speed.
Your max right now is about 43 secs per 50, so an example main set for raising your speed limt might be something like:
5 x (4x 50 descend 1-4) on 1:20 (tons of rest) for each block of 4, #1 is ez with good form, #2 is fast 12.5, ez 37.5, #3 ez 37.5 fast 12.5, #4 is all fast. On #4 you should be hitting 43's or 44's.
This is the practice I did yesterday: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=5349108#5349108 You won't be hitting these times, but the principles are the same. All out efforts with lots of rest. (I didn't putl in all the details, but for your reference I descended the 100's from 1:18 to 1:12 , then 1:05 or 1:04) 1:18 is really easy for me, a 1:12 is moderately difficult, and 1:05 in practice is flat out. the 50's went from 37 - 34 - 31 (29 on the second time through) In your case, I would replace the 100's with 75's because you want to keep it fast.
Swimming Workout of the Day:
Favourite Swim Sets:
2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Re: More swim volume needed? [JasoninHalifax]
[ In reply to ]
JasoninHalifax wrote:
doesn't sound like you vary your pace much at all in training, and are lacking basic speed. I'm guessing those "10x100 as afast as you can go," is with about 20 seconds rest between efforts? Those sets are great for raising your threshold to your max speed, but don't do a lot for raising yur max speed itself. At least once a week, preferably twice, dedicate a practice to raising your maximum speed.
Your max right now is about 43 secs per 50, so an example main set for raising your speed limt might be something like:
5 x (4x 50 descend 1-4) on 1:20 (tons of rest) for each block of 4, #1 is ez with good form, #2 is fast 12.5, ez 37.5, #3 ez 37.5 fast 12.5, #4 is all fast. On #4 you should be hitting 43's or 44's.
This is the practice I did yesterday: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=5349108#5349108 You won't be hitting these times, but the principles are the same. All out efforts with lots of rest. (I didn't putl in all the details, but for your reference I descended the 100's from 1:18 to 1:12 , then 1:05 or 1:04) 1:18 is really easy for me, a 1:12 is moderately difficult, and 1:05 in practice is flat out. the 50's went from 37 - 34 - 31 (29 on the second time through) In your case, I would replace the 100's with 75's because you want to keep it fast.
Ok thanks. So basically the shorter stuff 25s,50s is better for me since I need to practice going fast. But don't I need to do this with more volume as well?
Re: More swim volume needed? [trilove12345]
[ In reply to ]
That's an amazingly small difference between "all out" and reps.
I'm slower than you in the repeats yet considerably faster than you on the all out.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not claiming to be fast and I swim less than half your volume.
But as a long time swimmer and competitor (eons ago) I did learn how to race.
The only objective observation is that you know how to swim, but you don't know how to race.
The solution is you need to spend some time doing just that. Going fast. Racing.
Racing over 25m or 50m consistently will teach you what makes you faster.
Sprint stroke and body position changes when you go all out.
You need to know how to apply power and to accelerate your stroke rate.
Without losing form.
It may be your kick, your pull or your body position.
But you won't know which it is until you experiment with all of it.
All out.
I don't believe you need to swim more, I do believe you need to swim "all out" more often.
If you swim with a group and they don't race, all out, often, you should enlist a training buddy
(someone who is faster than you is good) and a stopwatch (wall clock?)
I'm slower than you in the repeats yet considerably faster than you on the all out.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not claiming to be fast and I swim less than half your volume.
But as a long time swimmer and competitor (eons ago) I did learn how to race.
The only objective observation is that you know how to swim, but you don't know how to race.
The solution is you need to spend some time doing just that. Going fast. Racing.
Racing over 25m or 50m consistently will teach you what makes you faster.
Sprint stroke and body position changes when you go all out.
You need to know how to apply power and to accelerate your stroke rate.
Without losing form.
It may be your kick, your pull or your body position.
But you won't know which it is until you experiment with all of it.
All out.
I don't believe you need to swim more, I do believe you need to swim "all out" more often.
If you swim with a group and they don't race, all out, often, you should enlist a training buddy
(someone who is faster than you is good) and a stopwatch (wall clock?)
Re: More swim volume needed? [trilove12345]
[ In reply to ]
Surprised no one has commented on your open turns. I guarantee you will be faster with flip turns. I am an open turner...and today I shared a lane with a guy (we split it), he and I when swimming were the same, but at the turn he would gap me.
Re: More swim volume needed? [trilove12345]
[ In reply to ]
The number that have not improved on more volume is far lower than he number that have made significant improvements on more volume when both groups have been swimming what you've been swimming.
Rarely will more volume be the wrong answer. The more correct answer will be in the structure of that volume.
Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta
Rarely will more volume be the wrong answer. The more correct answer will be in the structure of that volume.
Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta
Re: More swim volume needed? [desert dude]
[ In reply to ]
Thanks for the advice guys! I'm in the same boat as the poster.
I almost never do speed sets with rest, I like long tempo intervals 10min+ to clear my mind.
I don't know why I don't like speed sets, probably because I suck at it (I'm stuck at the same pace 1:30 for 1 year now). I like biking and running speed intervals, but in the pool, it seems to take out the "fun" to always check the clock.. at least for me.
Free Indoor Cycling Software - https://maximumtrainer.com
I almost never do speed sets with rest, I like long tempo intervals 10min+ to clear my mind.
I don't know why I don't like speed sets, probably because I suck at it (I'm stuck at the same pace 1:30 for 1 year now). I like biking and running speed intervals, but in the pool, it seems to take out the "fun" to always check the clock.. at least for me.
Free Indoor Cycling Software - https://maximumtrainer.com
Last edited by:
MaximumTrainer: Nov 28, 14 10:34
Re: More swim volume needed? [blueraider_mike]
[ In reply to ]
yes, he'll be faster with flip turns, but that has nothing to do with actually swimming faster. He should learn flip turns for lots of other reasons, but breaking through this plateau isn't one of them..
Swimming Workout of the Day:
Favourite Swim Sets:
2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Swimming Workout of the Day:
Favourite Swim Sets:
2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Re: More swim volume needed? [trilove12345]
[ In reply to ]
trilove12345 wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
doesn't sound like you vary your pace much at all in training, and are lacking basic speed. I'm guessing those "10x100 as afast as you can go," is with about 20 seconds rest between efforts? Those sets are great for raising your threshold to your max speed, but don't do a lot for raising yur max speed itself. At least once a week, preferably twice, dedicate a practice to raising your maximum speed.
Your max right now is about 43 secs per 50, so an example main set for raising your speed limt might be something like:
5 x (4x 50 descend 1-4) on 1:20 (tons of rest) for each block of 4, #1 is ez with good form, #2 is fast 12.5, ez 37.5, #3 ez 37.5 fast 12.5, #4 is all fast. On #4 you should be hitting 43's or 44's.
This is the practice I did yesterday: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=5349108#5349108 You won't be hitting these times, but the principles are the same. All out efforts with lots of rest. (I didn't putl in all the details, but for your reference I descended the 100's from 1:18 to 1:12 , then 1:05 or 1:04) 1:18 is really easy for me, a 1:12 is moderately difficult, and 1:05 in practice is flat out. the 50's went from 37 - 34 - 31 (29 on the second time through) In your case, I would replace the 100's with 75's because you want to keep it fast.
Ok thanks. So basically the shorter stuff 25s,50s is better for me since I need to practice going fast. But don't I need to do this with more volume as well?
you are doing enough volume to swim faster than you are going now. More volume is always better, but more volume by itself isn't going to do it if all you do is go from 10x100 at your current pace to 15x100 at your current pace. You need to learn how to swim fast.
Swimming Workout of the Day:
Favourite Swim Sets:
2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Re: More swim volume needed? [JasoninHalifax]
[ In reply to ]
JasoninHalifax wrote:
trilove12345 wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
doesn't sound like you vary your pace much at all in training, and are lacking basic speed. I'm guessing those "10x100 as afast as you can go," is with about 20 seconds rest between efforts? Those sets are great for raising your threshold to your max speed, but don't do a lot for raising yur max speed itself. At least once a week, preferably twice, dedicate a practice to raising your maximum speed.
Your max right now is about 43 secs per 50, so an example main set for raising your speed limt might be something like:
5 x (4x 50 descend 1-4) on 1:20 (tons of rest) for each block of 4, #1 is ez with good form, #2 is fast 12.5, ez 37.5, #3 ez 37.5 fast 12.5, #4 is all fast. On #4 you should be hitting 43's or 44's.
This is the practice I did yesterday: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=5349108#5349108 You won't be hitting these times, but the principles are the same. All out efforts with lots of rest. (I didn't putl in all the details, but for your reference I descended the 100's from 1:18 to 1:12 , then 1:05 or 1:04) 1:18 is really easy for me, a 1:12 is moderately difficult, and 1:05 in practice is flat out. the 50's went from 37 - 34 - 31 (29 on the second time through) In your case, I would replace the 100's with 75's because you want to keep it fast.
Ok thanks. So basically the shorter stuff 25s,50s is better for me since I need to practice going fast. But don't I need to do this with more volume as well?
you are doing enough volume to swim faster than you are going now. More volume is always better, but more volume by itself isn't going to do it if all you do is go from 10x100 at your current pace to 15x100 at your current pace. You need to learn how to swim fast.
So my next question is....assuming same technique....will I get faster by doing the shorter/harder stuff?
