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Marathon Pace Runs
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I'm following the Hal Higdon (A1) marathon plan, to an extent. I'm adding a few more miles to some of the runs, though, as I feel the mileage for his plans are kind of low overall. I think this plan tops out at 55 miles in a weeks before taper and plan to bump it up closer to 70. That being said, I used the same plan and followed it pretty closely a few years ago, and had good success, BQ'ing my first marathon. Overall, I think it's a good plan.

One of the workouts in the plan is a marathon pace (mp) run, which is usually the day before the long run. What if you consistently run the mp run faster than the pace you intend to run at your marathon? The longest mp run is about 10 miles, so it's not really all that far. Will running an mp run faster than the intended speed help with fitness? I am doing a disservice to myself by not following the mp run to a tee?

FWIW, I'm a 39 yo male with good running fitness and some durability. I ran a 2:54 in 2012 and am targeting a 2:45 (or faster) in March. Marathon pace is ~6:20 min/mi, but I have been running mp closer to 6.
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Re: Marathon Pace Runs [d00d] [ In reply to ]
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Can you do all the other quality runs in the plan at their equivalent to the 6min/mile MP runs?
If so...re-evaluate your race goal and shoot for a sub 2:40.
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Re: Marathon Pace Runs [dfroelich] [ In reply to ]
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No. I think 6:20 pace sounds more likely based on the limited information you have given

The problem with this Hal Higdon (Advanced 1 plan) is that it tells you to run 10 miles at your marathon pace the day before your long run.
But how do you know what that is?
I do not think tempo runs or intervals can really tell you.

A person who can hold 6:20 pace for a marathon, should also be able to hold 6:00 pace for 10 miles the day before their long run.
A person who can hold 6:00 pace for a marathon, of course, can also "hold" 6:00 pace for 10 miles the day before their long run.

The difference is this:
The 2:37 marathoner would run 10 Miles holding 6:00 pace- and would finish feeling mostly fresh and would wonder "how fast might I have gone if I had run hard?"
The 2:45 marathoner would run 10 miles holding 6:00 pace- and would finish out of breath and sore, and wonders "maybe I could hold that pace for 26.2 miles?"


This is a good way to predict marathon pace. (It is also a very difficult workout and might therefore be a bad idea).
Workout:
Run 12 miles at long run pace. Then run 8 miles hard.
The pace that you can hold for the 8 miles is the pace that you can hold for a marathon.


I am currently training for a marathon and am doing similar mileage to you.
I can hold 6:10 pace for a 3 x 3 mile tempo run. I can also hold 6:25 for 6 miles at the end of a long run.
I think I am close to being able to hold 6:30 pace for a marathon.
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Re: Marathon Pace Runs [d00d] [ In reply to ]
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I've done higdon's a1 a few times with limited results. I've found those back to back days are an injury risk for me. A big part of that is I'd do exactly what your describing, adding pace to the ten because I could. I'd be tired at the end and then start the long run tired the next day. In response to your question; I would say if the 10 at 6 is easy; maybe you should adjust your goal. If the ten is really hurting; maybe you should slow down. Also, and this is just my experience, doing the 2-1's has been a much better tool for me. I think higdon talks about that on his page, but it's running the first two thirds of the long run slow, and the last third hard. This gives you something to look forward to while you're casually running the ten the day before, you can save your heroics for the 20. I've found the very long 2-1's to be the most important training runs I do. If I can do the last 10k 30-45 seconds faster than marathon pace I've got lots of confidence when I hit mile twenty on race day. Good luck. I'm also hoping to do around 2:45 this spring.
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Re: Marathon Pace Runs [d00d] [ In reply to ]
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The thing I do not like about the MP run prior to a long run is, as dirtymangos said, it is quite easy to do.

If your MP run is only 6mi (get that it is early in the plan at the moment) but only gets to 10mi then I feel it should be a part of the long run. Something like 5 easy, 10MP, 5 easy (that would be later when you get to 20mi lng runs but you get the idea).
If you are going to stick with just a stand alone 6-10mi MP run on the day prior to a long run then I feel your time would be better spent going a little quicker than MP. I would make it more a threshold paced tempo which you are doing at the moment (5:55 - 6:00 pace).

