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Re: LetsRun.com on Lukas Verzbicas [longmojw190] [ In reply to ]
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LV has said his family encouraged him to stay at OU, but in the end he made his own mind up.

Styrrell
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Re: LetsRun.com on Lukas Verzbicas [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
1. The precedent the this has set for triathlon in the U.S. ( few seem to understand that this is a key issue)

I'm surprised this hasn't been talked about more. He is far and away one of the most hyped and talked about hs runners in recent years, and for him to choose triathlon before college is absolutely unprecedented. It is huge for a high profile runner like him to 'turn to the dark side' - and in such a controversial manner. While he is catching a ton of flak for the timing - I think his decision may ultimately give the sport some legitimacy amongst highschool and collegiate runners, who may be encouraged to turn to the sport sooner than they may have otherwise. The only other time I've seen triathlon mentioned on letsrun was when LV won worlds this summer, and when Sean Jefferson (former NCAA mile champ) left the oregon track club and started races tris professionally.

In recent years, there's obviously been been a number of great swimmers or runners who've turned to triathlon when their hopes of heading to the Olympics in their respective sports became unrealistic after college, and as Dan points out in the article on the front page, most of the US's top performing ITU athletes follow that model. That model does work, and I think USAT should continue to seek out those athletes, but they also need to work to keep some of the most promising talent already in the sport, in the sport - as the sharks/cheetahs all have the uphill battle of learning a second and third sport (or relearning at the very least, having missed 4+ years). The exception (and anomoly) is of course Gwen Jorgenson, who swam AND ran at Wisco and is one of the best pure distance runners in the country. LV is considerably younger than Gwen, so I don't think we'll see the same rapid progression (turning pro in her first race, and winning a world cup and qualifying for the Olympics 14 months after mounting a bicycle for the first time), but I do think people will be surprised how rapidly he rises to the top of the sport (assuming he stays healthy). Rare talents like that are few and far between, but when an athlete comes to triathlon from the top of another sport (particularly running, where the depth of talent is larger than any other), they have the potential to make an enormous impact. In addition to hoping that he himself has a positive impact on the US's ITU prowess, I also hope it encourages further development programs for talented athletes.

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Re: LetsRun.com on Lukas Verzbicas [snackchair] [ In reply to ]
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a great athlete can MAKE an event a big deal, with a great performance.

a gold in triathlon in the USA may not be a big deal now, but if an american wins gold in spectacular fashion with high drama, it could become a big deal.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Re: LetsRun.com on Lukas Verzbicas [cjathey] [ In reply to ]
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You said: "Triathlon's getting more competitive by the day. I'd say that the gold medal in triathlon has a lot of worth and requires a ton of hard work to get there. While you might say it doesn't equate to the longer distance running events in terms of worth, I disagree. Having run competitively for 6 years I met many very successful, top level(at least region-wide) runners. Of those runners several admit that the training required in triathlon is about equal if not harder than the professional running scene. To compare my collegiate training schedule as a d1 athlete to triathlon; I ran about 60 miles a week with about an hour of strength. Maybe 10 hours total for the week. For triathlon that number is nearly double, and I would say the dedication needed is also more than running"

You are confusing training load, with overall competitiveness. Just because some triathletes train more than marathoners, does not mean that the talent pool in triathlon is as deep.

Running is simple, inexpensive and accessible and open to the entire world. The same is not true of triathlon. I can't think of any individual sport that identifies and develops talent better and more globally than running. I suspect there are extremely few people out there that have the innate ability to be world class, that are not competing in the sport. The same likely cannot be said of most other sports.

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Re: LetsRun.com on Lukas Verzbicas [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
a great athlete can MAKE an event a big deal, with a great performance.

a gold in triathlon in the USA may not be a big deal now, but if an american wins gold in spectacular fashion with high drama, it could become a big deal.

Good point. It could be something like what this did for rally in the US. Hardly anyone even knew what it was before that moment, now all the kids a wrecking their Subarus. Of course they also think Block and Pastrana are the best drivers in the world. . .

--------------------------------------------------------

It seemed like a good idea at the time. . .
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Re: LetsRun.com on Lukas Verzbicas [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:


Face it, he took the easy way out. He ran 40-45 miles a week and expected to compete at D1 on talent alone. And he got his butt handed to him. In my opinion, he completely underestimated just how good these D1 runners are, and it appears to me many of his supporters are taking the exact same approach to his tri hopes.

