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Loss in power after fit?
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Had a retul fit done end of December 2017. FTP of 286 has been stagnant since. I use trainerroad (have been using for 3.5 years, with Quarq power meter).

Fitter raised my saddle, which still allowed knee angle to remain within accepted limits. Can the saddle being higher cause loss of power. I seem to be "struggling" through workouts...and would typically begin to see them starting to get easier.

I do 3-4 rides per week. Mostly sweet spot, and one VO2 max session at least once every two weeks.

Edit: I weigh 168 lbs, so I'm at 3.75/kg.

Perhaps I'm plateauing? Suggestions? Thoughts?

Not everything is as it seems -Mr. Miagi
Last edited by: chxddstri: Feb 12, 18 9:47
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Re: Loss in power after fit? [chxddstri] [ In reply to ]
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Bump

Not everything is as it seems -Mr. Miagi
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Re: Loss in power after fit? [chxddstri] [ In reply to ]
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Power loss is far more common when lowing the saddle and I would say it's acceptable if it's accompanied by a drop in CdA. Seeing as raising your saddle is far more likely to raise your CdA, is simply put it back to where it was.
I'm very anti-fitter when it comes to TT position as changes in CdA can't be taken into account without testing.
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Re: Loss in power after fit? [chxddstri] [ In reply to ]
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Lower your saddle.
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Re: Loss in power after fit? [chxddstri] [ In reply to ]
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Thread title is misleading. You didn't lose power, you simply aren't gaining power. Something the fitter did might be the culprit, but if you came out of the fit with the "exact" same as FTP as you went in with, that theory is suspect.

I put exact in quotes because stating your FTP down to the single digit belies a fundamental understanding of the concept. At best, you call it to the nearest 5, but when you get up close to 300, it might be a good time to round it down to the nearest 10 and leave it at that, until you are certain it has gone up at least 10 watts.

Sounds like you have been at this for a long time, perhaps doing the same thing for a number of years? I would look first to reevaluating your program and perhaps posting some before and after photos and videos of the fit. You got those right? Of course you did. Because no slowtwitch reader is going to a fit and not getting at least before and after photos, along with their primary fit coordinates. I look forward to some vids with my morning joe.


3 Months of Paradigm Shifting Swim Instruction for Cheap ---- Your Professional & Private “Critique my Fit”
The Swim Help Compilation Thread

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Re: Loss in power after fit? [Grill] [ In reply to ]
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Grill wrote:
I'm very anti-fitter when it comes to TT position as changes in CdA can't be taken into account without testing.

That's just not true.


3 Months of Paradigm Shifting Swim Instruction for Cheap ---- Your Professional & Private “Critique my Fit”
The Swim Help Compilation Thread

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Re: Loss in power after fit? [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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FindinFreestyle wrote:
Grill wrote:
I'm very anti-fitter when it comes to TT position as changes in CdA can't be taken into account without testing.

That's just not true.

Oh? Go on, enlighten me.
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Re: Loss in power after fit? [chxddstri] [ In reply to ]
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First question would be whether you feel significantly better in the new position. If the answer is no. then mark your saddle height and try dropping it 5 mm. The same suggestion goes with raising the bar height 5 mm or changing the saddle angle by a couple degrees. Fitters are going by formula and eyeball observations. There is no absolute fastest formula. I can lose 20 watts at FTP for a minor saddle height or angle change.

Given that you cant make any fitness gains at this time of the year, mark and measure your current position and experiment with minor tweeks. If you find a position that is much more comfortable chances are it sill be faster because comfort=wattage and there aren't too many times that a minor tweak is going to save you 20-30 watts in Cd.
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Re: Loss in power after fit? [Grill] [ In reply to ]
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Grill wrote:
Power loss is far more common when lowing the saddle and I would say it's acceptable if it's accompanied by a drop in CdA. Seeing as raising your saddle is far more likely to raise your CdA, is simply put it back to where it was.
I'm very anti-fitter when it comes to TT position as changes in CdA can't be taken into account without testing.

