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Metabolic test results
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I did a metabolic test at the CU Sports Medicine and Performance Center today and it was really interesting! I thought I would share my results so people unfamiliar with what kind of info you can get from these tests can see, and to solicit commentary from those who know all about this stuff. Anything in particular I should note in my results? I've been doing triathon since 2012, focusing mostly on the half distance, but doing my first full this summer. I think these results will help with fueling and pacing for sure. The test did not include a VO2max component in that we did not go up to maximal effort. They feel the number is pretty much useless and no need to shell the athlete to get it, ruining a couple days of training. But there is VO2 up to the point they felt they got all the data they needed.






I tried to make these bigger... but they always seem to come in this size. Hard to read.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Last edited by: RowToTri: Jan 26, 16 14:45
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Re: Metabolic test results [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Ed- Glad you enjoyed your experience!

For what it's worth, I'm not the physiologist who did Ed's test (we have 3, Myself, Kevin Nicol and Inigo San Millan), but will be happy to address any appropriate questions.

Just realized you cannot click to enlarge the above images.

The First is a Lactate profile / HR per workload. The Green box are training zones.
The Second is Carbohydrate and Fat Oxidation in Grams per minute
The Third is Carbs and Fats in Kcal per minute with a Lactate curve overlay and CHO Kcals per hour for each zone
The last is essentially a table of raw data.

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
Last edited by: xtrpickels: Jan 26, 16 19:13
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Re: Metabolic test results [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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What % of threshold heart rate should I pace for an ironman?
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Re: Metabolic test results [eggplantOG] [ In reply to ]
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Everyone is different, on the bike 15-25 BPM below 1 hour threshold. IE for me 180 @ FTP but 155 or so bike at IM, the run is different as it will drift even with smart pacing….of course if you have a PM you could use that as well with varying degrees of effectiveness vs hr ;-)

Maurice
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Re: Metabolic test results [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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Can you explain the drop off in fat burning at the higher pace? Typically, fat oxidation stays relatively constant with increasing intensity. Fat normally decreased only in percentage of calories burned, not in the actual amount burned per unit of duration.

Thanks,



xtrpickels wrote:
Ed- Glad you enjoyed your experience!

For what it's worth, I'm not the physiologist who did Ed's test (we have 3, Myself, Kevin Nicol and Inigo San Millan), but will be happy to address any appropriate questions.

Just realized you cannot click to enlarge the above images.

The First is a Lactate profile / HR per workload. The Green box are training zones.
The Second is Carbohydrate and Fat Oxidation in Grams per minute
The Third is Carbs and Fats in Kcal per minute with a Lactate curve overlay and CHO Kcals per hour for each zone
The last is essentially a table of raw data.

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels
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Re: Metabolic test results [Physiojoe925] [ In reply to ]
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Physiojoe925 wrote:
Can you explain the drop off in fat burning at the higher pace? Typically, fat oxidation stays relatively constant with increasing intensity. Fat normally decreased only in percentage of calories burned, not in the actual amount burned per unit of duration.




ps. if that number looks "fishy," it's b/c it's in terms of energy expenditure as opposed to work done. We operate at ~ 21-25% efficiency, so multiply by that to get the power output
Last edited by: echappist: Jan 27, 16 8:28
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Re: Metabolic test results [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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Kevin Nicol performed my test and he was great. Very encouraging! He answered all my questions afterward but I've been thinking a bit more since. He mentioned that the amount of fat that I burn at the lower effort levels was very good, and that my overall energy output at higher levels was very good (he said both were "pro" level and I responded that unfortunately my results were not!), but I wonder, what is more important: the amount of energy you can output, or the pace you achieve at that output. 1461 kcal/hr at 6:18/mile seems high to me (I'm 5'9"+, 160lbs, 8%bf during this test) but I do not know for sure. More importantly, at my Ironman run pace of 8:00/mile, 1026 kcal/hr seems really high. Does this seem to you like I am not efficiently using the energy I am producing or is this in the normal range? Thanks!