We're talking about the same kid here right? The one that broke 4 minutes for the mile, ran 8:29 for two miles and beat all the top runners in the nation two years running at the XC Nationals? He had two off races for his first two college races and you are writing him off completely as a runner?


40-45 a week is plenty for world class 1500/3000 runners. Not for 8-10K. Not even close. Basically, he ran half of what he should have.

I'm not writing him off as a runner, especially at the 1500/3000. However, 10K is a different beast altogether. He hasn't shown anything yet at that distance, and many are anointing him the next great ITU superstar. Running a 30 flat in a tri is a feat very few GOOD 10K runners can accomplish. The good ITU guys are freaks. I see no evidence yet that LV is one of them. I'm not writing him off, but I'm not annointing him as the next coming either.

And I'm pissed at the way he punked his team. And he hasn't apologized so I think he deserves a few lumps.
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Re: LetsRun.com on Lukas Verzbicas [longmojw190] [ In reply to ]
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longmojw190 wrote:
Actually, Oregon would've made it in to NCAAs as an at-large team based upon their 10 wins. And it makes no sense to say that Oregon should've foreseen this. LV came off what I think was the best year for a high school runner in America. He made a commitment to Oregon. And Fleck is right, he let down the most storied collegiate running program in the world.

Fleck is also right that this is good news for the sport of triathlon. LV is an incredible talent, whether it is in triathlon or running. I think he'll have success at the next level (although probably not in 2012). Triathlon should be happy that LV has returned to this sport...just not in the way that he did.

After reading the article about LV stepfather coaching at the Elite Tri Academy, I had one question. Didn't LV parents encourage him to stay at Oregon? If this is the case and his stepfather encouraged him to stay, isn't it strange that others in the Elite Tri Academy encouraged him to leave. Seems like a weird situation. I apologize if this is not factual...just gave it a quick read through this morning.

I agree completely with your first and last paragraphs. His teammates especially would not have seen this coming. They've taken the high road and wished him well, but they can't be the slightest bit happy about this.

And yes, something seems weird about what is going on in Colorado Springs with regards to this.
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Re: LetsRun.com on Lukas Verzbicas [Green Barf] [ In reply to ]
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I gotta agree w/ GB... don't care how good he is or could/will be in Tri, that's utterly beside the point. If it were my kid, I'd tell him he made a deal and bailing on it with only a couple weeks left and the biggest meet(s) of the season coming up is a sorry way to represent the family. Yeah, yeah, we don't make the same choices at 18 that we make at 38 or 58, sure, but he's a legal adult which is old enough to start being held accountable for shit like voting and military service...

What would all his apologists say if he joined the Army and decided after less than a year "Hey, I really appreciate the opportunity and all, but I'm walking away to pursure my true calling..." Uh, sorry kid. I know, not all contracts are binding/enforced to the same extent and a UO/NCAA scholarship isn't exactly the same level as the Feds/military, but the principle isn't really different. Again, if it were my kid (and I do have one in HS, so not THAT far off) I'd tell him he F'ed up to be so brazenly me-first about his commitment even if it'll work out better for him. Really, in the long run, how much would it have cost him to finish the season and THEN bail so they could just recycle his scholarship the following year (which happens all the time in college sports and none of us would have called him out for).
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Re: LetsRun.com on Lukas Verzbicas [Green Barf] [ In reply to ]
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Green Barf wrote:
Fleck wrote:


Face it, he took the easy way out. He ran 40-45 miles a week and expected to compete at D1 on talent alone. And he got his butt handed to him. In my opinion, he completely underestimated just how good these D1 runners are, and it appears to me many of his supporters are taking the exact same approach to his tri hopes.

We're talking about the same kid here right? The one that broke 4 minutes for the mile, ran 8:29 for two miles and beat all the top runners in the nation two years running at the XC Nationals? He had two off races for his first two college races and you are writing him off completely as a runner?



40-45 a week is plenty for world class 1500/3000 runners. Not for 8-10K. Not even close. Basically, he ran half of what he should have.

