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Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post
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https://lsanderstri.com/

Backwards Logic
SEPTEMBER 28, 2016
This article is inspired by a recent The Real Starky interview with Craig Alexander. I highly recommend you listen to the interview because Craig is a truly class act (I don’t believe the interview is public yet, unless you become a Patreon of the show, but it should be soon). He has probably been my biggest inspiration within the sport. Since December 2009 I have been staring at a picture of him winning Kona that year; banner over the shoulders, teeth gritted, Australian flag in hand. You can tell that every one of his comments come from a place of great wisdom.
Around 5 minutes into the interview my first blog post on the 70.3 World Championship comes up, particularly my comment that there is a significant draft effect occurring at the current 10m draft zone, in a race that we call “non-drafting”. Craig Alexander agrees with me that there is a draft effect occurring. He goes on to say that during his time as pro athlete ambassador to Ironman, the general sentiment coming from the pros was that a 20m draft zone is needed to make the race truly non-drafting.
The general discussion for the next couple of minutes afterwards is that being a good swimmer “earns” you the right to take part in the draft effect that occurs at the current 10m spacing; that the swim is very important because being in that pack saves you a lot of energy. This same comment and logic has been the general sentiment coming from the more critical readers of that blog post. In fact, after writing that post, I was a bit surprised at how many times that comment came up. The logic goes something like this:
“Don’t try and change the system. Become a better swimmer so that you get to participate in the drafting dynamics. The guys who were ahead of you are better swimmers than you, and thus earned the right to receive that drafting effect, and take part in those dynamics”.
Quite frankly, I think this is completely backwards logic. What these upholders of the status quo are failing to realize is that the 10m draft zone not only disadvantages myself, Andreas Drietz, Sebastien Kienle, Andrew Starykowicz, and anyone else known as an “uber-biker”, but anyone who is even remotely confident in their biking ability. Said another way, the only group the current 10m draft zone BENEFITS is the “strong swimmer – weak bikers”.
Let’s use Josh Amberger as a case study. Amberger lead out of the water at 70.3 Worlds by nearly a minute. This is absolutely amazing swimming, to be able to gap and put nearly a minute into a swim pack of approximately 25 guys. Amberger is a very good cyclist, who can hold his own on the bike very well. After about 20 minutes on the bike, Amberger was swallowed up by the approximately 25 man pack coming up strong behind him. Amberger’s weapon is his swim-bike ability, and that was rendered useless in a race with such a large draft effect.
I will bet you that after the race Amberger was thinking something to the tune of: “what the hell was the point in me swimming hard, if I was just going to get swallowed up by a huge semi-draft legal bike pack?” This highlights another problem with the current 10m draft zone. It breeds mediocrity. Amberger will be much less likely in future races to take the swim out hard. Just like in ITU racing, it is pointless to swim off the front and not take a group of guys with you. You will expend unnecessary energy, only to be swallowed up by the huge pack behind you. Amberger would have been much better off to save energy, and sit in second or third place in the swim pack, letting someone else do the hard work.
Let’s use Andreas Drietz to do another case study. His swim is much closer to where my swim supposedly “should be”. He came out of the water about 20 seconds down to the main group of swimmers and bridged the gap very quickly. As usual, he immediately went to the front of the group and tried to create separation. Unfortunately for him, the course was dead flat, the winds were very light, and the draft tail was very large. There were also some very good cyclists near the front of the pack who were able to respond to his attacks. Despite being one of the best bikers in the sport, he was unable to create separation. Suddenly, guys who have no business biking within several minutes of him, were biking the same speeds…and judging by the race coverage, able to sit up and soft pedal while doing it!
Andreas’ situation is probably one of the biggest injustices that occurred in that race. He is a very good swimmer and an amazing biker, but his bike was rendered useless because of the current 10m draft zone. If it truly was a non-drafting race, there is not a doubt in my mind that he would have finished top 5. Unfortunately, he finished 11th, with no money, likely no bonuses from sponsors, and a lot of disappointment. But remember, he “earned” the right to experience that!
From Andreas’ perspective we also see where the mediocrity is bred on the bike. If you’re a strong swimmer and a strong runner, where is the incentive to expend energy unnecessarily on the bike? Over time, Ironman racing will look progressively more like ITU racing, where the strong runners all “sit-in” and let the better bikers do the work. Quite frankly, from my own perspective, if and when I do make the front bike pack, why in the world would I do any work whatsoever on the bike? I had the fastest run split after a completely solo bike ride, thus there is no incentive for me to exert any unnecessary energy on the bike. This is the logic that the current 10m draft zone breeds.
In summary, you don’t “earn” the right to get a draft effect on the bike. It’s a flaw in the current system, and that system needs to be updated.
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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [znerd] [ In reply to ]
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In my point of view the only flaw in the current system is the way that those 10m are judged by both parts. It was already simulated that the draft is minimum in 10m, but it is very difficult to figure it out while biking if you entered or not in the draft zone. I think that the work force should be on studying several solutions to guarantee that people stay 10m apart and punish the ones that doesn't (with proofs).
Last edited by: Jonny89: Sep 28, 16 8:58
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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [znerd] [ In reply to ]
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znerd wrote:

Over time, Ironman racing will look progressively more like ITU racing, where the strong runners all “sit-in” and let the better bikers do the work.

I think we're already seeing this. At IMTX the announcers didn't even know who Lange was when he took the lead on the run after sitting in the whole time on the bike. I'm curious to see how he does at Kona. Fast swimmer and threw down a 2:40 marathon (granted, after a shorter bike). Of course the Kona course will be much more dynamic that IMTX, especially if they get strong cross winds out to Hawi.
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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [jet black] [ In reply to ]
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Swimmers bitch about wetsuits.

Bikers bitch about drafting.

Runners bitch about aerobars.

Life is never fair. Suck it up buttercup. :)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [znerd] [ In reply to ]
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I find it interesting that Lionel says he looks up to Crowie, then makes this statement:

"If you’re a strong swimmer and a strong runner, where is the incentive to expend energy unnecessarily on the bike? Over time, Ironman racing will look progressively more like ITU racing, where the strong runners all “sit-in” and let the better bikers do the work."

Isn't that how Crowie usually wins? Stays close enough on the bike so that he can outrun people?

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [znerd] [ In reply to ]
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Two words for Lionel:
Powerman Zofingen

Craig Walton. Bjorn Andersson. Philip Graves. Andrew Starkowicz. There's plenty of uber swim/bikers who lose out due to the fact that being an uber swim/biker will lose to the good swim / draft pack biker / uber runner every time. Lionel is new to the party and unique only in that he is an uber bike/runner who loses out rather than the more typical uber swim/biker.

Again. Powerman Zofingen.
Last edited by: kny: Sep 28, 16 9:17
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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [znerd] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure of any solutions. If the rule were 20meters, passing and dropping back becomes impossible. Cutting down the number of athletes would help, but not for the race organizers.
A hilly course helps a lot, but any flat section drafting starts again.
Longers swims? Not a popular idea.
Like ITU racing, you have to be able to swim well. Sorry Sanders, Kona may be a long day for you., especially that this is in your head.
Rapp, any thoughts? You seem to be in the same boat.
Same is true for us age groupers, if you can't swim and run well, the win is up the rode.

Team Zoot So Cal
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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Swimmers bitch about wetsuits.

Bikers bitch about drafting.

Runners bitch about aerobars.

Life is never fair. Suck it up buttercup. :)

What a narrow-minded response. Wetsuits aren't illegal if the water is cold enough. Aerobars aren't illegal. Drafting IS illegal. But hey, let's not do anything about it. Let's just allow Ironman racing to become draft-legal bullshit, too. Wait until it gets so bad that the overriding sentiment becomes "Oh well, nothing we can about it now. We'll just have to make drafting legal." What you don't stop, will continue. Calling people buttercups because they complain for valid reasons (and rule-breaking is certainly a valid reason) isn't really fair.

Marshals need to do a better job. If rule changes are needed to increase the distance of the draft zone, so be it. Let's get it done.
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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [znerd] [ In reply to ]
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All the athletes loved the 20m draft zone for Challenge Dubai.


http://triathlon.competitor.com/...drafting-rule_113485

Quote:
In an experiment in 2012 conducted by the staff of Inside Triathlon magazine, it was found that the 10-meter drafting zone then enforced in Ironman racing still allowed a 12-watt savings at 25 mph, which equates to cutting 4 minutes and 30 seconds off of an Ironman bike leg at that speed.
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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [znerd] [ In reply to ]
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Ironman should just eliminate draft rules. Then if you are a pro, you'd better be a good swim/runner. I think the majority of suckiness of racing Ironman is adhering to the no-draft rule, and constantly worrying about the legal draft zone, getting busted by a draft marshal, and getting upset at non-enforcement by blatant drafters around us. Plus non-draft makes following an Ironman race even more boring.

It would change the pro race and the KQ race quite a bit - well, the KQ race would probably not change all that much.

A 20m draft zone would be so difficult to enforce. ITU-style Ironman might be interesting. We would definitely see more true running races. I think Lionel, as a superb runner, could greatly benefit from draft legal Ironman.
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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [CrankyNeck] [ In reply to ]
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CrankyNeck wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Swimmers bitch about wetsuits.

Bikers bitch about drafting.

Runners bitch about aerobars.

Life is never fair. Suck it up buttercup. :)


What a narrow-minded response. Wetsuits aren't illegal if the water is cold enough. Aerobars aren't illegal. Drafting IS illegal. But hey, let's not do anything about it. Let's just allow Ironman racing to become draft-legal bullshit, too. Wait until it gets so bad that the overriding sentiment becomes "Oh well, nothing we can about it now. We'll just have to make drafting legal." What you don't stop, will continue. Calling people buttercups because they complain for valid reasons (and rule-breaking is certainly a valid reason) isn't really fair.

Marshals need to do a better job. If rule changes are needed to increase the distance of the draft zone, so be it. Let's get it done.

Just make drafting legal, as most races already have

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [CrankyNeck] [ In reply to ]
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CrankyNeck wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Swimmers bitch about wetsuits.

Bikers bitch about drafting.

Runners bitch about aerobars.

Life is never fair. Suck it up buttercup. :)


What a narrow-minded response. Wetsuits aren't illegal if the water is cold enough. Aerobars aren't illegal. Drafting IS illegal. But hey, let's not do anything about it. Let's just allow Ironman racing to become draft-legal bullshit, too. Wait until it gets so bad that the overriding sentiment becomes "Oh well, nothing we can about it now. We'll just have to make drafting legal." What you don't stop, will continue. Calling people buttercups because they complain for valid reasons (and rule-breaking is certainly a valid reason) isn't really fair.

Marshals need to do a better job. If rule changes are needed to increase the distance of the draft zone, so be it. Let's get it done.

Lionel is bitching about people riding at the legal 10m distance. As long as you stay that far behind, it is not illegal.

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [znerd] [ In reply to ]
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With respect to ITU...

The brownlee's seem to be pretty adept at blowing apart the bike portion on regular basis...

Flora Duffy has won by separating herself from the field during the bike.

It can be done. Maybe the real issue is that there are fewer athletes strong enough to leave the draft and separate themselves.

"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz
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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [znerd] [ In reply to ]
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once again, he failed to prepare for the demand of that specific course and now complaining about the drafting zone. My experience is that NOT everyone is wanting the 20m rules. The sport as been like this from it s beginning. when we call it non drafting, we mean you are not allowed to ride right behind someone. But there is still some LEGAL interaction allowed like there is on the swim and on the run.

Swimmers live the same dilema.....they dont get to use there weapon as drafting is allow on the swim. Weaker swimmer get to have better swim time then they deserve because of the interaction with faster swimmers. It s the nature of our sport.

in the end, long distance is a semi non drafting format. Some course will have exceptional situation where big group will form and flat and sheltered course will amplify the legal drafting issue. some course will break this dynamic. Pick the right horse for the course.

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [znerd] [ In reply to ]
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Let’s use Josh Amberger as a case study. //

Why would you do that? What is so special about him? Why not Potts, or Rapp, or anyone else? I will tell you why, you and Lionel and trying to taylor make the race to fit a particular skill set and a particular person. The race should be there to find the best triathletes, the strongest and smartest who are having a good day. That is all, and from what I can see they do that quite well.


Sucks to go off the front in the swim by yourself, don't do it. Potts learned that lesson and is a better triathlete for it. Sucks to swim 5 minutes slower than the leaders, get faster and pick up the others like you along the way and form your own group. Blowing by everyone by upping your watts may make you feel better, but it is stupid. How about a group of Sanders, Keinle, Rapp, and 3 or 4 others that are uber bikers who fall off the back in the swim? I would say that would have more firepower than the leaders, slingshoting off the dozens in front of them. What are you going to propose then, slingshotting should be penalized?


I think all of you complaining out there including the athletes are blowing this up out of proportion. Perhaps you are saving a few watts in certain conditions, sometimes nothing. But what is being done and "always" an advantage is mental pacing. Just because 20 guys stay together you all assume everyone is getting a free ride. There is no free ride, and you will know this when later in the race it blows apart and many who were riding to many watts to stay with the group will pay the price for that. When 20 becomes 3 or 4 where is that free ride now? I'll tell you, it was not only not free, most are paying a huge price and gamble to hang with those groups for the first 1/2 of the ride. That's ok too, that is racing, taking chances for greater glory or going down in flames at least trying to do something out of your comfort zone.


Make it 20 meters and basically it will be the same, just way more complicated to have a contested race. Not sure why so many believe that a race should be determined by the guy that time trials all 3 sports the fastest, it has never been that way. I can recall only maybe two races that were true time trials, and even those will pack up out on the road somewhere, just different folks in the groups that if it had been a mass start.


If there is anything to fix it is just enforcing the rules out there a little more aggressively. Put a marshall on the lead TV guys and hold them accountable for getting shots well away from the riders. Put a few more guys in the sin bin for encroaching on a draft zone and not passing, this will widen it out several meters in pratical terms as riders will not cut it close anymore. You would end up with an effective 15 meter zone this way and you don't have to change any rules..


All the whining about so and so athletes has it unfair is really petty. SOunds like Sutton complaining about all the drafting and tactics in ITU racing. The court is laid out, the rules are there, now go and figure out how to beat the other guys within those constraints.
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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [Jonny89] [ In reply to ]
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If the simulation you refer to was the specialized tunnel test. It was done at 8 meters and showed a ~60 watt advantage then they interpolated that there would not be a benefit at ~11.5 meters though with only a very minimal number of test points. We are not criticizing it just that more analysis may be warranted till you can say the optimal distance for no draft effect.

We do see our models quite a bit slower compared to actual in races with athletes in larger packs (with athletes we work with). That being said athletes race by the rules that are established and at least at BBS we try to point out to Pros that work with us strategic places on a course to sit in versus make a break etc. to try to play to an athlete's advantage within the rules. It will be interesting in Kona as the first half of the bike has seen some packs that start to break up with the climb to the turn around then really splinter in the stronger cross winds on the way back.

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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [znerd] [ In reply to ]
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A lot of great points.

I've suggested this before and folks have shot down the idea (probably same people who call pros names like buttercup, shoot down run powermeters, the arm chair engineers, etc), but the technology does exist to measure proximity. Bluetooth can measure proximity semi-dynamically. It needs to be adapted and improved, but I do think that this technology needs to be implemented in races. embed a proximity measuring chip in timing chips, allow it to transmit ant+ and athletes can add a field on their computer (only monitor other chips ahead of your chip and moving in same direction). Race officials gather this information live (Quarq live data integration?) and use it DQ people or to hand out penalties. Test it adequately before implementing.

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
Last edited by: milesthedog: Sep 28, 16 10:33
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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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milesthedog wrote:
A lot of great points.

I've suggested this before and folks have shot down the idea (probably same people who call pros names like buttercup, shoot down run powermeters, the arm chair engineers, etc), but the technology does exist to measure proximity. Bluetooth can measure proximity semi-dynamically. It needs to be adapted and improved, but I do think that this technology needs to be implemented in races. embed a proximity measuring chip in timing chips, allow it to transmit ant+ and athletes can add a field on their computer (only monitor other chips ahead of your chip and moving in said direction). Race officials gather this information live (Quarq live data integration) and use it DQ people or to hand out penalties. Test it adequately before implementing.

you and your rational ideas....shame on you!
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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [znerd] [ In reply to ]
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i agree with him it's supposed to be a solo sport. tim reed did not deserve the win imo sebastian was much stronger he led the bike then backed it up with a run. he is just a better athlete
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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Let’s use Josh Amberger as a case study. //

Why would you do that? What is so special about him? Why not Potts, or Rapp, or anyone else? I will tell you why, you and Lionel and trying to taylor make the race to fit a particular skill set and a particular person. The race should be there to find the best triathletes, the strongest and smartest who are having a good day. That is all, and from what I can see they do that quite well.


Sucks to go off the front in the swim by yourself, don't do it. Potts learned that lesson and is a better triathlete for it. Sucks to swim 5 minutes slower than the leaders, get faster and pick up the others like you along the way and form your own group. Blowing by everyone by upping your watts may make you feel better, but it is stupid. How about a group of Sanders, Keinle, Rapp, and 3 or 4 others that are uber bikers who fall off the back in the swim? I would say that would have more firepower than the leaders, slingshoting off the dozens in front of them. What are you going to propose then, slingshotting should be penalized?


I think all of you complaining out there including the athletes are blowing this up out of proportion. Perhaps you are saving a few watts in certain conditions, sometimes nothing. But what is being done and "always" an advantage is mental pacing. Just because 20 guys stay together you all assume everyone is getting a free ride. There is no free ride, and you will know this when later in the race it blows apart and many who were riding to many watts to stay with the group will pay the price for that. When 20 becomes 3 or 4 where is that free ride now? I'll tell you, it was not only not free, most are paying a huge price and gamble to hang with those groups for the first 1/2 of the ride. That's ok too, that is racing, taking chances for greater glory or going down in flames at least trying to do something out of your comfort zone.


Make it 20 meters and basically it will be the same, just way more complicated to have a contested race. Not sure why so many believe that a race should be determined by the guy that time trials all 3 sports the fastest, it has never been that way. I can recall only maybe two races that were true time trials, and even those will pack up out on the road somewhere, just different folks in the groups that if it had been a mass start.


If there is anything to fix it is just enforcing the rules out there a little more aggressively. Put a marshall on the lead TV guys and hold them accountable for getting shots well away from the riders. Put a few more guys in the sin bin for encroaching on a draft zone and not passing, this will widen it out several meters in pratical terms as riders will not cut it close anymore. You would end up with an effective 15 meter zone this way and you don't have to change any rules..


All the whining about so and so athletes has it unfair is really petty. SOunds like Sutton complaining about all the drafting and tactics in ITU racing. The court is laid out, the rules are there, now go and figure out how to beat the other guys within those constraints.

^^ Bravo!
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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [eggplantOG] [ In reply to ]
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eggplantOG wrote:
tim reed did not deserve the win

so stupid.


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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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Make the swim longer. The swim is c. 10% of an IM, bike c. 55% and run c.35%, so good swimmers are already massively disadvantaged. Longer swim = more gaps into T1 = fewer packs on the bike. Simple! But probably not the answer Lionel Sanders would want to hear ;-)
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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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milesthedog wrote:
A lot of great points.

I've suggested this before and folks have shot down the idea (probably same people who call pros names like buttercup, shoot down run powermeters, the arm chair engineers, etc), but the technology does exist to measure proximity. Bluetooth can measure proximity semi-dynamically. It needs to be adapted and improved, but I do think that this technology needs to be implemented in races. embed a proximity measuring chip in timing chips, allow it to transmit ant+ and athletes can add a field on their computer (only monitor other chips ahead of your chip and moving in same direction). Race officials gather this information live (Quarq live data integration?) and use it DQ people or to hand out penalties. Test it adequately before implementing.

Hmm...I investigated Bluetooth accuracy. It's called a "proximity" measurement for a reason apparently. It's got pretty horrendous accuracy even in perfect conditions. And a triathlon isn't perfect conditions. All sorts of opportunity for multi-path, which is the kryptonite of RF-based localization.

UWB might be better. You can get centimeter-grade accuracy with UWB that's designed expressly for distance measurement, and isn't a re-purposing of a waveform designed to carry information.. Like this BeSpoon module. It's apparently around $50 right now. If it dropped to like $5 it might be cost-effective for the purpose.

But pulling back the zoom lens on this whole idea, if you have to construct like this sophisticated network to enforce just one rule in a race, you might want to re-think what you're doing.
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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [monty] [ In reply to ]
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X2 to this and jonnyo above. This is so tiresome. He's so obviously butthurt that he sucks at swimming. Can you imagine the crying if the swim were proportionately longer than it already is?

This is and has always been the sport and its rules (with small changes along the way). Why is this a surprise to someone who's profession is to race within the confines/rules of this sport? These are the dynamics. This isnt new. Figure it out, you giant crybabies.

Crowie understood this and adapted. And then he won Kona. Funny how that works.

Lionel is attempting to build an argument on sand.

"One Line Robert"
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Re: Lionel Sanders addresses drafting again in latest post [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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Incredible.

"One Line Robert"
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