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Metabolic test results [Physiojoe925] [ In reply to ]
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Physiojoe925 wrote:
Can you explain the drop off in fat burning at the higher pace? Typically, fat oxidation stays relatively constant with increasing intensity. Fat normally decreased only in percentage of calories burned, not in the actual amount burned per unit of duration.

Thanks,

They showed me lots of profiles of both untrained and professional athletes. The professionals seemed to have steady or even rising amounts of fat burning up to around anaerobic threshold, then a sharp drop off at higher effort levels. Untrained individuals were kinda all over the map, but usually with lactate rising very rapidly at even low heart rates and fat burning dropping off quickly.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Metabolic test results [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Let's keep this mode specific :)

http://bmjopensem.bmj.com/content/1/1/e000047.full

" the exercise mode of running has been shown to elicit a higher degree of fat oxidation compared to cycling at the same relative intensity.13 ,14"

" the role of FATox is often thought to be negligible above a work intensity of approximately 85% of VO2max.1 ,13 Findings from the present study challenge this assumption. Indeed, in WT runners with VO2max ranging from 65 to 79 mL kg/min, and running repeated 4 min segments at 14.9±0.7 km/h up a 5% gradient, fat oxidation contributed nearly a third of their total EE."








echappist wrote:
Physiojoe925 wrote:
Can you explain the drop off in fat burning at the higher pace?
Typically, fat oxidation stays relatively constant with increasing intensity. Fat normally decreased only in percentage of calories burned, not in the actual amount burned per unit of duration.






ps. if that number looks "fishy," it's b/c it's in terms of energy expenditure as opposed to work done. We operate at ~ 21-25% efficiency, so multiply by that to get the power output


-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels
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Re: Metabolic test results [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
Physiojoe925 wrote:
Can you explain the drop off in fat burning at the higher pace? Typically, fat oxidation stays relatively constant with increasing intensity. Fat normally decreased only in percentage of calories burned, not in the actual amount burned per unit of duration.

Thanks,


They showed me lots of profiles of both untrained and professional athletes. The professionals seemed to have steady or even rising amounts of fat burning up to around anaerobic threshold, then a sharp drop off at higher effort levels. Untrained individuals were kinda all over the map, but usually with lactate rising very rapidly at even low heart rates and fat burning dropping off quickly.


That is my thought and experience, mostly. I think with such muddy water (data) surrounding "fat burning" and it's advantage, if any, our time is better spent fueling in a way that maximizes our ability to perform and recover from a given workout.

It's the application of stimulus (training) and the recovery from it that allows a given intensity to become a lower and lower percentage of vo2 max anyway (and thus higher % of fat burned at that intensity).

My thought is, if someone gives up 1 FTP workout a week for a lower intensity fasted workout, is their performance improved (from supposed better "fat burning") vs. higher FTP from additional min/wk @ FTP?

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels
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Re: Metabolic test results [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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it would also be helpful (mo' data is mo' bettah) to know about your current training. it can put the results into a bit more context.

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: Metabolic test results [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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MarkyV wrote:
it would also be helpful (mo' data is mo' bettah) to know about your current training. it can put the results into a bit more context.

Average time per week now is about 12 hours. Last season was more like 10. Right now, mostly Z2 with maybe one workout per week with shorter harder intervals (like today I have a 90 minute bike ride with 30x30" 90% effort, 30" easy in the middle. Only swimming twice per week, about 2.5 hours total, but always very hard workouts. Last year qualified for 70.3 worlds with a 6th in 35-39 at Hawaii. Hoping to improve 70.3 placing this year and do well in my first full.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Metabolic test results [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Z2 what scale? Both bike and run?

IM BoCo?

BAM for the swim?