Thanks to all for your responses. This reply is the only one that answered my question. I was simply curious if raising the seat can hamper my training. Easy peasy question.

I understand that someone thought the subject line was misleading. I apologize. I suppose it would be more accurate to say "I haven't been making any gains since my last fitting almost two months ago. In addition,my trainer road sessions seem to be more difficult to finish since the fit." But that wouldn't fit on the subject line.

Not everything is as it seems -Mr. Miagi
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Re: Loss in power after fit? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
First question would be whether you feel significantly better in the new position. If the answer is no. then mark your saddle height and try dropping it 5 mm. The same suggestion goes with raising the bar height 5 mm or changing the saddle angle by a couple degrees. Fitters are going by formula and eyeball observations. There is no absolute fastest formula. I can lose 20 watts at FTP for a minor saddle height or angle change.

Given that you cant make any fitness gains at this time of the year, mark and measure your current position and experiment with minor tweeks. If you find a position that is much more comfortable chances are it sill be faster because comfort=wattage and there aren't too many times that a minor tweak is going to save you 20-30 watts in Cd.

I don't feel any more comfortable, or less comfortable in the new position. I simply am struggling to finish workouts that were previously more "doable". WRT making fitness gains this time of year, I tend to make significant gains in the winter. I didn't know that was unusual. Is it?

Not everything is as it seems -Mr. Miagi
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Re: Loss in power after fit? [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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jimatbeyond wrote:
Lower your saddle.

Yeah, Einstein, I did that. I'll see how that goes over the next couple of weeks. Thanks.

Not everything is as it seems -Mr. Miagi
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Re: Loss in power after fit? [chxddstri] [ In reply to ]
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at least you're doing intervals in the aero position... most people don't.

chxddstri wrote:
jimatbeyond wrote:
Lower your saddle.


Yeah, Einstein, I did that. I'll see how that goes over the next couple of weeks. Thanks.

Eric Reid
AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Chapel Hill, NC
Aerodynamic Optimized Bike Fitting, Retul Pre-Purchase Bike Fitting, USAT Level 1 Triathlon Coaching, Nutrition
Ask me: Scody Optimized Speed Suits | CeramicSpeed Oversized Pulley Systems | HUUB Skinsuits and Wetsuits | Ventum Bicycles and Frames
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Re: Loss in power after fit? [chxddstri] [ In reply to ]
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chxddstri wrote:
grumpier.mike wrote:
First question would be whether you feel significantly better in the new position. If the answer is no. then mark your saddle height and try dropping it 5 mm. The same suggestion goes with raising the bar height 5 mm or changing the saddle angle by a couple degrees. Fitters are going by formula and eyeball observations. There is no absolute fastest formula. I can lose 20 watts at FTP for a minor saddle height or angle change.

Given that you cant make any fitness gains at this time of the year, mark and measure your current position and experiment with minor tweeks. If you find a position that is much more comfortable chances are it sill be faster because comfort=wattage and there aren't too many times that a minor tweak is going to save you 20-30 watts in Cd.

I don't feel any more comfortable, or less comfortable in the new position. I simply am struggling to finish workouts that were previously more "doable". WRT making fitness gains this time of year, I tend to make significant gains in the winter. I didn't know that was unusual. Is it?

Do you have any heart rate data from before and after the fit? You could compare HR for a similar workout and see if maybe you can get an indication that your breathing is constricted. Did you go a bunch narrower. on the new fit?
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Re: Loss in power after fit? [Grill] [ In reply to ]
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Grill wrote:
FindinFreestyle wrote:
Grill wrote:

I'm very anti-fitter when it comes to TT position as changes in CdA can't be taken into account without testing.


That's just not true.


Oh? Go on, enlighten me.

I would take less issue with the statement if you replace "taken into account" with "measured precisely". Is that enlightening? I still disagree with the first part, but also understand that most riders' experience with bike fitters is less than ideal. I wouldn't quite say the industry is in shambles, but it is pretty much the wild west out there, despite our editor's attempts to improve it.

