Have you gone away from power cranks? Maybe that is the issue.

That is an interesting takeaway. I tested going in the opposite direction for Vineman 70.3 coming off Oceanside. I went from:

Training:
Oceanside: 3x60-75 minute wahoo trainer road rides during the week + 1x 3-4 hour ride on weekend
Vineman: 2x 75-90 minute outdoor rides + 1x 3ish hour ride on the weekend


I live in Livermore, CA so i have a ton of great, safe rides that i can start at 6:30-7pm. What i found so easy was working above threshold. Just from my house i could do the following:
1.) 2x10 minutes climbing (over and back on Del Valle)
2.) 4x10 minutes climbing (above x2)
3.) 1x20 minutes climbing (Mines Rd)
4.) I found a local 1/3 mile hill that I would do 8-10x

I feel like there is no way i could have rode sets like these on trainerroad, etc. but that is just me, and maybe I am an indoor riding sissy

I basically did no "recovery" riding, though my average weekly saddle time went down by about an hour. My motto was if I didn't climb at least 1K ft in an hour ride, i wasn't trying hard enough.

As to how this translated into race performance, my bike split rank dramatically improved between these two races, and my run % also improved slightly. Obviously other factors at play here, and N=1, but I do believe I pushed much harder in training doing it outside.

No way, I LOVE my powercranks for how it helps my running. My running is by far my strength!
The Bionic runner is helping my running also.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

OK, just checking.

I'm confused by your statement "no way I could have rode sets like these on trainerroad". How do you mean?

I do not think I would be able to complete the sets indoors at the wattages I was putting out on the open road. My trainerroad FTP is pretty accurate, so that isn't really an issue. I am just a much better rider outside than indoors.

Or you don't have enough of a fan or fans indoors. I still haven't beat my peak 1 second though 60 minute indoor power from last winter outdoors this year.

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

most definitely true. my indoor vs outdoor ftp is about 90 watts different

Great stuff. I grew up in Livermore, so I know those places.

For me, I cannot train hard, whether it is swim, bike or run. I just do not have the mental strength to dig deep for training.

My swim is a little slower from when I stopped Masters 7 years ago, but not enough to worry about investing any more effort. I swim 3 days a week, for an hour,
and just swim. No clock. No sets. Just swim. Gives me around a 25-26 for an Oly 1.5K swim

But on the trainer, I just cannot got hard like I can in a race. Again, it is mental. Folks like Andy Potts and others can kick ass on the trainer, I just LSD it.
When I was doing my weekly 4 hour, 60 mile, 5000 feet climbing heading to Colfax, even though I never did it "hard", just doing this 4 hour ride kicked my butt.
No question as I have reduced, or eliminated this once a week long ride, my bike times have gotten slower. Age also? Not willing to use that excuse yet.

I also in running just do my 90 minute runs. Now, if I could bike like I could run, well. I was shocked to again have the 3rd fastest run at Donner Sunday, 6:45 pace on that killer run at altitude. So, I clearly am doing something right in my run training with powercranks, bionic runner, lots of LSD hill work, that I do not need to worry about changing anything in my run training.

Wish I could say that being on the trainer 7 days a week made my biking stronger, but the race results do not lie. On the flats, I did not see it has much. But with lots of killer hills, the lack of endurance sure shows.

Oh well, is giving me something to change again for next season. One reason I love this sport, one always has to change things to see what works, or does not work, at the moment.

Since I start racing in the end of Jan, with hills, I guess I will have to see if I can get out riding in winter. Maybe it will not rain again this year. :)

Thanks for your post.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Okay. Understood. That's definitely like me and on a treadmill vs outdoors. I hate running on a treadmill and always feel like I'm dying and can't seem to go as fast.

I can do my 10 minute 6:30 pace bricks on the treadmill, but that is it!! I do all my real running outside since I feel the large amount of hill work I have gone is also critical to my running success.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dave,

A factor that is hard to measure is joy and motivation. I simply enjoy the long rides out all by myself. Take that away and I don't think I would have or keep anywhere near the zest and gusto. I just wouldn't be the same without it!

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

True, but watching movies while on the trainer is great.

I have just had so many close calls on the roads, but, .. :(

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I hear you, and the close calls are no joke, But . . . :( (as you say....) and I agree

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

I too have found that I just enjoy cycling a lot more and don't 'dread' the bike weekend bike workout when done outdoors. (Helps I live in Norcal, which is perhaps the most year-round bike-friendly place in the US.)

