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Long and low? Shiv TT?
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Are any of the current bike manufacturers making a long and low geometry bike anymore? I know there's always the old P3 or P4 but what about bikes currently on the market.
Last edited by: Fishbum: Dec 4, 17 17:50
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Re: Long and low? [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Not really, but it's not as big of a deal as some people make it out to be. My reference for the old long and low was a 54cm P3 with a frame S&R of roughly 500, 420. So no, you won't find anything (that I am aware of) with that long of a reach at that low of a stack anymore. That is more the stack of bikes in the 50-52 range these days.

The reality is very few were riding that low, and if anything, the "average" position has come up as triathlon has become more bucket list, BMI's have increased, and Slowman has failed so far at his task of reforming the fit industry.

For those few (like me) that need that old geometry, modern aerobars and short cranks to the rescue. I used to ride the old 54cm P3 geometry, properly slammed, with about 16cm of drop. So the new 54cm P3 has roughly 2.5 cm of additional stack, which would seem highly problematic, but really isn't. I can ride that bike in the same position because my crank is now 1cm shorter, so my seat is 1cm higher, so there's 1cm. Add in the Tririg bars with a short dust cover and I can get that other roughly 1cm of drop back as well, and push the pads far enough forward to compensate for the decreased reach.

And of course that P3 takes a standard stem, and I would put a 13cm on there in a heartbeat if I need to. 13cm -17°? Sure thing! 13cm -25°? Why not? The old Vision bars that came on the P3 were a disaster. Decently low enough but nearly worthless for fore and aft adjustments. The Tririgs are lower anyway, with immense fore and aft adjustments, and I hear pretty aero. Cant afford them? Get the stem you need with a Profile Ozero basebar and some Profile T3 or T5 clip-ons. There are other options.

The real problem are bikes with crappy proprietary front ends combined with riders who need that old long and low geometry

So bikes are taller and shorter, but there are ways man.

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Last edited by: FindinFreestyle: Dec 3, 17 14:51
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Re: Long and low? [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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Yea I'm on a NP3 56. 155 crank and a - 17 degrees stem. 110 mm and have started pushing the seat back. This isn't a need but a want (as is most things in life).
I'm going to do some TTs next year and just curious. I've contempled going to a 120 stem but that's getting long in my opinion.
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Re: Long and low? [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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The Fuji Norcom Straight is fairly long and low, especially the size large (53) at 503/420. The smaller sizes aren't much lower, and the next size up is quite a bit taller (540), but that one size is pretty old-school, fit-wise.
Last edited by: gary p: Dec 3, 17 15:05
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Re: Long and low? [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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I think you’d have to go with a European TT specific frame ie, Basso, Cipollini, Bianchi etc.
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Re: Long and low? [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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FindinFreestyle wrote:
And of course that P3 takes a standard stem, and I would put a 13cm on there in a heartbeat if I need to. 13cm -17°? Sure thing! 13cm -25°? Why not? The old Vision bars that came on the P3 were a disaster. Decently low enough but nearly worthless for fore and aft adjustments. The Tririgs are lower anyway, with immense fore and aft adjustments, and I hear pretty aero. Cant afford them? Get the stem you need with a Profile Ozero basebar and some Profile T3 or T5 clip-ons. There are other options.
This 100%.

If you are looking for stock "long and low", at least in terms of armpad position, the Orbea Ordu Starky rides gets out there longer than some of its competitors.

Trent Nix
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Re: Long and low? [mike s] [ In reply to ]
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The Basso comes in 3 sizes (ugh), 75.5 degree seat tube angle, and a frame S&R of 524, 417 in the largest 55cm, which is 2mm lower and 6mm longer than the current 54cm P3. So you get the length, but a likely seat position where it will be unusable, and negligible 2mm more drop, which again will be likely unusable with the slack seat tube.

The Cippo is a little better, four sizes and a 75 degree frame but a theoretical 78 actual STA. (I'm assuming at it's steepest, which still sorta sucks). The size with the old 54cm P3 stack of 498 is the Small, with a small appropriate reach of 378. In the Large (54cm) it has a frame stack of 523 or 1mm taller than the current 54cm P3. And a reach of 410.5, so it is essentially a new P3 copy with a shitty seat tube angle and less sizes. Ugh.

These euro brands don't get it. They are still designing around slack seat tubes, which pretty much kills the need for long and low front ends, which they don't really have anyway.

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Re: Long and low? [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Fishbum wrote:
Yea I'm on a NP3 56. 155 crank and a - 17 degrees stem. 110 mm and have started pushing the seat back. This isn't a need but a want (as is most things in life).
I'm going to do some TTs next year and just curious. I've contempled going to a 120 stem but that's getting long in my opinion.