"Taken into account" really just means thought about or considered, and I consider the aerodynamic effects during every bike fit. Are my assumptions always correct? Probably not. Is lower always faster? No. The thing is, "lower isn't always faster" is just a trite way of saying that it is almost always is.

Certainly for the 99% of aerobar riders who walk through my door with 110° of hip angle and their heads 9 inches over the level of their back, yes they are absolutely leaving with improved, yet unquantified, CdA. For the 1%er, the slowtwitch reader, most likely you, there is less certainty, and I wouldn't propose to be certain. What I would propose is that the modern fit bike in capable hands is the place to begin. My goal for such fits is to insure the primary coordinates are optimized and then a formulate a hierarchy of questions to be answered via field or tunnel testing. Those questions are almost always 1) what helmet should I wear? 2) what clothing should I wear? 3) should I angle my forearms? 4) should I ride narrower or wider? 5) where should I put my nutrition?

Conspicuously absent from that list is "How much drop should I ride?" While that is a question that testing is entirely qualified to answer, it's just not the low hanging fruit of testing time. There are just so many variables going into front end shape when you consider drop, reach, elbow width, hand width, aerobar angle, aerobar cant... and then how they all play into different helmets... testing everything from scratch is not possible. You have to start with a proper fit on proper equipment, with certain aerodynamic assumptions, and with an experienced eyeball wind tunnel that "takes into account" the most likely effects on CdA.


3 Months of Paradigm Shifting Swim Instruction for Cheap ---- Your Professional & Private “Critique my Fit”
The Swim Help Compilation Thread

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Re: Loss in power after fit? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
chxddstri wrote:
grumpier.mike wrote:
First question would be whether you feel significantly better in the new position. If the answer is no. then mark your saddle height and try dropping it 5 mm. The same suggestion goes with raising the bar height 5 mm or changing the saddle angle by a couple degrees. Fitters are going by formula and eyeball observations. There is no absolute fastest formula. I can lose 20 watts at FTP for a minor saddle height or angle change.

Given that you cant make any fitness gains at this time of the year, mark and measure your current position and experiment with minor tweeks. If you find a position that is much more comfortable chances are it sill be faster because comfort=wattage and there aren't too many times that a minor tweak is going to save you 20-30 watts in Cd.

I don't feel any more comfortable, or less comfortable in the new position. I simply am struggling to finish workouts that were previously more "doable". WRT making fitness gains this time of year, I tend to make significant gains in the winter. I didn't know that was unusual. Is it?

Do you have any heart rate data from before and after the fit? You could compare HR for a similar workout and see if maybe you can get an indication that your breathing is constricted. Did you go a bunch narrower. on the new fit?

Yes, heart rate is slightly higher at comparable wattage. That's what has been grabbing my attention along with RPE.

Not everything is as it seems -Mr. Miagi
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Re: Loss in power after fit? [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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So CdA gains/losses can't be quantified by a fitter with any more surety than throwing darts at a dartboard. Gotchya. Eyeball tunnel and butt dyno on order...

This gave me a giggle.
Is lower always faster? No. The thing is, "lower isn't always faster" is just a trite way of saying that it is almost always is.


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Re: Loss in power after fit? [Grill] [ In reply to ]
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Grill wrote:
So CdA gains/losses can't be quantified by a fitter with any more surety than throwing darts at a dartboard.


Exactly! The only variable becomes "who's throwing the darts?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGNZ3GqYrVY


3 Months of Paradigm Shifting Swim Instruction for Cheap ---- Your Professional & Private “Critique my Fit”
The Swim Help Compilation Thread

Last edited by: FindinFreestyle: Feb 13, 18 5:34
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Re: Loss in power after fit? [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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doesn't matter who is throwing the darts when they are throwing at the wrong board
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Re: Loss in power after fit? [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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I agree that for 99% of the population a good fitter can improve comfort and CDA.


For the 1% of people that are already towards the pointy end of the eyeball wind tunnel I have been using the STAC Virtual Wind Tunnel. It usually means a follow up appointment, but most people searching for percents are ok with a follow up.

Did you try it? I think I saw you posting about it on Facebook.