Re: More swim volume needed? [trilove12345]
[ In reply to ]
Get comfortable being uncomfortable. That weird feeling when you're swimming hard and your body wants to go easier -- just ignore it and swim harder. Sounds odd, but it works. Kind of like "shut up legs" but for swimming.
Re: More swim volume needed? [trilove12345]
[ In reply to ]
bottom line, yes...
(this isn't the only way, but given your lack of a top end, that tells me that you need to learn how to swim faster. It isn't that you can't, physiologically speaking, but that you don't know how).
comfortable being uncomfortable is a good way to put it.
in warmup, sometimes it is a struggle to hit a 38 second 50 at first. I'm not yet comfortable at that pace. later in the workout, hitting 32's or 33's feels easier than those 38's at the beginning, because I've got a groove and it is now comfortable for me to be uncomfortable. and in a longer set, you don't slow down, even though you really want to, because you know that it will be SOOO hard to get that groove back.
Swimming Workout of the Day:
Favourite Swim Sets:
2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
(this isn't the only way, but given your lack of a top end, that tells me that you need to learn how to swim faster. It isn't that you can't, physiologically speaking, but that you don't know how).
comfortable being uncomfortable is a good way to put it.
in warmup, sometimes it is a struggle to hit a 38 second 50 at first. I'm not yet comfortable at that pace. later in the workout, hitting 32's or 33's feels easier than those 38's at the beginning, because I've got a groove and it is now comfortable for me to be uncomfortable. and in a longer set, you don't slow down, even though you really want to, because you know that it will be SOOO hard to get that groove back.
Swimming Workout of the Day:
Favourite Swim Sets:
2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Re: More swim volume needed? [trilove12345]
[ In reply to ]
trilove12345 wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
trilove12345 wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
doesn't sound like you vary your pace much at all in training, and are lacking basic speed. I'm guessing those "10x100 as afast as you can go," is with about 20 seconds rest between efforts? Those sets are great for raising your threshold to your max speed, but don't do a lot for raising yur max speed itself. At least once a week, preferably twice, dedicate a practice to raising your maximum speed.
Your max right now is about 43 secs per 50, so an example main set for raising your speed limt might be something like:
5 x (4x 50 descend 1-4) on 1:20 (tons of rest) for each block of 4, #1 is ez with good form, #2 is fast 12.5, ez 37.5, #3 ez 37.5 fast 12.5, #4 is all fast. On #4 you should be hitting 43's or 44's.
This is the practice I did yesterday: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=5349108#5349108 You won't be hitting these times, but the principles are the same. All out efforts with lots of rest. (I didn't putl in all the details, but for your reference I descended the 100's from 1:18 to 1:12 , then 1:05 or 1:04) 1:18 is really easy for me, a 1:12 is moderately difficult, and 1:05 in practice is flat out. the 50's went from 37 - 34 - 31 (29 on the second time through) In your case, I would replace the 100's with 75's because you want to keep it fast.
Ok thanks. So basically the shorter stuff 25s,50s is better for me since I need to practice going fast. But don't I need to do this with more volume as well?
you are doing enough volume to swim faster than you are going now. More volume is always better, but more volume by itself isn't going to do it if all you do is go from 10x100 at your current pace to 15x100 at your current pace. You need to learn how to swim fast.
So my next question is....assuming same technique....will I get faster by doing the shorter/harder stuff?
Yes. When i first started swimming competitively at age 13, we had a 4-lane, 20-yd pool and 10 to 40 kids at each practice, so we swam heats of 4 kids per heat. We swam mostly 40s, 80 IMs, 100s, 160 IMs, and 200s, all on long rest of about 5 to 15 min, so every swim was essentially all out. In my first season (5 months), I dropped from 1:40 to 1:15 for 100 scy. No drills at all and very little instruction other than a quick "bend your arms more" when I was doing a straight arm pull, and "kick more" when I was letting my legs drag. Regarding drills, I never even heard the word drill until I started swimming with a masters group:)
"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Re: More swim volume needed? [MaximumTrainer]
[ In reply to ]
60x25 @ 40 flat out...
Do 20 then 50 easy x3
Watch the lifeguards freak when you puke ...
___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
Do 20 then 50 easy x3
Watch the lifeguards freak when you puke ...
___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
Re: More swim volume needed? [JasoninHalifax]
[ In reply to ]
Did
20x50 @ 50 33 high on almost all, felt like 6-7/10 effort
90 sec rest
20x50 @45 same pace. Actually felt better on round 2.
___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
20x50 @ 50 33 high on almost all, felt like 6-7/10 effort
90 sec rest
20x50 @45 same pace. Actually felt better on round 2.
___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
Post deleted by PcB
[ In reply to ]
Re: More swim volume needed? [JasoninHalifax]
[ In reply to ]
I'm pretty much in the same boat, but a few seconds off per 100.