120mm is just starting to live. Tri bikes are just not all that sensitive to stem length. You might be, but your bike isn't. IIRC, the shortest effective stem length on the old Felt DA was like 60mm or something ridiculous.

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Re: Long and low? [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Premier Tactical is longer and lower than most other tt/tri bikes. The Pinarello Bolide is by the looks of it quite low. Not sure many people could ride that comfortably without a stack of spacers

Matt
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Re: Long and low? [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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Lol. Well I guess I need to try a longer stem.
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Re: Long and low? [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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I have to ride an old P3C with a -17 stem fully slammed and the lowest pad stack bars I could find at the time (older Devoz Bayonet). Even though I'm only 5'10" I'm on a 56 for the reach. My pad xy is 575/510.

I can't make my position on many new "super"bikes, but I can fit onto a Canyon Speedmax in Medium which is probably what I'll end up doing if I ever have to replace the P3C.

For other ideas Dan featured me as one of his two aliens in the article "Bike Solutions for Aliens".. from memory I think the Speed Concept was a possibility and a couple of others if I used the Tririg bars with undermount extensions and pads slammed.

Edit: found it.
http://www.slowtwitch.com/...for_Aliens_5843.html
Last edited by: knighty76: Dec 3, 17 16:45
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Re: Long and low? [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Can you hold aero the entire race?

No

Then who cares?

Yes

Now, lets talk about long and low.
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Re: Long and low? [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
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My longest race so far was a 70.3 and other than a water bottle issues yes I did.
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Re: Long and low? [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Well, count me impressed.

I would say that you can get long and low in a lot of bikes. Its all about how you work out the fit. I believe that I have become long and low on my Giant Trinity Advanced Pro 2. But perhaps that isn't low enough?
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Re: Long and low? [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Isn't the Shiv TT considered long and low? Pad Y/stack is the same for all sizes and it has a pretty short head tube, so as long as you can get low enough all you do is ordered the larger frame size until you get the required length.
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Re: Long and low? [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
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I will be interested to see if I can hold for 110 mi. ( Maybe). But this is more about time trials and curiosity. The length is my issue on my P3 But a 120 stem maybe the answer.
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Re: Long and low? [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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What about the shiv TT in a x-large?
It's longer and lower than a NP3 in a 56.
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Re: Long and low? [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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That was my thought and while the extension mount isn't designed to go under the bar, it wouldn't be a huge fabrication job. This would put the pad height at about 80cm above the ground.

I have the small size nosecone version if you need some measurements.
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Re: Long and low? [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Problem with Shiv TT is only 2 pad offset positions and 3 widths. No tilt either.
Would be a good option with better bars.

You could hunt for a Merida Warp TT from outside the US (as an owner of Specialized Merida don't want to soil the nest by competing in Specs home territory)


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Re: Long and low? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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Can you run different basebars in the TT?
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Re: Long and low? [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Well that is a loaded question. USE makes/made a a bar. Tony Martin ran the Shimano Pro, but I am not sure how they made the stem work. The fork itself is a standard 1 1/8 steer tube. The trick will be having the bolts/profile on the back tight enough to fit in the notch of the top tube.

The adjustability of the Shiv bars has never been great. The bike was designed for Cancellara and his low/flat hand position. Nevertheless, the bolt spacing for the pads is generic, so you can run any of the aftermarket pads and extensions. I run a super narrow high-hand position made out of a hodge podge of parts.

Specialized doesn't even list the Shiv TT in the US, but if you look at the British site, they added a new fork to replace the old 3:1 fork and changed the layup.
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Re: Long and low? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
Well that is a loaded question. USE makes/made a a bar. Tony Martin ran the Shimano Pro, but I am not sure how they made the stem work. The fork itself is a standard 1 1/8 steer tube. The trick will be having the bolts/profile on the back tight enough to fit in the notch of the top tube.

The adjustability of the Shiv bars has never been great. The bike was designed for Cancellara and his low/flat hand position. Nevertheless, the bolt spacing for the pads is generic, so you can run any of the aftermarket pads and extensions. I run a super narrow high-hand position made out of a hodge podge of parts.

Specialized doesn't even list the Shiv TT in the US, but if you look at the British site, they added a new fork to replace the old 3:1 fork and changed the layup.

I'm just curious, where did you hear they changed the layup? Isn't the fork just the same fork as the 'Tri' Shiv has had for a while?
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Re: Long and low? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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I can use any bars and pads that would solve my problem with that bar. I could use the Zipp Evo 110 Bars I currently use and they're tied attached directly to the bar which I had a tilt shim made for. So am I understanding you correctly that. Would work on their Factory bar
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Re: Long and low? Shiv TT? [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Felt DA and previous generation Giant Trinity should be reasonable long/low, no?
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Re: Long and low? Shiv TT? [ctflower] [ In reply to ]
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Are you talking about the current model of the DEA
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