I never got to the point where I enjoyed indoor 2+ hr rides. Never. I got them to tolerable with movies + Trainerroad, but that's as good as I can say about it, and I was glad when they were done with.

That said, I do believe that for sprints/olys, I would be pretty confident going into them for a strong bike performance on my part with mostly indoor training, mainly because you can really hammer intervals more reliably indoor on a trainer (albeit them still not being much fun.) For the longer stuff though, it's simply so much more fun (and thus doable) outdoors.

I noticed in your post that you said a knee injury limited your indoor power - perhaps that's the reason why you're underperforming on the bike?

Yep, I have a bum knee, but not using that as an excuse.

You hit the nail for me, really hammer intervals on the trainer. I have yet to be able to do this on the trainer. Just have not been able to find the mental ability to do.

Now, I am hoping one day someone will move in near me and wants to train in my man cave with me. I am in the process of updating my family room to setup
the trainers, treadmill, and DDR pads. Looking at buying some 65 inch panels and trying to get multi rider going. Maybe this might get someone to want
to train with me on the trainer, we can try to kick each others butt.

Even so, I have to admit. Doing those 4 hour bike rides outside, I just could NEVER get close to this on the trainer.

I know when I used my health rider, using the video supplied allowed me to work much harder on it than without.

Maybe trying an erg video, or real course video on the Velotron might help. I am just a little limited with options since most folks do not support the Velotron. :(

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dave, try buying a Sufferfest video. Even if you don't use that Sufferfest workout every workout, or, ever, you can listen to the audio track from it, as well as watch pro cycling footage, which I find highly motivating when suffering in a 60-90min indoor session.

I have heard great things about these videos. But, will they work on a velotron? :(

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I've selected a few quotes from your post for emphasis and to highlight a few things


This is your problem right here, it sounds like you're basically doing no intensity on the bike. I do not know one person who has taken their bike to the next level without at least a sprinkling of intensity in there. LSD on the bike, and only LSD is no good.

If you want to keep your power cranks then fine, keep them for your easy rides. But at least three of your rides a week need some intensity, on those three days ditch the power cranks, train as you would race and knuckle down into some threshold/sweet spot/above threshold type work. Only LSD just won't cut it on the bike.

I don't know if the workout/ERG will work with a Velotron, but I'd recommend trying a video out solely for the audio/video motivational benefits. This doesn't require integration with anything - it is just a video you play on your computer.

I do interval work on the bike 3 days a week. Just did this morning

160-300 watts, 10 watts per minute, 15 minutes.
5 minutes 150 watts
5 minutes 190 watts
Then 3 sets of 230 watts for 10, then 5 minutes of 120 watts spin.
End with 10 minutes of 120 watts.

For a wuss like me, is this not an interval workout?

My gearing is 50/16 for these sessions.

And I have no issues using the powercranks on the bike. They really are not hard at all.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

What is your FTP?

As an example my current bike training consists of 4 rides a week structured like this:

- 1hr with 2 x 15 min over/unders (5 sets of 2min @ 95% FTP/1min @ 105% FTP), 10 min rest in Z2, warm up and cool down Z2
- 1hr 30min with 3 x 15 min @ 95% FTP. 10 min rest between efforts in Z2, warm up and cool down Z2
- 1hr with 6 x 4 min 115% FTP, 4 min rest between efforts in Z2, warm up and cool down in Z2
- 4hr with 2 x 1hr @ 85% FTP, with short (5-10 min) rest between efforts in Z2, rest of time in Z2

My long ride is structured to be specific to my target race demands. I have a HIM in November so I do 2 x 1hr @ 85% FTP. If I was training for an Oly I'd likely do 3 x 20 min @ FTP on longer rest, and for an IM which I'm training for in March 17 I'll switch to 2 x 2hr @ 75% FTP on short rest.

Probably around 265 maybe.

Wow, no way , today, could I do that. I cannot do what I am doing now with my bum knee. I see why I am failing on the trainer. I have yet to find a way to work that hard,
and my results show it. :(

Thanks for this info.

Guess I need to do another FTP test. Been a while

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yes the sessions are hard, the trainer sessions mid-week take some mental strength to get through, particularly the last few minutes of intervals.

Well if your knee is really that bad I'd suggest you either get it fixed if you can, otherwise if you can't train in a way to improve your bike performance you'll just have to accept that you'll be mediocre on the bike.

Out of curiosity, what part of your knee hurts while cycling? Is it the patella tendon, or do you have pain on the medial or lateral side of the knee? Have you had it checked by someone that knows what they are doing before?