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: Metabolic test results [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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Z2 on bike based on FTP test (95% of 30 minute max outdoor effort)
Z2 run has been based on threshold being max hr pace, not AT threshold. So Z2 running for me has been 7:25 to 8:23 pace
IM BoCo is my target!
Swim at Rally Sport Masters.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Metabolic test results [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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a couple suggestions....

a long easy day in the pool could be helpful. full gas masters "only" isnt really the best. An easy solo day of 3-4 500s with a couple pull and the effort level quite low can be very beneficial. (can't speak to pool motivations of yours tho!)

I'd slow that run down quite a bit. If you are looking to be a 3:30 mary OTB fella than no real reason to run faster than 8:30 for your out the door pace. <--this pays MASSIVE dividends.

GOOD LUCK!

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: Metabolic test results [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks!

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Metabolic test results [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
what is more important: the amount of energy you can output, or the pace you achieve at that output. 1461 kcal/hr at 6:18/mile seems high to me (I'm 5'9"+, 160lbs, 8%bf during this test) but I do not know for sure. More importantly, at my Ironman run pace of 8:00/mile, 1026 kcal/hr seems really high. Does this seem to you like I am not efficiently using the energy I am producing or is this in the normal range?

Pace, obviously. And yes, your running economy (i.e., VO2 at a given pace) is rather poor. That could be due to a number of factors, but I would bet that your build and chosen sport (tri, not running) have a lot to do with it.
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Re: Metabolic test results [Physiojoe925] [ In reply to ]
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Physiojoe925 wrote:
Can you explain the drop off in fat burning at the higher pace? Typically, fat oxidation stays relatively constant with increasing intensity. Fat normally decreased only in percentage of calories burned, not in the actual amount burned per unit of duration.

With increasing exercise intensity, there will obviously be some point at which RER approaches or exceeds 1.0, at which point respiratory gas exchange no longer provides a valid estimate of overall substrate oxidation. That point is higher than most people think, but nonetheless it should be clear that fat oxidation will decline not only in relative, but also absolute, terms at the exercise intensity approaches maximal.
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Re: Metabolic test results [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
what is more important: the amount of energy you can output, or the pace you achieve at that output. 1461 kcal/hr at 6:18/mile seems high to me (I'm 5'9"+, 160lbs, 8%bf during this test) but I do not know for sure. More importantly, at my Ironman run pace of 8:00/mile, 1026 kcal/hr seems really high. Does this seem to you like I am not efficiently using the energy I am producing or is this in the normal range? Thanks!


You are correct that the energy expenditure / oxygen consumption is high... about 300kcal an hour higher than we'd expect based on normative data.
The pace is most important as that is what determines performance.

My speech on VO2max is basically as follows:
VO2max data alone is not overly useful. We need to understand economy to put that into perspective. When we have elite level performance we know we have the combination of high VO2max AND high economy (How many bucks plus the bang for your buck). When we have poor performance we have low VO2max and Low economy. Everyone in the middle, however, can have combinations of both. Someone with a high VO2max and moderate economy can race against someone with moderate VO2max and high economy. You're in the former, it appears. VO2 is good. Economy is not. Therefore you're a good triathlete, but not world-class. Such is life.

This situation is where plyometrics and strength training may help improve performance through an improvement in economy via increases in musculotendinous stiffness. Lots of research out there (despite most insisting strength training is not beneficial...)

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=strength+training+economy&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C6&as_sdtp=

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
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Re: Metabolic test results [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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xtrpickels wrote:
This is a situation where plyometics and strength training may help improve performance through an improvement in economy via increases in musculotendinous stiffness.

Or just running more.

(I'm in the midst of an experiment using my Stryd powermeter to see whether my running effectiveness - that is, the ratio of my pace to my power - spontaneously improves now that I've taken up running again. I know from previous experience - albeit 25+ y ago now! - that my running economy does, going from absymal to just so-so over the course of months.)
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Re: Metabolic test results [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks! I will try and read up on this. I wonder if my genetics contributes to poor economy somewhat - I have pretty large leg muscles. Compared to distance runners my legs and calves are huge even though I've been doing nothing but endurance training for several years and no strength training at all. It takes a lot of energy to swing those suckers back and forth.

