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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 738 [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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Re tues for insulin, I've been told by drug free sport nz that a tue can be applied for retrospectively if you're diabetic and only competing as an age grouper. I asked them this ahead of masters games in nz this year
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 738 [adablduya1] [ In reply to ]
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What's so hard about saying "I used to enter triathlons but I stopped as I take a banned substance to improve my health, so now I just enjoy my recreational outdoor activities without the added thrill of competition?"

Eliot
blog thing - strava thing
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 738 [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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fulla wrote:
but does an increase in lean body mass = an increase in performance for diabetics? generally as a type 1 diabetic, if you inject more insulin, it means you are eating more. if you don't eat more, or treat the hypo, you die. so it stands to reason that a type 1 diabetic will gain weight from injecting more insulin. whether that has performance enhancing benefits for a diabetic remains to be seen.

exactly - also note that with increased lean body mass, also comes at the cost of lipogenesis and reduce lipolysis. In other words, sure you will add some muscle, but i lovely addition of body fat too.
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 738 [jkatsoudas] [ In reply to ]
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What I am hearing there is that a non-diabetic person could dope with insulin. What I did not see among random cut-and-paste snippets of citations is the research that Type 1 diabetic people gain an athletic advantage from their insulin therapy.
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 738 [jkatsoudas] [ In reply to ]
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From your one cite about diabetics:

“Insulin is used to control blood glucose but may have an adverse effect on the amount and distribution of fat mass and other cardiovascular risk factors. To test this hypothesis the effect of insulin therapy on blood glucose, body composition, and lipid levels was measured during 6 months in 9 patients with newly diagnosed insulin-dependent (Type 1) diabetes mellitus (IDDM) and 15 patients with non-insulin dependent (Type 2) diabetes (NIDDM) and secondary failure of therapy with oral hypoglycaemic agents“

Hardly a test about athletic performance.
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 738 [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]
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You forgot the time lost for manual glucose checks in transition, or the choice between stoppping on the course with medical to check or verify a glucose number or risk falling into a coma or even death.
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 738 [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Because insulin is banned in an out of competition, I asked USAT about a TUE and they had no clue at all. Said to ask USADA. So I asked them. USADA said to ask my governing body, USAT. I went back and forth with calls to people at both organizations who were supposed to know. USAT really didn’t seem to know and USADA was of the opinion to just fill out a TUE and you’d be covered.
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 738 [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]
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I’m pretty sure being heavier is not making me faster even if some of that weight is muscle.

Now if I wanted to put myself into a state of diabetic ketoacidosis I’m sure I could lose a lot of weight, but unfortunately also my life, and all that does is eat away muscle, mostly.

Insulin for diabetics is not doping.

For non-diabetic I’m sure it could help with bodybuilders as an anabolic hormone but it would also be a good way to kill yourself if you dose wrong. Still, I don’t see having a lot of muscle mass being great for endurance sports.
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 738 [seeyouincourt] [ In reply to ]
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Hello seeyouincourt and All,

One of our sons is an attorney ..... are you looking for a barrister?

Sorry you got the run a round on your TUE .... anyway looks like you know how to get covered now.

You are probably aware of this information but I'll post it for general curiosity.

Many years ago we had an employee whose brother as a teenager with Type 1 diabetes did not stick to his diet and would occasionally rebel and eat a lot of candy .... resulting in a hospital admission .... and a lot of worry about his life.

We sold that business ..... and many years later ran into the employee and asked how her brother was doing. He had a pancreas transplant and no longer needed insulin and was in good health.

"The National Kidney Foundation estimates that a pancreas transplant will cost$125,800, including the cost of the evaluation, procedures to obtain the donated organ, hospital charges, physician fees, follow-up care and immunosuppressants." Wiki

We had a customer who had an insulin pump and had some near death events ..... sometimes waking up in a partial coma (her husband saved her) and she took it all in stride (life with diabetes is not easy to say the least) . When we would have lunch together she usually skipped desert (and we did too) but occasionally she would say, "lets have a piece of cake." and she would press the button on the insulin pump for about 3 'beeps'.

I hope you are not worrying about what people are thinking about your insulin use. The informed understand and disregard the others.

seeyouincourt wrote:
Because insulin is banned in an out of competition, I asked USAT about a TUE and they had no clue at all. Said to ask USADA. So I asked them. USADA said to ask my governing body, USAT. I went back and forth with calls to people at both organizations who were supposed to know. USAT really didn’t seem to know and USADA was of the opinion to just fill out a TUE and you’d be covered.


Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
Last edited by: nealhe: Oct 12, 17 15:05
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 762 [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I skipped a bunch, but this is a good one. Steven Strickler. Busted for the "good stuff" at the Dana Point Grand Prix.

Over the past decade has been an elite SoCal masters crit racer in the 45+/55+ range, influencing most races he was in, almost always in the top 5. Essentially started his own, well-sponsored team 2 years ago. Prior to that raced for other elite masters teams.

Though the sanction doesn't mention it, I suspect his test at Dana Point wasn't all that random. He came in 10th, and usually they test the podium places. So either USADA is getting crafty (masters testing at Dana Point has been as predictable as death and taxes) or someone tipped them off that maybe they should test Steven. Either way - good job, USADA.
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 762 [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Steven Strickler, SS, double letters

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 738 [Desert Tortoise] [ In reply to ]
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Desert Tortoise wrote:
M----n wrote:
Desert Tortoise wrote:
Ralph20 wrote:
OR...
There has been a documented decrease in sperm levels (over 50% in the last 30 years) and a documented decrease in testosterone levels in men over the last 20 years. So chemicals in our environment are interacting with our body in unknown ways. There is also ZERO proof that supplementing testosterone back to age appropriate levels leads to any increase in performance. So the evidence is entirely against your claim that "these guys are doping". In fact, they may be looking to lead a normal life prior to pollution/chemicals wrecking our endocrine system.


Zero proof?

So now I know. I guess testosterone is just a benign hormone. Thanks for making things clear, so clear.

And since it's benign, no one needs it.


You don't NEED it. You elect to take it because you don't like the natural symptoms of aging or effects of training.


Amen.

And once you elect to take these supplements, you should bow out of competition and stick to posting pictures of your buff 54-year self all over Facebook.

Exactly. The "natural symptoms of aging" are precisely why we have age groups. Doping to mitigate those effects is the essence of cheating.

Many of us would like to compete on a fair basis without having to take drugs, many of which are shown to have major side effects.
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 738 [helo guy] [ In reply to ]
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"many of which are shown to have major side effects". I'm not arguing your position, but this is the type of gross over generalization that seems to accompany any talk of medications on this forum. Some medications have varying side effects and some don't. We can certainly do better by speaking in more scientific terms than this. Especially when a great deal of science and research exists on these topics.

Reference your topic about taking medications to mitigate the effects of aging. Again, a perfectly reasonable statement. But what makes you think that we are aging normally? There is an abundance of research showing the impacts that environmental chemicals are having on our bodies. The chemicals, known as endocrine disruptors, have metabolic impacts including low testosterone, obesity, and diabetes. The evidence is overwhelming that endocrine and metabolic disorders are increasing in prevalence. And not just by a little. I think the conversation around this is a little more nuanced than what some of the comments here would convey.
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 738 [Ralph20] [ In reply to ]
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" I think the conversation around this is a little more nuanced than what some of the comments here would convey. "

Not really. Nobody here is saying you cannot take various medications if you think they will help you. That is between you and your doctor.

What they are saying is that you cannot do that AND RACE.

Why? Well, it is against the rules. It is against the rules because those drugs make you faster, faster than you would otherwise be. If in fact the cause is environmental, then it is an argument against allowing drugs. Everyone has do deal with the environment. Some choose to deal with the various issues related to age as best they can within the rules of the sport. Others choose to cheat.

If everyone using various doping therapies goes up to the race officials and says "Due to the environment I am taking medications X, Y, and Z. " I would have no problem with that.

But that is not what happens is it? In fact, everyone who signs up for USAT races also agrees to abide by the rules when they sign up.

But some people chose to agree to those rules and then do something else.

If you don't like the rules of a sport get them changed, or do something else. This argument is not about what medications people can take, it is about cheating.
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 738 [helo guy] [ In reply to ]
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"What they are saying is that you cannot do that AND RACE. "

They are saying much more than that, lol. My point is only that can have a conversation about medications and disease alongside this issue of doping. And having that conversation doesn't mean one intends to bypass the rules.

I don't think you intended to shut the conversation down with your comment but this is the tactic used by some other rather short-sighted people on this forum. As soon as a conversation starts about doping it resorts to "it's against the rules" and anything other than is an attempt to cheat.