As for Dirty's marathon predictor. I like that but do not see a great need for it until about 4wks out. Many variations of the workout but I like 10 starting easy and building to moderate and then basically race 10. The average pace you can hold for the raced 10mi can be a solid predictor of what you can race the marathon at. That is a very hard workout and needs to be done with ample time to recover prior to your race.
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Re: Marathon Pace Runs [d00d] [ In reply to ]
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Agree with Aboveground, but my experience with higher mileage (>70mpw) is that finishing long runs negative splitting with progression to sub MP for last 1/4 works best for me. Some runs it may get to sub 25 seconds for 3-4 miles, but never 45 seconds under for a sub 2:50 effort. My PR marathons have included zero MP paced runs. If you want to feel the mechanics and exertion then give it a go, but for me it is somewhat in "no man's land" in terms of training value (pace/recovery). Long tempo 2 days before long run with a recovery trott the day in between has been the most successful route for me to keep quality training specific to marathon. 3 quality runs a week; repeats, tempo, and the progressive long run with the rest at recovery pace or slightly faster to get to the quality day fresh as possible. The long tempo run is often the missing ingredient for runners who have the plumbing, but fade in the second half of a marathon.
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Re: Marathon Pace Runs [ktm520] [ In reply to ]
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After reading your post, I agree that 45 seconds above MP when you're going for a 2:50 is too fast. Thanks for the correction. I just threw that number out because it's what I've done when running over 3 hours. At my current goal of 2:45, I think my last six will hopefully be just under six minute miles, or about 20 seconds faster per mile.
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Re: Marathon Pace Runs [d00d] [ In reply to ]
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This sounds pretty dangerous to me. You might consider doing a "benchmark" test to see where your fitness really is. I think a 10 mile all out TT is a good place (or half marathon run at 90-95%) , which you could then put into a running calculator (daniels), to get a better ballpark for what marathon time is reasonable for race day. The nice thing about a 10 miler or 1/2 marathon is that they are basically long tempo runs and it will is a perfect marathon workout to begin with. Then it is important to stick to the plan and not overachieve in the workouts - just stick to the script, else you run a good chance or arriving on race day feeling great and having killed some workouts only to $hit the bed and go home disappointed. The list of people who have had "their best buildup ever" and imploded on race day is long and has many top names on it. It sounds strange but for the marathon, you want to do a little work as possible to prepare for meeting your goal on race day. Avoid digging too deep of a fatigue hole to crawl out of, because it is just too hard to do that while running real mileage. Then you carry that fitness over to the next cycle (because you did not get hurt or burned out/overcooked), get a bit faster, rise repeat.
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Re: Marathon Pace Runs [d00d] [ In reply to ]
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d00d wrote:


One of the workouts in the plan is a marathon pace (mp) run, which is usually the day before the long run. What if you consistently run the mp run faster than the pace you intend to run at your marathon? The longest mp run is about 10 miles, so it's not really all that far. Will running an mp run faster than the intended speed help with fitness? I am doing a disservice to myself by not following the mp run to a tee?


Don't run faster. The specificity of running the pace at which you intend to race is important. If it feels easy for you to run that MP, try running more miles at MP instead. Make the 10 mile MP be 12. Or perhaps do workouts where you do multiple long blocks at MP (4 or 5 mile blocks) with short recovery between. You don't have to do it all in one block.

An inability to run your goal pace is not the tough part of the marathon. An inability to hold that pace the whole way is. You don't need faster. You need more.
Last edited by: JoeO: Dec 22, 14 9:38
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Re: Marathon Pace Runs [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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"The specificity of running the pace at which you intend to race is important. If it feels easy for you to run that MP, try running more miles at MP instead."

I agree.

I'm just a former 3+ hour guy with just a few solid marathons ages 33 to 42 so take these ideas for what its worth:

It seems to me that mid week MP runs are better than MP Saturday, Long run Sunday, even at the expense of midweek "speed work"
(Like mile repeats @ 10K+ pace for example. I don't think that stuff needs to happen every week)

MP runs are especially important 10 to 2+ weeks before the race. If you can only squeeze in 6-8 miles, I can see running 10-15sec. faster than MP; If its 10-12 miles, I would NOT run faster than goal M Pace, even a titch slower.
Fitting M Pace into long runs is also worth trying, such as 2x2 MP at miles 11&12 - ez mile - 14&15 during an 18-miler. Most of the rest of miles run about 10% slower than MP.
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Re: Marathon Pace Runs [AboveGround] [ In reply to ]
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That is about what I have found for a 2:45-2:50 my closing miles on my long runs are under 6:10 with maybe one under 6. I do control this pace as pushing faster has not proven to be any better when considering benefit, injury, and getting ready for the next quality day. Some weeks I am content to just be closing slightly under MP if it is just not there. Near the tail end of the training block, it helps to mix the intensity of the 3 quality runs in a given week to avoid too much overload e.g. shorten or lengthen tempo run on week with > or < a 20 mile long run respectively. My stepback week reduction comes largely from long run cut and I will try to hold tempo and repeats to progressive standard.
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Re: Marathon Pace Runs [ktm520] [ In reply to ]
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dirtymangos wrote:



This is a good way to predict marathon pace. (It is also a very difficult workout and might therefore be a bad idea).
Workout:
Run 12 miles at long run pace. Then run 8 miles hard.
The pace that you can hold for the 8 miles is the pace that you can hold for a marathon.