I've started throwing in 50's at the end of the workout, doing between 300 and 500 that way, as fast as I can go. I still alternate breath sides - so 50 to the right, then 50 to the left. It has helped; I often forget which side is my "bad side" when I push off the wall, but the areas where I need to improve are different on either side.
However - I'm constantly fatigued. I'm swimming 5-6 days per week, targeting 3 days at 3000 and 3 days at 1800. The short days are swim-before-work days. This is a relatively recent bump in volume for me, coming up from months at about 7500-8000 per week. There is no swim workout I do now where after about half the workout my back and shoulders just feel blown.
If this were the bike, I'd call myself overtrained and scale back some of the volume, but swimming doesn't seem to work that way. My upper body muscles just aren't as developed for the hour-plus efforts, and I think that the long workouts are effectively building up the base - effectively training my body that they are my "legs" in the water. This seems like a good theory to me, but I have a history of overtraining (with subsequent injury).
The question is: Should I keep up this volume and intensity, or should I back off for a week or so and "periodize" the heavy spurts in 2-3 week blocks?
I've started throwing in 50's at the end of the workout, doing between 300 and 500 that way, as fast as I can go. I still alternate breath sides - so 50 to the right, then 50 to the left. It has helped; I often forget which side is my "bad side" when I push off the wall, but the areas where I need to improve are different on either side.
However - I'm constantly fatigued. I'm swimming 5-6 days per week, targeting 3 days at 3000 and 3 days at 1800. The short days are swim-before-work days. This is a relatively recent bump in volume for me, coming up from months at about 7500-8000 per week. There is no swim workout I do now where after about half the workout my back and shoulders just feel blown.
If this were the bike, I'd call myself overtrained and scale back some of the volume, but swimming doesn't seem to work that way. My upper body muscles just aren't as developed for the hour-plus efforts, and I think that the long workouts are effectively building up the base - effectively training my body that they are my "legs" in the water. This seems like a good theory to me, but I have a history of overtraining (with subsequent injury).
The question is: Should I keep up this volume and intensity, or should I back off for a week or so and "periodize" the heavy spurts in 2-3 week blocks?
Re: More swim volume needed? [benjpi]
[ In reply to ]
I'll defer to the actual coaches for that one. Although I can tell you how I typically schedule things.
My personal schedule is such that I have to take every other weekend as a rest weekend, to spend time with my daughter. I usually take Friday's off ( this week was an anomaly). I feel like scheduling rest time is critical, because it is the rest that allows you to get faster, not the work itself.
Occasionally I do throw in a longer block where I don't take the Friday rest day. After 10 days straight, a rest is definitely welcome and necessary.
If your shoulders are feeling it, be careful and have a good look at form, especially good rotation, not crossing the midline, and pressing down on the catch, not sideways. Rotator cuff injuries can take a long time to heal.
Also, 300-500 flat out at the end of each practice is probably excessive, esp if you don't hav a good swim background. In a sprint practice, I might do 200 -250m as flat out sprinting total, interspersed with lots of sub maximal swimming between max efforts.
Swimming Workout of the Day:
Favourite Swim Sets:
2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
My personal schedule is such that I have to take every other weekend as a rest weekend, to spend time with my daughter. I usually take Friday's off ( this week was an anomaly). I feel like scheduling rest time is critical, because it is the rest that allows you to get faster, not the work itself.
Occasionally I do throw in a longer block where I don't take the Friday rest day. After 10 days straight, a rest is definitely welcome and necessary.
If your shoulders are feeling it, be careful and have a good look at form, especially good rotation, not crossing the midline, and pressing down on the catch, not sideways. Rotator cuff injuries can take a long time to heal.
Also, 300-500 flat out at the end of each practice is probably excessive, esp if you don't hav a good swim background. In a sprint practice, I might do 200 -250m as flat out sprinting total, interspersed with lots of sub maximal swimming between max efforts.
Swimming Workout of the Day:
Favourite Swim Sets:
2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Last edited by:
JasoninHalifax: Nov 28, 14 18:24
Re: More swim volume needed? [realAlbertan]
[ In reply to ]
"60x25 on 40, flat out."
That one looks awesome. Going to give it a shot soon.
Any other good puke sets? :D
"Don't you have to go be stupid somewhere else?"..."Not until 4!"
That one looks awesome. Going to give it a shot soon.
Any other good puke sets? :D
"Don't you have to go be stupid somewhere else?"..."Not until 4!"
That's one of those sets that a former World Cup swimmer can handle. Chumps like me, not so much....
Swimming Workout of the Day:
Favourite Swim Sets:
2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Swimming Workout of the Day:
Favourite Swim Sets:
2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly