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Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview
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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I heard this on the news this am. The only thing that I can say is that at least he is honest. That is about it. Of course he would do it again. Because if he didn't he would be Lance who. He would not be rich and he would not be with his latest gorgeous young blonde.
Sick twist. But again at least he is honest. It just confirms that he has no scruples. And of course he doesn't care that he brought shame on his family and children.
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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [Ty] [ In reply to ]
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you must have the same opinion of every NFL, NHL, NBA, MLB......etc player. A product of the culture that existed and it's too bad that they can't find anyone clean to give those tour victories to.....
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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [Ty] [ In reply to ]
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Plain and simple! Lance is a complete "jackass"! He destroyed several people in his attempt to keep his secret! I am stunned at how many people still idolize this guy and think he walks on water!

Hook Em' Horns
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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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Give them all to Riis. He's apparently untouchable.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [broncotw] [ In reply to ]
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There's two things to keep separate in your mind, though few manage to.

1. Lance was a doper.
2. Lance was an asshole.

Lance is saying he would dope again if it were 1995 all over again. This is understandable. He became rich and famous and idolized like few ever before. He slept with rock and movie stars. You can take the fame and money away, but you can't take the memories away. And, if he hadn't doped, he would be just another roughneck working the oil and gas industry in Texas.

Now, if Lance were to say that he were to be an asshole again, that would be a real shame. Now, probably, in reality, he would. At each point he fought aggressively and successfully to keep his secret buried. If he hadn't been such an asshole, perhaps it never would have held out until 2012.
Last edited by: kny: Jan 27, 15 12:17
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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [kny] [ In reply to ]
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I saw this interview and was going to start a thread. I've been "studying" cycling - specifically the history around the TDF over the past few months. The cycling fraternity, the club of the peleton, and drugs have a long storied history, well before Lance showed up.

Lance vehemently defended the cycling "stage" he performed on. It almost felt like a WWE smack-down style of show.

The bigger issue I see is how that partnership of corporate vs athlete created such a dysfunctional chain of events. The athletes are almost corroborating victims. I think if you dig deeper into that power differential you'd see that the issues transcend Lance, or any other individual that may pop up for discussion. It's easy to paint Lance as a focal point Villain. But as an high performance athlete, in that situation, can you really say you would have completely opted out?

The bandwagon of:
- doctors
-officials
-sponsors
-fans and wannabes
-politicians
-team managers & support crew
- finally the athletes

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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I've struggled with my feelings about Lance over the past 2 years and all I can say is I'm still as torn. While it's pretty well known that basically the entire FOP was doping during the 1990-2005 time frame others will argue it pre-dates that. He also was the doper who suffered the most to win those titles. While I agree doping has been around, the pedigree in which it was executed was obviously far more superior to any other era. As somebody with a "winners" mindset I don't blame him for initially doping. I think many athletes consider it and some follow through. I can excuse the dope usage to a degree where I would allow him to run a marathon.

What I can't excuse is his bulldozer attitude towards anybody who would try and challenge him on the topic. It's no different than an organized crime syndicate who kills off their liabilities with brutality. Sure nobody was killed but some careers definitely were. He also simultaneously lived like a rock star and collected millions upon millions of dollars. That in itself is very villainous to say the least. Would I dope again if I were him? Without hesitation! I'd just hope he'd accept when he was caught and take it like a man who owns his decision, not one full of excuses.

------
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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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Some good points.

I have no inherent 'moral' problem with Lance cheating, as 99% of his competitors at the time were also doing it. Not that I support cheating by any stretch, it makes for a stupid and unwatchable sport, but average people (those with average personalities) will often cheat when it is expedient and when lots of money hang in the balance, unfortunately.

But lance did one thing that most of the others did not. He went out of his way to intimidate and threaten those that were trying to take a different path. This puts him in a special class: bullies. And bullies use their actions to hide a hidden streak of cowardice. That's what makes lance different.


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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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SharkFM wrote:
I saw this interview and was going to start a thread. I've been "studying" cycling - specifically the history around the TDF over the past few months. The cycling fraternity, the club of the peleton, and drugs have a long storied history, well before Lance showed up.

Lance vehemently defended the cycling "stage" he performed on. It almost felt like a WWE smack-down style of show.

The bigger issue I see is how that partnership of corporate vs athlete created such a dysfunctional chain of events. The athletes are almost corroborating victims. I think if you dig deeper into that power differential you'd see that the issues transcend Lance, or any other individual that may pop up for discussion. It's easy to paint Lance as a focal point Villain. But as an high performance athlete, in that situation, can you really say you would have completely opted out?

The bandwagon of:
- doctors
-officials
-sponsors
-fans and wannabes
-politicians
-team managers & support crew
- finally the athletes

Hit the nail on the head for me.

.




Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [kny] [ In reply to ]
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He does say in the interview that 1) he doesn't regret doping 2) he does regret being an asshole



kny wrote:
There's two things to keep separate in your mind, though few manage to.

1. Lance was a doper.
2. Lance was an asshole.

Lance is saying he would dope again if it were 1995 all over again. This is understandable. He became rich and famous and idolized like few ever before. He slept with rock and movie stars. You can take the fame and money away, but you can't take the memories away. And, if he hadn't doped, he would be just another roughneck working the oil and gas industry in Texas.

Now, if Lance were to say that he were to be an asshole again, that would be a real shame. Now, probably, in reality, he would. At each point he fought aggressively and successfully to keep his secret buried. If he hadn't been such an asshole, perhaps it never would have held out until 2012.
Last edited by: sp1ke: Jan 27, 15 13:15
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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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I would say in this regard he is quite similar to many people of power. Donald Trump, Steve Jobs, many politicians have done the very same to opposing people. In fact, there are few I can think of that got to the top by being nice to competitors. The funny thing is that the Treks, Carmichaels, Giros, and all sponsors who benefited greatly still move forward with no backlash......sad.


DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Some good points.

I have no inherent 'moral' problem with Lance cheating, as 99% of his competitors at the time were also doing it. Not that I support cheating by any stretch, it makes for a stupid and unwatchable sport, but average people (those with average personalities) will often cheat when it is expedient and when lots of money hang in the balance, unfortunately.

But lance did one thing that most of the others did not. He went out of his way to intimidate and threaten those that were trying to take a different path. This puts him in a special class: bullies. And bullies use their actions to hide a hidden streak of cowardice. That's what makes lance different.


.
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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I still think he is a pretty shitty individual and shouldn't be recognised as the winner of those TDFs. That said, I'd have no problem with him running a marathon for funsies. Taking away his titles is one thing but cutting him off from every sports community forever seems a little harsh.
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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [cshowe80] [ In reply to ]
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cshowe80 wrote:
... He also was the doper who suffered the most to win those titles. While I agree doping has been around, the pedigree in which it was executed was obviously far more superior to any other era. As somebody with a "winners" mindset I don't blame him for initially doping. I think many athletes consider it and some follow through.


There were many athletes who chose not to dope and therefore either quit professional cycling or languished in the back. Some of those guys could have had careers and made money if the others didn't dope. So it was not just dopers racing dopers. They were stealing money, careers and memories from honest athletes.

cshowe80 wrote:
...What I can't excuse is his bulldozer attitude towards anybody who would try and challenge him on the topic. It's no different than an organized crime syndicate who kills off their liabilities with brutality. Sure nobody was killed but some careers definitely were. He also simultaneously lived like a rock star and collected millions upon millions of dollars. That in itself is very villainous to say the least. Would I dope again if I were him? Without hesitation! I'd just hope he'd accept when he was caught and take it like a man who owns his decision, not one full of excuses.


His aggressive kill or be killed attitude is why he was successful in hiding his doping in the first place. He cannot go back and dope but be a really nice guy and expect it all to turn out the same way for him. But I have to say that living like a rock star and earning millions of dollars is not "in itself very villainous". They WAY he did it was villainous.

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Last edited by: RowToTri: Jan 27, 15 13:25
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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [sp1ke] [ In reply to ]
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sp1ke wrote:
He does say in the interview that 1) he doesn't regret doping 2) he does regret being an asshole

He could not have succeeded at hiding 1) if he did not also do 2). So he is still full of shit.

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www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Heard it yesterday on BBC. The limited interview when asked if he'd dope garnered the conditional response (paraphrasing) of "If racing today no because I wouldn't have to" and "If racing in the same time then yes". I have no problem with that. That's brutal honesty coming through, IMO. I guess he could have taken the high ground and said "hell no I wouldn't dope" but he was merely being honest in his answer. In the context of the 90s when so many top riders lined up at the start doped up, it was either dope like the others and have a job or deliver pizzas. I do hope cycilng is cleaner than ever, and with the better checks and balances the risk/reward today is nowhere what is was in the 90s and early 2000s. There are plenty of "clean" riders now, so to stay on an equal playing field it means you don't have to dope.

It was interesting, but that is a bygone era now. I've moved on to the current generation.
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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
There were many athletes who chose not to dope and therefore either quit professional cycling or languished in the back. Some of those guys could have had careers and made money if the others didn't dope. So it was not just dopers racing dopers. They were stealing money, careers and memories from honest athletes.

And if pigs could fly or the sky was red or the moon was made from a different king of cheese then those cyclists coulda been contenders.

Any one of the top riders could have not doped and it would not have made a damned bit of difference because there were hundreds or thousands of people willing to do what was necessary to step into his place. They would not have even had to start after getting a pro contract; the amateur ranks in Italy and Spain were chock full of riders using EPO. Individuals riders did not cheat come poor schmuck out of his chance to ride the Tour. A systemic problem that was facilitated by the UCI did.
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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [tigermilk] [ In reply to ]
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tigermilk wrote:
I've moved on to the current generation.


Hard to say when the current TDF winner's team is full of dopers and managed by one of the biggest dopers of them all...
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana-accused-of-systematic-doping


It's just a matter of time before the doping "arms race" will begin again.
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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
But lance did one thing that most of the others did not. He went out of his way to intimidate and threaten those that were trying to take a different path.

Uh. No. Bassons has said one brief exchange with Armstrong had no affect on him and was not the reason he left cycling. It was the treatment from his own teammates that showed him how useless it was to continue. In fact, ostracizing those who did not fit in was standard operating procedure throughout the peloton.

Armstrong had a base response mechanism: He attacked those who attacked him. There are many who enjoyed their feuds with Armstrong and kept poking the bear to make them continue. Check out Betsy Andreu; every time an article appears about Armstrong she hounds the press so she can attack him in the media. Now those people are wrapping themselves in a bogus cloak of truth rather than admitting why they were feuding with Armstrong in the first place.
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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [Arch Stanton] [ In reply to ]
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I am no expert, but from my reading, lance's retaliation and intimidation hounded far far more people than just Bassons. And I am not saying that no one else ever did this, but that lance did it far more extensively and aggressively than anyone else in cycling.

But this is all probably a dead horse ...



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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
I am no expert, but from my reading, lance's retaliation and intimidation hounded far far more people than just Bassons. And I am not saying that no one else ever did this, but that lance did it far more extensively and aggressively than anyone else in cycling.

My point would be, "So what?" There is no WADA rule against being an asshole yet many people seem to think there is and penalties should be harsher if the public judges someone to be less than a nice guy.

The behavior of those supposed victims of Armstrong after he was exposed has shown them for what they are and it is a far cry from the innocent people on a quest to protect truth, justice, and the American Way that their version of events would have you believe.

Look at LeMond. It turns out that doping had nothing to do with his feud with Armstrong. He has never said one word about Kelly, Hinault, Fignon, Indurain, Roche, Rooks, etc. These days he is praising dopers and hanging out with riders whose doping cost him wins. According to him he only spoke out about Armstrong because he was concerned Armstrong might be doping. This is bullshit. He would have us believe that he was unaware that every Tour winner (other than him of course) had doped. He raced at a time when doping was even more of a wild west than when Armstrong raced. It was openly discussed among riders. Before races UCI officials would tell people whether there would be testing, and the word would be spread rider to rider so everyone would know whether to load up on amphetamines or not. Corticosteroid abuse was rampant and destroyed entire seasons of riders. Steroids were commonly used. It beggars belief for LeMond to pretend he did not know that Armstrong was doping. He knew just like everyone else inside cycling knew. Even the savvy fans knew.

LeMond went out of his way to cast doubt on Armstrong because he was upset he had been eclipsed by a new American cycling star and was not getting the accolades in public that he felt he was due. As the figurehead of a bike brand, attacking a current and wildly popular star of the sport was stupid. His brand suffered a predictable backlash. This did not require a shadowy conspiracy by Armstrong. Regular Joes were coming into IBSes and telling owners that they would never buy a LeMond bike. He cut his own throat.

These days Betsy Andreu is a professional victim. Her version of events has her innocently going about her way, getting a subpoena for the SCA arbitration, and Armstrong hating her for refusing to lie. She leaves out the part where she was feuding with Armstrong for years before the SCA suit, was hounding journalists to go after Armstrong, and was in part responsible for the SCA case taking place in the first place.

Betsy blames Armstrong every time she trips over a crack in the sidewalk. The latest is a doozy. Within hours of notification that Armstrong had given an interview with the BBC, she was searching for a news outlet to say Armstrong was not really sorry. Her reasoning was bizarre. Frankie receiving notification that he would be subpoenaed in the qui tam case was held up as evidence that Armstrong is still attacking her family. There was not a hint of acknowledgement that these days Armstrong is doing little more than signing the checks while his lawyers turn over every stone. Of course Frankie is going to get subpoenaed. Everyone remotely involved will be subpoenaed. Meanwhile, over on Cycling News, Frankie is playing dumb by saying he does not understand why he is being subpoenaed because he left the team before Landis joined so it must be vengeance by Armstrong. He seems to forget that he could give information about the riders on Postal who were already doping before Armstrong joined the team, throwing doubt on the fairy tale of Armstrong forcing people to dope that is being pushed by his wife and Travis Tygart.

She also never says anything about people in every profession relying on a network of friends and contacts, and she and her husband burned every bridge to those. No one can trust Frankie after she had him sucker his friends into conversations about doping so he could record what they said. George Hincapie might have said it best when he said Frankie's ex-friends could not understand why he was attacking them for doing the same thing he was doing when he was racing. After stabbing Jon Vaughters in the back, he destroyed his chances of employment with JV's team. Yet, Betsy blames everything on a conspiracy by Armstrong rather than her own inability to move on.

David Walsh is, perhaps, the biggest hypocrite. He is now acting as the chief propagandist for Team Sky and Chris Froome. His hypocritical reversal was so repugnant to Paul Kimmage that Kimmage ended their friendship. All the laughable explanations that were used by Postal to explain Armstrong's performance are now being promoted by Walsh. In a rather digusting display of chutzpah, he has compared those who doubt Froome as dejected Armsrong fans who chose to support Contador instead of Froome just as the Jews chose Barabbas over Jesus. He now mocks the very reasoning he used to decide that Armstrong must be doping because it is being used to question Froome's sudden and unexplainable transmogrification.

One of the few in this whole sordid affair that turned out to have consistency and integrity is Paul Kimmage.
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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
sp1ke wrote:
He does say in the interview that 1) he doesn't regret doping 2) he does regret being an asshole


He could not have succeeded at hiding 1) if he did not also do 2). So he is still full of shit.

yea, but it is impossible to regret being a sociopath.
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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [Arch Stanton] [ In reply to ]
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Arch Stanton wrote:
David Walsh is, perhaps, the biggest hypocrite. He is now acting as the chief propagandist for Team Sky and Chris Froome.
I did not know this, that is disturbing.


Arch Stanton wrote:
One of the few in this whole sordid affair that turned out to have consistency and integrity is Paul Kimmage.
Glad to hear that. His 'rough ride' book was outstanding, it was the one that got me to start looking at pro cycling with new eyes.


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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Lance was and is a bad man. I was a fanboy for a long time, resting on the innocent until proven guilty. My wife ridiculed me for my position, but she didn't understand my strongly held belief that innocence has to be assumed and guilt has to be proven. For it to be the otherway round, and apply to all things in life, we'd be back at the Salem Witch Trials and life as we know it in the West would be very very different.

They caught lots of people due to the testing, but didn't catch Lance. He was 1 step ahead of the testing. He had to lie when asked, or it would all unravel. He was much like Richard Nixon in that regard.

IF I elected to dope, that would be the first lie. Lying about doping is the second lie. Third lie is attacking the attackers. And so on.

Lance was the best cyclist due to doping. He was also the best at lying. He got away with it way longer than any of the other dopers. Of course we will never know what would have happened if he and all the other dopers never doped. That spawns all sorts of discussion here on ST and in the cycling press.

I no longer look up to Lance, and I pity him for his choices (to dope and lie) but I can certainly see why he did. It's pretty clear that arguably everyone else was doping. It's very easy to jump on a bandwagon. He didn't build the bandwagon, but he did jump on board with both feet and steer the wagon.

While he is a bad man and deserves a punishment, I have to agree that a life ban is too much, when compared with the bans on other dopers. If the standard punishment is 2 years, then I think a 5 year ban for Lance would have been more reasonable.

TriDork

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Re: Lance Armstrong Speaks Out on Doping, Lifetime Ban in BBC Interview [tridork] [ In reply to ]
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Lance was (emphasis on WAS) so good for the sport. Truth be told I think Lance's choices are a tragedy for all of us that participate and follow endurance sports. The Lance story was pretty awesome. I would have even forgiven him all the doping he did since he was in vast company in that effort. Doping was really a sign of the times in the sport during the Lance era. What I can't forgive and the true root of his downfall is the nasty and self-centered person that he was (and probably still is).

The things he did to others in the sport and all around him are very hard to forgive. I say that he should be thankful he got off so easy and stop complaining about not being able to participate in races for charity. You could make a pretty strong case that he should be brought up on criminal charges for some of the stuff he did. I don't feel sorry for him at all but I do think that the sport sorely misses what he represented.

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