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Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-)

 
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brandonecpt

May 10, 07 9:38

Post #51 of 811 (6064 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [etocaj] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
You're right, forgot that. Recovery, "harder" workouts, "better" workouts, 100W on the bike, 1-2 min/mi running, what else am I missing?

I know of only one other training tool to make these claims, and it's not legal to have without prescription, right?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08


Frank Day

May 10, 07 9:38

Post #52 of 811 (6065 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [Andrew Coggan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
[reply]
Nah, I sleep like a baby at night - after all, I don't have my livelihood partially riding on the outcome of such an event the way that you do.[/reply]

Maybe not your livelihood (you are probably tenured), but your reputation. You are the one who has said such changes are impossible.
--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks


Frank Day

May 10, 07 9:41

Post #53 of 811 (6055 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [brandonecpt] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
[reply]
You're right, forgot that. Recovery, "harder" workouts, "better" workouts, 100W on the bike, 1-2 min/mi running, what else am I missing?

I know of only one other training tool to make these claims, and it's not legal to have without prescription, right?[/reply]

No, PED's don't even come close to making those claims. about 10% improvement is the best I have ever heard is possible from these. These are way better than PED's in what they do for the athlete and one doesn't have to worry about testing positive (unless one is also using PED's)
--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks


chainpin

May 10, 07 9:42

Post #54 of 811 (6051 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [Frank Day] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
I don't know what is more exciting, this thread, or the lscmidt macroeconomics debacle!!

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



Andrew Coggan

May 10, 07 9:44

Post #55 of 811 (6049 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [Frank Day] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
Maybe not your livelihood (you are probably tenured),

Nope.

In Reply To:
but your reputation.

My reputation seems to be doing just fine, thank you very much.


qcassidy

May 10, 07 9:46

Post #56 of 811 (6042 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [etocaj] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
I don't know what is more exciting, this thread, or the lscmidt macroeconomics debacle!!

QOTD!!!
--------------------------

Team Timex 2013
@ajhodges


brandonecpt

May 10, 07 9:46

Post #57 of 811 (6041 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [Frank Day] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
PED's only show a 10% improvement? Not sure that's true, but maybe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08


Frank Day

May 10, 07 9:53

Post #58 of 811 (6013 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [alvaro] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
[reply]
lies:

morcuera climb is 6,9%, not 8% (not that its important, but it's the first one)

dr. durantez doesn't work for the Spanish federation

and then if you start analizing the data, it's all just plain funny.

the guy that beat him in Navacerrada by two minutes last year was tested in 2006 to have a VO2Max of 65. I've gonne up Morcuera with that guy many times and he always does it in 30 min more or less, going balls out.

With the numbers the author is giving, he should be climbing Morcuera in close to 25 minutes, thats what local Pro Tour riders are doing.

maybe the lab tests are wrong, maybe he's lying, maybe its just lack of rigour, but you can't throw out a bunch of numbers like that and claim that a gyzmo has provoked an incredible, never seen increase in fitmes in a 38 year old guy whos been cicling for 20 years.

my OPINION is: either the data is false, or this guy is using PEDs[/reply]

Ugh, whatever the actual grade of the climb is, have you ever seen a newspaper article without some factual error. That doesn't make them lies, which implies some deliberate intent to decieve.

And who does Dr. Durantz work for? How would you know him if he is a nobody there? Perhaps he works with the Spanish cycling federation, so, again, there is no intent to deceive, so a simple factual error, not a lie.

And, where are the rest of the lies? Funny looking data is simply that. It may not make sense to you as you look at it but this is out of an article on the internet so it has been compressed to fit into a certain amount of space to make a good story. Unless you have all the actual data and know that it is fabricated or falsified in some way all you have is something that doesn't look right to you. Lots of people do not race to their potential. That does not mean the data as reported is wrong.

Anyhow, we are all looking forward to your report of the climb this weekend.

Frank
--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks


alvaro

May 10, 07 10:10

Post #59 of 811 (5973 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [Frank Day] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
dr. durantez is not a nobody here, everybody involved in competitive endurance sports in madrid knows who he is, and the methods he uses


chainpin

May 10, 07 10:15

Post #60 of 811 (5954 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [alvaro] [In reply to] Quote | Reply


"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



MLSimpson

May 10, 07 10:56

Post #61 of 811 (5897 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [Andrew Coggan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Well, to say the least, this thread hasn't been as entertaining as it has been enlightening. You and Frank are fighting like little kids. In my view, both of your reputations are now a little suspect.
There are a few different thoughts about training and yours and Franks are just two of them. There is enough business out there for everyone, I for one can't say that I'll be purchasing anything from you or Frank.

V/R
Matt Simpson


(This post was edited by MLSimpson on May 10, 07 10:57)


brandonecpt

May 10, 07 11:05

Post #62 of 811 (5875 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [MLSimpson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
I said it before, but I don't think Andrew's posts will keep me from buying from him, but Frank's will.

All I have gotten from Frank's side of the argument is "I am right until proven wrong". which from everything I learned from science is completely backward. I always learned it isn't true until it's proven so.

I have gotten from Andrew: hard work = results. Gimmicks aren't necessarily right or wrong, until proven one way or the other (with good data).

