Great progress....

Why is it that some adult onset swimmers improve and others don't even with coaching?

2012 KS 'time behind' looks off.

Great progress....

Why is it that some adult onset swimmers improve and others don't even with coaching?

2012 KS 'time behind' looks off.

But I think the clear point is that there are guys - like PJ or Potts, and Dave Scott and Wolfgang Diettrich before them - who can do pretty much whatever they want and swim fast. And then there is 99.99% of the rest of the field (including elites) for whom swimming is a constant struggle.

Ding, ding, ding.
I'd actually say that, if you are an adult-onset swimmer, you can NEVER make things permanent. You can never make things "stick." You need to constantly be vigilant against reversion.
I think the best example of this was Macca, who is hardly what I'd call an "adult-onset" swimmer. But, as a triathlete, he didn't grow up swimming the same way that a pure swimmer does. And when he got lax on his swim, he dropped in Kona - out in second pack in 55 in 2009.
Andreas Raelert is another; last year, he came out of the water with me (I was shocked); year before, he was second pack as well.
Crowie seems to have slipped a bit also looking at ITU LD WC.
But none of those three was a dominant swimmer. They all had to work to get there.
Contrast with Pete Jacobs, who - by his own admission - swims about 6-8km/week.
Sutton made an observation about this at some point - talking about the "real" front pack, which Macca/Crowie never were part of and PJ never had been out of. His theory was that Kona was going to be more dominated by that swim. I'm not so sure, and certainly if Sebastian wins, that will demonstrate that it's false.
But I think the clear point is that there are guys - like PJ or Potts, and Dave Scott and Wolfgang Diettrich before them - who can do pretty much whatever they want and swim fast. And then there is 99.99% of the rest of the field (including elites) for whom swimming is a constant struggle.
I think that's why a lot of folks back off. Because it's pretty annoying that you can never really put swimming on the back burner.

I'm interested as devil's advocate to see whether you think that your proprioceptive ability, if transferred magically to a longstanding 2:00/100 swimmer, would allow them to swim remotely as fast as you (well under 1:25/100 pace) given no transfer of additional swim technique.

And vice-versa, I'm interested to hear if you transferred your swim power/endurance to that same swimmer but left them with their same stroke, what their speed improvement (or decrease) would be.

As an adult onset swimmer (started age 25) who has achieve some triathlon swim success, I attribute my swimming ability to my proprioceptive ability:

What can an adult onset swimmer with bad preconception do? Hard when you think you are doing xxx but in reality you are not.

Ding, ding, ding.

I'd actually say that, if you are an adult-onset swimmer, you can NEVER make things permanent. You can never make things "stick." You need to constantly be vigilant against reversion.

I think the best example of this was Macca, who is hardly what I'd call an "adult-onset" swimmer. But, as a triathlete, he didn't grow up swimming the same way that a pure swimmer does. And when he got lax on his swim, he dropped in Kona - out in second pack in 55 in 2009.

Andreas Raelert is another; last year, he came out of the water with me (I was shocked); year before, he was second pack as well.

Crowie seems to have slipped a bit also looking at ITU LD WC.

But none of those three was a dominant swimmer. They all had to work to get there.

Contrast with Pete Jacobs, who - by his own admission - swims about 6-8km/week.

Sutton made an observation about this at some point - talking about the "real" front pack, which Macca/Crowie never were part of and PJ never had been out of. His theory was that Kona was going to be more dominated by that swim. I'm not so sure, and certainly if Sebastian wins, that will demonstrate that it's false.

But I think the clear point is that there are guys - like PJ or Potts, and Dave Scott and Wolfgang Diettrich before them - who can do pretty much whatever they want and swim fast. And then there is 99.99% of the rest of the field (including elites) for whom swimming is a constant struggle.

I think that's why a lot of folks back off. Because it's pretty annoying that you can never really put swimming on the back burner.

Great progress....

Why is it that some adult onset swimmers improve and others don't even with coaching?

2012 KS 'time behind' looks off.

If I had to guess and that's all I can do from what I see in my own sphere. It's a blend of ego and or reluctance to do things that might not *seem* right. They *think* they know and won't let go of their ideas in deference to a coach. Or they think 'I will lose too much fitness if I spend time doing this' or 'that looks like a remedial exercise I'm not doing that stupid stuff I'm way beyond that'. The same people who whined about the same things 5 years ago at the pool are still swimming the same pace......doing that same thing.

That was LARGE for me. Small HD waterproof cam and instant feedback. That really only took a handfull of sessions to see how bad I was at knowing where my limbs are in space. Once I was able to get my bearings a bit the curve went upwards often and quickly.

More than mileage, I think you need to more accurately count the number of yards per week spent at or above threshold pace. That's where your improvement come from. I saw improvements once my quality yards were above 10k/week. So one thing I'll try next year is further minimizing "junk" yards and really focus on quality sets. The challenge is that mentally, I find it a lot harder to motivate myself for 20x100 or 30x100 on short rest, compared to a ladder or pyramid set. Both have value, bout you really need to push your limits to improve.

I think it's far simpler than that. It's that more AGers are far more willing to spend money on a coach as opposed to swimming the 18-30k per week it takes for substantive improvement. I know there are some talented folks on this forum and elsewhere that learned to swim shockingly fast on <10k/wk, but they are the outliers. If you're a no-talent guy like me, it takes at least 15k just to slightly improve and 20k+ per week to reasonably improve.

Proprioception etc helps, but it does NOT explain the massive power differential between a 1:25/100 vs a 2:00/100 swimmer. That's all about hard work in the pool to build that engine while simultaneously improving technique.