I'm not writing him off as a runner, especially at the 1500/3000. However, 10K is a different beast altogether. He hasn't shown anything yet at that distance, and many are anointing him the next great ITU superstar. Running a 30 flat in a tri is a feat very few GOOD 10K runners can accomplish. The good ITU guys are freaks. I see no evidence yet that LV is one of them. I'm not writing him off, but I'm not annointing him as the next coming either.

And I'm pissed at the way he punked his team. And he hasn't apologized so I think he deserves a few lumps.


40 to 45 a week is pathetically low mileage and will get you no-where on the world scene. Any world class runner that tells you they only run that much is talking crap.

He (LV) has the speed. Stamina is easy. He's got the potential just has to do the training. 10k isn't going to be an issue for a sub 4 minute miler. One of my mates has a 3:59PB and 28:00 10k road. As I say, once you've got the speed, the stamina is easy.

I support athletes doing whatever they choose without any loyalty anymore - because no-one is loyal to them. Not least the college system doesn't seem to have the athletes interests at heart anyway.

His loyalty lies in doing what is best for his own goals, dreams, financial and competitive future at all times. He's number 1 in his book and I'd support that path.

As for the carry on on Lets Run - what a bunch of tossers. Screw them.
Last edited by: The Real Animal: Nov 15, 11 12:50
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Re: LetsRun.com on Lukas Verzbicas [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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TheGuardian, I agree wholeheartedly.

To the poster whom you quoted, cjathey, I'd be really curious to know who these top level division one xc runners who run 60 mpw and do one hour of strength a week.

In reality, most top Division 1 teams are doing much more. For example, U. of Michigan runners under Coach Gibby are running between 90-110 mpw in addition to several hours of weightlifting and drills. Portland, is also a high mileage program. I know this from having close friends on these teams. Look up Josh McDougal's old running logs. He was running 100+ mpw at paces few can dream of, running them mostly in singles.Most successful Division 3 programs are doing more volume than this.

However, to compare triathlon training and running training is comparing apples and oranges. Running many miles is much tougher on the body than triathlon training, because, the specificity is more broad. This doesn't mean that one is easier than the other. Personally, I find triathlon to be the harder sport but that's because I'm a poor swimmer.

Additionally, I would say that it's an athlete's unique physiology that makes them suited for a particular distance. Despite having run 3:46, there is and never was any chance of Alan Webb, or El Guerrouj for that matter running anywhere near the 10k world record of 26:17. They are different energy systems. That said, and to bring this back to LV, he has shown great range. For those interested in methods of comparing runners objectively, I'd encourage people to investigate Bill Meylan's speed rating system.

http://tullyrunners.com/Articles.htm

I'll explain this poorly but runners are given a numerical value, their speed rating, which compare three things, finish in relation to other individual runners of known ability, finish time on a race course of known speed, especially when the speed is known relative to other race courses
and the quality of the race itself in relation to other races. In general, speed ratings are pretty reliable. LV, recorded a 207 at Footlocker and a 203 at NXN. While not an indicator of where he may finish in an 8k or 10k, it shows that his ability to run well in cross country is a fact. For comparison, Chris Solinsky recorded a 212 when he won Footlocker as a senior and when AJ Acosta won he ran 207.

Personally, I think that if LV stays healthy and focused, his ability to run a quality 10k will not be the issue. His biggest hurdle will be making sure he is in position after the swim and bike.
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Re: LetsRun.com on Lukas Verzbicas [Green Barf] [ In reply to ]
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Very few world class runners at 1500 to 3000 get by on 40-45 miles per week. Maybe in their off season and peak racing, but the rest of the year (fall and winter base phase, spring build up?) Get real.

And for 10000 being a 'different beast' that's kind of a yes and no. It just takes some time, but Verzbicas ran 14:06 indoors for the US high school record last spring. He had a remarkable running year, and to top it off with a WJC in triathlon. It's no wonder he was flat in the two races he ran this fall. In hindsight a redshirt season might have been the wisest thing to do.

If he does focus on triathlon, then we may well have seen most of the best of him. He'll improve at 5K and 10K no doubt, but who knows whether he'll improve to sub 13:30 sub 28, which is where he'd have been if he'd stuck with running for another year or two; and late-post college career who knows? The only thing for certain is now we won't know.

Green Barf wrote:
Fleck wrote:


Face it, he took the easy way out. He ran 40-45 miles a week and expected to compete at D1 on talent alone. And he got his butt handed to him. In my opinion, he completely underestimated just how good these D1 runners are, and it appears to me many of his supporters are taking the exact same approach to his tri hopes.

We're talking about the same kid here right? The one that broke 4 minutes for the mile, ran 8:29 for two miles and beat all the top runners in the nation two years running at the XC Nationals? He had two off races for his first two college races and you are writing him off completely as a runner?



40-45 a week is plenty for world class 1500/3000 runners. Not for 8-10K. Not even close. Basically, he ran half of what he should have.

I'm not writing him off as a runner, especially at the 1500/3000. However, 10K is a different beast altogether. He hasn't shown anything yet at that distance, and many are anointing him the next great ITU superstar. Running a 30 flat in a tri is a feat very few GOOD 10K runners can accomplish. The good ITU guys are freaks. I see no evidence yet that LV is one of them. I'm not writing him off, but I'm not annointing him as the next coming either.

And I'm pissed at the way he punked his team. And he hasn't apologized so I think he deserves a few lumps.
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Re: LetsRun.com on Lukas Verzbicas [SeasonsChange] [ In reply to ]
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Re: LetsRun.com on Lukas Verzbicas [The Real Animal] [ In reply to ]
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The Real Animal wrote:

40 to 45 a week is pathetically low mileage and will get you no-where on the world scene. Any world class runner that tells you they only run that much is talking crap.

Well, that's what LV ran over the summer. As I said, only about half of what he should. He can get away with that kind of low mileage doing 1600/3200, but why he ran that before D1 XC is beyond me. But I thought he was No 1 in your book... Tosser.

The Real Animal wrote:
He (LV) has the speed. Stamina is easy. He's got the potential just has to do the training. 10k isn't going to be an issue for a sub 4 minute miler. One of my mates has a 3:59PB and 28:00 10k road. As I say, once you've got the speed, the stamina is easy.

n of 1. Yawn. By that extension, Usain Bolt should take up tri. Tosser.

The Real Animal wrote:
I support athletes doing whatever they choose without any loyalty anymore - because no-one is loyal to them. Not least the college system doesn't seem to have the athletes interests at heart anyway.

I guess this is how triathletes think. Selfish bunch of tossers. The college system might not have the athletes' best interests at heart, but LV had 6 teammates counting on him, and he bailed rather than sticking out the remaining 2. I think he was afraid to run Nationals and get his butt handed to him. Methinks the tosser is LV.

The Real Animal wrote:
His loyalty lies in doing what is best for his own goals, dreams, financial and competitive future at all times. He's number 1 in his book and I'd support that path.

As for the carry on on Lets Run - what a bunch of tossers. Screw them.
Supporting the attitude that it's ok to bail on your mates makes you the tosser, tosser.
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Re: LetsRun.com on Lukas Verzbicas [longmojw190] [ In reply to ]
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longmojw190 wrote:
TheGuardian, I agree wholeheartedly.

To the poster whom you quoted, cjathey, I'd be really curious to know who these top level division one xc runners who run 60 mpw and do one hour of strength a week.

In reality, most top Division 1 teams are doing much more. For example, U. of Michigan runners under Coach Gibby are running between 90-110 mpw in addition to several hours of weightlifting and drills. Portland, is also a high mileage program. I know this from having close friends on these teams. Look up Josh McDougal's old running logs. He was running 100+ mpw at paces few can dream of, running them mostly in singles.Most successful Division 3 programs are doing more volume than this.

However, to compare triathlon training and running training is comparing apples and oranges. Running many miles is much tougher on the body than triathlon training, because, the specificity is more broad. This doesn't mean that one is easier than the other. Personally, I find triathlon to be the harder sport but that's because I'm a poor swimmer.

Additionally, I would say that it's an athlete's unique physiology that makes them suited for a particular distance. Despite having run 3:46, there is and never was any chance of Alan Webb, or El Guerrouj for that matter running anywhere near the 10k world record of 26:17. They are different energy systems. That said, and to bring this back to LV, he has shown great range. For those interested in methods of comparing runners objectively, I'd encourage people to investigate Bill Meylan's speed rating system.

http://tullyrunners.com/Articles.htm

I'll explain this poorly but runners are given a numerical value, their speed rating, which compare three things, finish in relation to other individual runners of known ability, finish time on a race course of known speed, especially when the speed is known relative to other race courses
and the quality of the race itself in relation to other races. In general, speed ratings are pretty reliable. LV, recorded a 207 at Footlocker and a 203 at NXN. While not an indicator of where he may finish in an 8k or 10k, it shows that his ability to run well in cross country is a fact. For comparison, Chris Solinsky recorded a 212 when he won Footlocker as a senior and when AJ Acosta won he ran 207.

Personally, I think that if LV stays healthy and focused, his ability to run a quality 10k will not be the issue. His biggest hurdle will be making sure he is in position after the swim and bike.

What he said, except I still will sit back and wait to see what kind of 10K he can run off the bike.
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Re: LetsRun.com on Lukas Verzbicas [SeasonsChange] [ In reply to ]
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Any way you look at it, he is an awesome runner and this brings some excitement to the sport. I coached against him in IL. and he was pretty incredible. I had my fastest miler I ever coached and I didn't run him in the mile because I knew he would take a top 3 and Lucas would beat him by 10 sec. (My guy ended up first in the 400 2nd in the 800). I remember one time AFTER the CC meet his dad pulled him out on the track and he ran a killer interval set.
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Re: LetsRun.com on Lukas Verzbicas [longmojw190] [ In reply to ]
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longmojw190 wrote:
TheGuardian, I agree wholeheartedly.

To the poster whom you quoted, cjathey, I'd be really curious to know who these top level division one xc runners who run 60 mpw and do one hour of strength a week.

In reality, most top Division 1 teams are doing much more. For example, U. of Michigan runners under Coach Gibby are running between 90-110 mpw in addition to several hours of weightlifting and drills. Portland, is also a high mileage program. I know this from having close friends on these teams. Look up Josh McDougal's old running logs. He was running 100+ mpw at paces few can dream of, running them mostly in singles.Most successful Division 3 programs are doing more volume than this.

However, to compare triathlon training and running training is comparing apples and oranges. Running many miles is much tougher on the body than triathlon training, because, the specificity is more broad. This doesn't mean that one is easier than the other. Personally, I find triathlon to be the harder sport but that's because I'm a poor swimmer.

Additionally, I would say that it's an athlete's unique physiology that makes them suited for a particular distance. Despite having run 3:46, there is and never was any chance of Alan Webb, or El Guerrouj for that matter running anywhere near the 10k world record of 26:17. They are different energy systems. That said, and to bring this back to LV, he has shown great range. For those interested in methods of comparing runners objectively, I'd encourage people to investigate Bill Meylan's speed rating system.

http://tullyrunners.com/Articles.htm

I'll explain this poorly but runners are given a numerical value, their speed rating, which compare three things, finish in relation to other individual runners of known ability, finish time on a race course of known speed, especially when the speed is known relative to other race courses
and the quality of the race itself in relation to other races. In general, speed ratings are pretty reliable. LV, recorded a 207 at Footlocker and a 203 at NXN. While not an indicator of where he may finish in an 8k or 10k, it shows that his ability to run well in cross country is a fact. For comparison, Chris Solinsky recorded a 212 when he won Footlocker as a senior and when AJ Acosta won he ran 207.

Personally, I think that if LV stays healthy and focused, his ability to run a quality 10k will not be the issue. His biggest hurdle will be making sure he is in position after the swim and bike.

Our entire team was on that plan. I wish you had read more clearly when I said to compare MY own experience from d1 to triathlon. I didn't say the other runners I know are running 60 mpw.
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Re: LetsRun.com on Lukas Verzbicas [Green Barf] [ In reply to ]
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The Real Animal wrote:
40 to 45 a week is pathetically low mileage and will get you no-where on the world scene. Any world class runner that tells you they only run that much is talking crap.
Well, that's what LV ran over the summer. As I said, only about half of what he should. He can get away with that kind of low mileage doing 1600/3200, but why he ran that before D1 XC is beyond me. But I thought he was No 1 in your book... Tosser.

LV is a great high school runner, he isn't yet a "world class runner" what he ran and what a world class runner runs are different. The why he ran that before D1 XC isn't a secret, he was traing for and won the Junior tri WC.

Styrrell
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