Definitely more accurate than throwing darts ha.

*I am sponsored by STAC so maybe I have some bias, but for convenience and ease I think it is a great tool

--------------------------------
F2C NutritionStac Zero Trainer MultiSport Canada BLOG TWITTER
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Re: Loss in power after fit? [A vdLinden] [ In reply to ]
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Have you compared it to a proper tunnel or velodrome? Give it a try if it's free, but I think it's a waste of cash.
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Re: Loss in power after fit? [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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jeffp wrote:
doesn't matter who is throwing the darts when they are throwing at the wrong board

If you could describe how your tangential "wrong board" metaphor relates to the already rebuked "dart board metaphor" I would be happy to discuss that as well. Specifically, what is the wrong board that bike fitters who assert they can improve your aerodynamics are throwing at?

All I see is a small cross section of riders asserting that something an admittedly small cross section of fitters can do quite successfully, can't be done.


3 Months of Paradigm Shifting Swim Instruction for Cheap ---- Your Professional & Private “Critique my Fit”
The Swim Help Compilation Thread

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Re: Loss in power after fit? [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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jeffp wrote:
doesn't matter who is throwing the darts when they are throwing at the wrong board


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Re: Loss in power after fit? [chxddstri] [ In reply to ]
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Depends on your end game for fit.

Want to podium, race pro, top AG, etc? Fit is as aggressive as possible maximizing power and minimizing incorrect fit that could cause injury. You have to adapt to it and it is not the most comfortable fit.

Want to "enjoy" your ride? Fit to aggressive and then dial back to comfort level. No one is the same, so adjusting seat height could be due to preference or the fitter seeing you are out of motion range and could be an issue.

If it wasn't broke, don't fix it. If you wanted more power and everything else was good, time to change your training. If you had pain or discomfort and wanted an adjustment, then fit timing is right.

When you change the fit, even minimally, you will have a period of adjustment where your body needs to gain back efficiency to the new fit. I'd give it a few weeks, and if you don't see changes, change your training plan. If you are in pain or discomfort, change the seat back.

Ryan
http://www.SetThePaceTriathlon.com
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Re: Loss in power after fit? [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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FindinFreestyle wrote:
jeffp wrote:
doesn't matter who is throwing the darts when they are throwing at the wrong board

If you could describe how your tangential "wrong board" metaphor relates to the already rebuked "dart board metaphor" I would be happy to discuss that as well. Specifically, what is the wrong board that bike fitters who assert they can improve your aerodynamics are throwing at?

All I see is a small cross section of riders asserting that something an admittedly small cross section of fitters can do quite successfully, can't be done.

This is just silly. Continuing the metaphor; it's as if neither the client nor the fitter can see the dartboard in question and the client is wholly reliant in what the fitter says he hit. The fitter simply can't validate an aero claim without testing, which very few are able to do.
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Re: Loss in power after fit? [Grill] [ In reply to ]
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Grill wrote:
FindinFreestyle wrote:
jeffp wrote:
doesn't matter who is throwing the darts when they are throwing at the wrong board


If you could describe how your tangential "wrong board" metaphor relates to the already rebuked "dart board metaphor" I would be happy to discuss that as well. Specifically, what is the wrong board that bike fitters who assert they can improve your aerodynamics are throwing at?

All I see is a small cross section of riders asserting that something an admittedly small cross section of fitters can do quite successfully, can't be done.


This is just silly. Continuing the metaphor; it's as if neither the client nor the fitter can see the dartboard in question and the client is wholly reliant in what the fitter says he hit. The fitter simply can't validate an aero claim without testing, which very few are able to do.



If a fitter can educates a rider to go from the left head position to the right one, out of of 100 riders, how many times do you think the rider is likely to be less aerodynamic? You might think this is silly, but I find it silly that you think that something can't be almost certainly improved qualitatively simply because it can't be absolutely quantitatively measured.


3 Months of Paradigm Shifting Swim Instruction for Cheap ---- Your Professional & Private “Critique my Fit”
The Swim Help Compilation Thread

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