Maybe I am taking the posts wrong, but that's what I have gathered so far.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08


Andrew Coggan

May 10, 07 12:51

Post #63 of 811 (5758 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [MLSimpson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
Well, to say the least, this thread hasn't been as entertaining as it has been enlightening. You and Frank are fighting like little kids. In my view, both of your reputations are now a little suspect.
There are a few different thoughts about training and yours and Franks are just two of them. There is enough business out there for everyone, I for one can't say that I'll be purchasing anything from you or Frank.

First, I don't know why you say that "...we're fighting like little kids...", as (at least IMO)the tone of this discussion has actually been rather civil (esp. by Internet standards!).

Second, regardless of any opinion you have formed from this discussion, you wouldn't be purchasing anything from me because unlike Frank, I don't have anything to sell (unless you need a Zipp 404 tubular front wheel w/ Veloflex Record tire, that is).


elund

May 10, 07 13:01

Post #64 of 811 (5727 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [Andrew Coggan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
I don't have anything to sell (unless you need a Zipp 404 tubular front wheel w/ Veloflex Record tire, that is).
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
How much faster will I be with this setup?


Frank Day

May 10, 07 13:03

Post #65 of 811 (5721 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [alvaro] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
[reply]
dr. durantez is not a nobody here, everybody involved in competitive endurance sports in madrid knows who he is, and the methods he uses[/reply]

a fact or two please.
--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks


Andrew Coggan

May 10, 07 13:05

Post #66 of 811 (5713 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [elund] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
I don't have anything to sell (unless you need a Zipp 404 tubular front wheel w/ Veloflex Record tire, that is).
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
How much faster will I be with this setup?
Fast enough to be national champion?


I am the walrus

May 10, 07 13:06

Post #67 of 811 (5708 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [Andrew Coggan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
650c or 700c?


I am the walrus

May 10, 07 13:06

Post #68 of 811 (5699 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [I am the walrus] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Oh. will your 404 cut my lawn, too?


Andrew Coggan

May 10, 07 13:07

Post #69 of 811 (5696 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [I am the walrus] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
650c or 700c?

700 c.

(My apologies to everyone for discussing this here rather than on the Classifieds forum - I'm only answering questions.)


elund

May 10, 07 13:08

Post #70 of 811 (5684 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [Andrew Coggan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"Fast enough to be national champion? "

Thats great cause I done even own a bike anymore. If I win the national championship I should be able to get sponsored.




chainpin

May 10, 07 13:09

Post #71 of 811 (5681 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [Andrew Coggan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Seriously, lets get back to the topic at hand. I want to know more about these "methods".



:^)

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



tim_sleepless

May 10, 07 13:13

Post #72 of 811 (5666 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [Andrew Coggan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Quote:
you wouldn't be purchasing anything from me because unlike Frank, I don't have anything to sell (unless you need a Zipp 404 tubular front wheel w/ Veloflex Record tire, that is).

...but, but... I just bought your book...!!! Just because of this thread..!


Andrew Coggan

May 10, 07 13:32

Post #73 of 811 (5629 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [tim_sleepless] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
Quote:
you wouldn't be purchasing anything from me because unlike Frank, I don't have anything to sell (unless you need a Zipp 404 tubular front wheel w/ Veloflex Record tire, that is).
...but, but... I just bought your book...!!! Just because of this thread..!

VeloPress will be happy to know that, as they are really the ones who make all the money...me, I haven't made enough yet to even buy some of Frank's cranks!! (Why do you think I'm trying to sell that Zipp wheel? <g>)


CLA

May 10, 07 15:27

Post #74 of 811 (5908 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [Andrew Coggan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Actually, there's nothing in the Results section of Ed's paper that is unbelievable, nor are the hypotheses he puts forth in the Discussion implausible. Thus, the only valid criticism one might possibly have of the paper is that it was too speculative - but that has to do with how you choose to interpret the data, not the data themselves. In contrast, the data in the pezcyclingnews.com article are questionable.
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The concerns are that there appears to be alot of 'assumed' and 'estimated' data. The conclusions in the paper (ie increase mech efficiency of 8% and relative efficiency of 18%) are somewhat extreme, so with such speculative data, and the fact that scientists and readers here are so critical with ensuring correct scientific methodology, it's surprising that it is often taken as truth. Probably not fair to compare to the data at hand in this thread though. The conclusions made were obvioulsy the only way current scientific methods, or at least those available to Coyle, could explain LA's form. I agree that it was certainly worthy of publishing, just as the Indurain hour record case study was in the same journal, but criticised by some. Ed Coyle has certainly earned the right to publish such a paper and make speculations as such.


CLA

May 10, 07 15:32

Post #75 of 811 (5899 views)
Re: Liar, liar, pants on fire? ;-) [etocaj] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Didn't Coyle rebut the claims made that his Ergometer wasn't calibrated, among other things. I'm curious, what is it about the data that is fishy in your view, or, for those in "the know"?
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see above to AC: Issues regarding the quality/source of the data (ie estimates and assumptions), and the data are quite extreme. Lets remember that LA was no crap heap pre-cancer, so massive changes are just not expected and can reasonably be questioned.

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