Edited to add- I'm not saying anyone use the excuse of the environment to dope. I hope that isn't what you walked away from my post with. My intention is to show that use of certain medications is, particularly those for endocrine disorders, is not just a fad that people are partaking in. There is a legitimate epidemic of endocrine diseases that is only starting to come to light.
Last edited by: Ralph20: Nov 11, 18 11:41
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 738 [dogmile] [ In reply to ]
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dogmile wrote:
The argument of doping T up to normal levels seems to be a constant in these threads... One of the main flaws with that argument is that you can suppress T levels just by training hard. So your argument is that everyone should be allowed to dope up to some magic number. OK, train hard enough and drop your levels below that number, take some T to get back, rinse and repeat. You effectively make T supplementation a requirement of competition. For endurance athletes the main advantage of taking T is the ability to do more work. Wouldn't it be nice to totally smash a workout and be able to back it up the next day instead of three days later? You bet, compound that over months and years.

..

This actually happened to me when I started seeing a new doctor a few years ago. I was training really hard at the time and, for a unrelated medical reason, my doctor checked my testosterone levels and freaked. Wanted to get me on a supplemental dose, I was only 25 at the time, and I had to explain why my levels were low and that I would not, under any circumstances short of life threatening ones, supplement.
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 762 [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
I skipped a bunch, but this is a good one. Steven Strickler. Busted for the "good stuff" at the Dana Point Grand Prix.

Over the past decade has been an elite SoCal masters crit racer in the 45+/55+ range, influencing most races he was in, almost always in the top 5. Essentially started his own, well-sponsored team 2 years ago. Prior to that raced for other elite masters teams.

Though the sanction doesn't mention it, I suspect his test at Dana Point wasn't all that random. He came in 10th, and usually they test the podium places. So either USADA is getting crafty (masters testing at Dana Point has been as predictable as death and taxes) or someone tipped them off that maybe they should test Steven. Either way - good job, USADA.

Actually, he won the 55+ race that day. I looked it up at USAC after it was announced, but before they updated his results. (List as 0th place now.) Did he maybe get 10th in the 45+ race also?

FYI, Rich Meeker who got popped at master's nationals in Bend in 2012 was 3rd in the 55+ race that day.

Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 762 [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
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nslckevin wrote:


Actually, he won the 55+ race that day. I looked it up at USAC after it was announced, but before they updated his results. (List as 0th place now.) Did he maybe get 10th in the 45+ race also?

FYI, Rich Meeker who got popped at master's nationals in Bend in 2012 was 3rd in the 55+ race that day.


Ah, thanks for the correction. I thought I'd checked it earlier (his name was in rumors for months prior), but must have missed it.

There's a rumor that there's a second masters dude at Dana who refused to be tested and is still in the USADA pipeline.

Pretty bold to know with complete certainty you'll be tested, and still go for the podium anyway. And it's not about being "stupid." Strickler is, by all appearances, a very successful, smart guy. And a "nice guy" because there's very little social shaming going on here in SoCal as compared to Kayle, who no one liked.

Yeah, and bummed about Meeker. Not so much his being back, but how warmly welcomed he seemed.
Last edited by: trail: Nov 11, 18 18:33
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 762 [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
nslckevin wrote:


Actually, he won the 55+ race that day. I looked it up at USAC after it was announced, but before they updated his results. (List as 0th place now.) Did he maybe get 10th in the 45+ race also?

FYI, Rich Meeker who got popped at master's nationals in Bend in 2012 was 3rd in the 55+ race that day.


Ah, thanks for the correction. I thought I'd checked it earlier (his name was in rumors for months prior), but must have missed it.

There's a rumor that there's a second masters dude at Dana who refused to be tested and is still in the USADA pipeline.

Pretty bold to know with complete certainty you'll be tested, and still go for the podium anyway. And it's not about being "stupid." Strickler is, by all appearances, a very successful, smart guy. And a "nice guy" because there's very little social shaming going on here in SoCal as compared to Kayle, who no one liked.

Yeah, and bummed about Meeker. Not so much his being back, but how warmly welcomed he seemed.

BTW, that is the third doper that the Dana Point GP has caught. Kayo Legrande in 2017, Logan Loader in 2014 and Now Strickler in 2018. Kudos to the promoter Roger Worthington for getting USADA to show up every year. That brings up another point, you can't really make a case for a rider being surprised about getting tested if they win at Dana Point.

Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 762 [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
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http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/masters-cyclist-doping-united-states/


Came up on my feed today. 3 riders caught in same race.
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 738 [Ralph20] [ In reply to ]
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Ralph20 wrote:
"many of which are shown to have major side effects". I'm not arguing your position, but this is the type of gross over generalization that seems to accompany any talk of medications on this forum. Some medications have varying side effects and some don't. We can certainly do better by speaking in more scientific terms than this. Especially when a great deal of science and research exists on these topics.


Reference your topic about taking medications to mitigate the effects of aging. Again, a perfectly reasonable statement. But what makes you think that we are aging normally? There is an abundance of research showing the impacts that environmental chemicals are having on our bodies. The chemicals, known as endocrine disruptors, have metabolic impacts including low testosterone, obesity, and diabetes. The evidence is overwhelming that endocrine and metabolic disorders are increasing in prevalence. And not just by a little. I think the conversation around this is a little more nuanced than what some of the comments here would convey.


I think you are overstating the case of endocrine disruptors.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...articles/PMC2078473/

"To date, conflicting results of epidemiological studies have failed to confirm the hypothesis that exposure to environmental chemicals with endocrine disrupting properties is associated with human reproductive health problems."

There are also other things that can affect sperm count, like being overweight or obese. And that has most definitely risen in the West, and can just as easily explain the decline in sperm counts as chemicals.

___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 738 [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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nealhe wrote:
Hello seeyouincourt and All,

One of our sons is an attorney ..... are you looking for a barrister?

Sorry you got the run a round on your TUE .... anyway looks like you know how to get covered now.

You are probably aware of this information but I'll post it for general curiosity.

Many years ago we had an employee whose brother as a teenager with Type 1 diabetes did not stick to his diet and would occasionally rebel and eat a lot of candy .... resulting in a hospital admission .... and a lot of worry about his life.

We sold that business ..... and many years later ran into the employee and asked how her brother was doing. He had a pancreas transplant and no longer needed insulin and was in good health.

"The National Kidney Foundation estimates that a pancreas transplant will cost$125,800, including the cost of the evaluation, procedures to obtain the donated organ, hospital charges, physician fees, follow-up care and immunosuppressants." Wiki

We had a customer who had an insulin pump and had some near death events ..... sometimes waking up in a partial coma (her husband saved her) and she took it all in stride (life with diabetes is not easy to say the least) . When we would have lunch together she usually skipped desert (and we did too) but occasionally she would say, "lets have a piece of cake." and she would press the button on the insulin pump for about 3 'beeps'.

I hope you are not worrying about what people are thinking about your insulin use. The informed understand and disregard the others.

seeyouincourt wrote:
Because insulin is banned in an out of competition, I asked USAT about a TUE and they had no clue at all. Said to ask USADA. So I asked them. USADA said to ask my governing body, USAT. I went back and forth with calls to people at both organizations who were supposed to know. USAT really didn’t seem to know and USADA was of the opinion to just fill out a TUE and you’d be covered.

Yes while you will not need insulin after a pancreas transplant you have to take a host of other drugs including anti-rejection drugs for the rest of your life. Also with most pancreas transplants kidney transplants at the same time is the norm.

I'm surprised that the USAT nor USADA are clueless about insulin. Diabetes is only the number 7 killer in the USA and there was a pro-cycling team called Type 1 because they all had diabetes. You got the runaround.
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 762 [carlosflanders] [ In reply to ]
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“Gonzalez....finished 11th, narrowly being denied the $50 on offer for 10th prize”

———————-

Hilarious!

@rhyspencer
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 738 [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting...well I've seen folks with insulin pumps race in triathlons...are we calling that doping around here? A lot of holier than thou folks running around.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Masters Doping, Episode 762 [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
I skipped a bunch, but this is a good one. Steven Strickler. Busted for the "good stuff" at the Dana Point Grand Prix. .....


All part of a long, proud tradition of cheating in Southern California cycling.

I remember the SCNCA's "State Championship" TT back in 2007 or 2008, where 3 guys in the 45s were DQed for drafting (that was a pretty good percentage of the field). This wasn't "hang-on-for-10-meters-after-you're-passed" drafting, either. I pulled a guy for over a mile. I saw another guy pulling two others to the last corner, like a mini-peloton. Wish I could find the results because I think SS might have been one of them.

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
Last edited by: jens: Nov 13, 18 8:42
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