That sounds like a tough workout. Run this once, or several times during training?


AboveGround wrote:
I've found the very long 2-1's to be the most important training runs I do. If I can do the last 10k 30-45 seconds faster than marathon pace I've got lots of confidence when I hit mile twenty on race day. Good luck. I'm also hoping to do around 2:45 this spring.



Man, the last 10K at that pace would be pretty hard, especially since I'm targeting 6:20. Good luck this spring!


OldFart wrote:
As for Dirty's marathon predictor. I like that but do not see a great need for it until about 4wks out. Many variations of the workout but I like 10 starting easy and building to moderate and then basically race 10. The average pace you can hold for the raced 10mi can be a solid predictor of what you can race the marathon at. That is a very hard workout and needs to be done with ample time to recover prior to your race.



Ouch, man. If I do that workout, I'll probably do that with at least 6 weeks to go.


goldentech wrote:
I think a 10 mile all out TT is a good place (or half marathon run at 90-95%) , which you could then put into a running calculator (daniels), to get a better ballpark for what marathon time is reasonable for race day. The nice thing about a 10 miler or 1/2 marathon is that they are basically long tempo runs and it will is a perfect marathon workout to begin with. Then it is important to stick to the plan and not overachieve in the workouts - just stick to the script, else you run a good chance or arriving on race day feeling great and having killed some workouts only to $hit the bed and go home disappointed.



I used a recent (hilly) 10 mile race to determine what I could possibly run. I ran a 58:25, and McMillan tells me I **should** be able to run a 2:45:xx. Sticking to the plan seems right, even if a marathon pace run feels kind of slow. I don't want to put in all this work and "shit the bed" on race day.


JoeO wrote:
Don't run faster. The specificity of running the pace at which you intend to race is important. If it feels easy for you to run that MP, try running more miles at MP instead. Make the 10 mile MP be 12. Or perhaps do workouts where you do multiple long blocks at MP (4 or 5 mile blocks) with short recovery between. You don't have to do it all in one block.



Yeah, that's what I was thinking...I'm adding mileage to the plan b/c I felt that, while it is a good plan, the mileage is kind of low. More than likely, I'm going to add distance to most of the runs, to include the marathon pace runs.




ktm520 wrote:
That is about what I have found for a 2:45-2:50 my closing miles on my long runs are under 6:10 with maybe one under 6. I do control this pace as pushing faster has not proven to be any better when considering benefit, injury, and getting ready for the next quality day. Some weeks I am content to just be closing slightly under MP if it is just not there. Near the tail end of the training block, it helps to mix the intensity of the 3 quality runs in a given week to avoid too much overload e.g. shorten or lengthen tempo run on week with > or < a 20 mile long run respectively. My stepback week reduction comes largely from long run cut and I will try to hold tempo and repeats to progressive standard.



Negative splitting the long run, or just the finishing miles?
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Re: Marathon Pace Runs [d00d] [ In reply to ]
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Some 10k & halfs can sort of predict a marathon but it's still tough. I know women who will never break 38 in a 10k or 83 in a half (610+ & 625 paces) but can do 3 flat (652 pace). But I also know 30 min + (450 pace!) 10k fellas who can't break 230 (540+ pace) & 36 min guys who can't break 3 (me when I was 35 to 40).
Last edited by: TBinMT: Dec 22, 14 17:14
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Re: Marathon Pace Runs [d00d] [ In reply to ]
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Negative splitting the long run, or just the finishing miles?

Both. I consider negative splitting as a time assessment of halves, so yes the entire run is a negative split; first half:second half (faster). I break the long run into 1/4's; so in essence within the last 3 quarters there is also a negative split. First quarter is recovery pace or at least 90 seconds slower than MP, second quarter progressing 90-60 seconds over MP, third quarter easy progression to MP by the end of quarter, last quarter sub MP as previously described. Of course flexibility is required for hillier runs; pace versus effort. Also, I have found that most folks are challenged with the discipline to run the first part of these long runs slow as it requires reigning from what is comfortable.

Your experience may vary, but I have been fortunate enough to have experimented on myself and many others for a number of years and this seems to yield the best predictive results for runners of your caliber.
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Re: Marathon Pace Runs [ktm520] [ In reply to ]
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Ran my first marathon last Memorial day and the biggest hurdle for me was to, well, run SLOW! I hated it and I felt like I wasn't getting a lot out of my workouts. I followed a similar plan and learning to run slow was the hardest part. But, I felt awesome during training, during the marathon and beat my goal of 3:05, ran a 2:59:xx. Stick with the plan, you'll be fine
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