Edit to add photo of test:


-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
Last edited by: RowToTri: Jan 27, 16 10:20
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Re: Metabolic test results [Physiojoe925] [ In reply to ]
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Correct, to a point.

We know that high intensity exercise is 100% carbohydrate driven, so there must be a shift as intensity increases.
In highly trained aerobic individuals, the fat oxidation does tend to stay fairly strong through Threshold then there is a sharp decline. This is observed in Ed's results above. (Threshold is approximately the 4th stage, so despite it being difficult to see the numbers you can see the change in the both graphs).

What's important to note, however, is the upward sloping nature of the lactate curve. The moderate increases in lactate in early stages correspond to the slow drift away from Fat oxidation. If we observed flatter baseline lactates, then we'd also tend to see fat oxidation holding stronger for longer, despite both parameters being from different sources (blood vs. expired gas).

They're tied together because they're both related to aerobic metabolism. The drift that we see is, in my opinion, related to a smaller % of slow-twitch fibers. I think the ones he has are working quite well, but that he may have a higher % of type II fibers. This is also evidenced by the higher than normal oxygen consumption / decrease in economy. In all honesty, I'm a fairly similar athlete. I'd love to see power profiling from Ed to see if real-world abilities confirm this or not. Mine certainly do.

Underlying all of this superficial data is the fact that fiber type recruitment and metabolism is what is changing in the back ground. For Ed, we need to bolster his ability to handle work aerobically and we'll see subsequent changes in resulting parameters.


Physiojoe925 wrote:
Can you explain the drop off in fat burning at the higher pace? Typically, fat oxidation stays relatively constant with increasing intensity. Fat normally decreased only in percentage of calories burned, not in the actual amount burned per unit of duration.

Thanks,

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
Last edited by: xtrpickels: Jan 27, 16 10:23
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Re: Metabolic test results [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
Thanks! I will try and read up on this. I wonder if my genetics contributes to poor economy somewhat - I have pretty large leg muscles. Compared to distance runners my legs and calves are huge even though I've been doing nothing but endurance training for several years and no strength training at all. It takes a lot of energy to swing those suckers back and forth.


Exactly, see the response I posted immediately above.

Looking at economy numbers, you were about 245ml/kg/km (mililiters of oxygen per kilogram of body weight per kilometer of running) Elite spanish have been tested at about 211, elite Eritrian's at about 192.

More info on Economy:
http://sportsscientists.com/2007/12/running-economy-part-i/

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
Last edited by: xtrpickels: Jan 27, 16 10:21
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Re: Metabolic test results [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
xtrpickels wrote:
This is a situation where plyometics and strength training may help improve performance through an improvement in economy via increases in musculotendinous stiffness.


Or just running more.

(I'm in the midst of an experiment using my Stryd powermeter to see whether my running effectiveness - that is, the ratio of my pace to my power - spontaneously improves now that I've taken up running again. I know from previous experience - albeit 25+ y ago now! - that my running economy does, going from absymal to just so-so over the course of months.)

Based on his training status I wonder if that low hanging fruit has already been picked.

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
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Re: Metabolic test results [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
Physiojoe925 wrote:
Can you explain the drop off in fat burning at the higher pace? Typically, fat oxidation stays relatively constant with increasing intensity. Fat normally decreased only in percentage of calories burned, not in the actual amount burned per unit of duration.


With increasing exercise intensity, there will obviously be some point at which RER approaches or exceeds 1.0, at which point respiratory gas exchange no longer provides a valid estimate of overall substrate oxidation. That point is higher than most people think, but nonetheless it should be clear that fat oxidation will decline not only in relative, but also absolute, terms at the exercise intensity approaches maximal.

Thanks for this.

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels
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