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LBS - Salesman Issues
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People who run retail shops really to think about the way they talk to (and react in) conversations with customers.

I have an LBS that I don't frequently interact with, but I've bought some small stuff through them here and there. I doubt any of them know my name. I recently went in looking for a new bike, we talked about the various brands they carry and they mentioned that Santa Cruz was quite popular for them. They didn't have any on the floor, and they don't have a demo bike. I told him I was surprised it was so popular for them, over Trek (which is on the floor), in part because Santa Cruz was available online though many discount vendors like Competitive Cyclist. If they had units on the floor or a demo, it'd be less surprising. He said "if you buy from them we will not help you with any warranty work." It was a bit of a tangent and took me off guard, and it's not something I'd do anyway. If he wanted to go off on this tangent, what he should have said was: "If you end up buying it from them, I hope you'd buy tires/tubes/sealant/etc from us." Perhaps I just expect too much, but it cost them a sale in the end.

I like LBSs, in theory, but poor sales personalities really kill a lot of them for me.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [rijndael] [ In reply to ]
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In the day & age of Amazon Prime, if these LBS don't get their shit together, they will no longer exist. They can't compete with price. Most of the time they don't have what you need in stock &
have to order it, losing on speed. The only thing they have left is knowledge & customer service, which most of the new shops are lacking.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. I just added some new Ergon grips to my Amazon cart.

I want to buy local. I like the idea of window shopping. I want to take my kids to an LBS for real bikes, rather than Walmart bikes. But, you need good personalities working there. Knowledge isn't enough.

I miss the quintessential salesmen. They were around 30+ years ago. Guys that were personable AND knowledgeable. I just don't find them anymore. At this point, I'd take personable over knowledgeable, at least on the sales side.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]
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turningscrews wrote:
In the day & age of Amazon Prime, if these LBS don't get their shit together, they will no longer exist. They can't compete with price. Most of the time they don't have what you need in stock &
have to order it, losing on speed. The only thing they have left is knowledge & customer service, which most of the new shops are lacking.


LBS business is still based around average Fred coming over without a clue and paying top $ for accessories sold with the bike, then we have a bit more "sophisticated" guys that will ask for free accessories while terribly overpaying for the bike.
Overall, LBS can save average person\begginer a lot of time and aggravation related to tuneups etc. I'm at the point I do all my mechanic stuff myself and do not relay on mercy of the mechanic and his current mood, I'm also tired bringing bike for "free" adjustments time lost is way to great.

Bicycles are not rockets, learn your $hit on YouTube, get few tools and be independent, it is not that hard. Why anyone your pay 15$ for chain replacement, for chain that is way to long because they were too lazy to ask what is my largest cog and how do I want it? (local Fred has no clue about their cassette size)

Having said that, right now all local LBS could be shutdown and I would not miss them at all, but few years back they had quite good business from me. I guess my technical expectations outgrew their technical abilities, plus I fix my bikes with true love, and you can't buy love ;)
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [rijndael] [ In reply to ]
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I want to take my kids to an LBS for real bikes, rather than Walmart bikes.

Perhaps it's the inner cheapskate in me but I couldn't disagree more with this idea. It doesn't matter what you but a 10 year old - whether its a Walmart bike or a LBS bike - they are going to outgrow it in a few years. Plus, if your kids are anything like mine, it doesn't matter what you buy them they are going to be very rough on it. It's what they are supposed to do. They're kids. Why buy them a $500+ LBS bike when you can get them a $100 Walmart or Target bike that will serve the same purpose?

Of course, this all goes out the window if the kid gets into bike racing or something. But, that's a purpose specific purchase. When my son was doing triathlons he had a kids road bike that he raced which came from a LBS. His everyday general purpose bike was a Walmart bike and by the time he outgrew it it was a rusted piece of junk.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [logella] [ In reply to ]
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logella wrote:
It doesn't matter what you but a 10 year old - whether its a Walmart bike or a LBS bike - they are going to outgrow it in a few years.
I have 4 kids. When one grows out of it, it goes in to the basement and the next in line will get it. It will see a lot of use before its donated. We used to go the Walmart route, but when I have to reassemble/recable the bike, or replace the really soft V brake arms that will not hold the noodle, it's easy to end up costing more than if I'd bought something better.

logella wrote:
Why buy them a $500+ LBS bike when you can get them a $100 Walmart...
I'm not spending $500 on kids bikes. My oldest has finally moved in to an adult bike. It's a Trek 820. I think I paid $330 for it. The others are riding bikes that cost a lot less.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [rijndael] [ In reply to ]
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"if you buy from them we will not help you with any warranty work."

two things. first, just make sure he wasn't making the same statement you would make if you were him. will santa cruz compensate him for warranty work? if not, why would he do it? why would you do it? just make sure you're not blaming your LBS because of santa cruz's policy for warranty.

second, let's say that he would be compensated by santa cruz for warranty. i this case you're absolutely right. this is one reason we are getting ready to announce a confederacy of shops called "spoke alliance" and one of the hallmarks of this group of shops is the absense of that pouting and nonsense.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [rijndael] [ In reply to ]
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I like LBSs, in theory, but poor sales personalities really kill a lot of them for me.


Thankfully not all bike shops are like that - but enough of them are, that there is this strong perception out there, that the sales help in many LBS's will not be that great.

Personally, over the years, in a wide variety of bike shops I've been exposed to some of the worst sales experiences I've ever experienced - from the completely benign - like not even saying "hello" or acknowledging my presence, to out-right bald-faced lying about things and being grossly wrong on others!

The most common mistake I see is basic sales-101 stuff - ask some good leading questions, then shut-up. Let the CUSTOMER do most of the talking. They will tell you want they want/need, and then you need to deliver that. It's really that simple. You tend to get the opposite - the bike shop sales-person pontificating on something - making the customer feel like an idiot, and intimidated. Winning, someone back after that, is VERY hard. It's often over, in the first 30sec - 1min of interaction. Things happen that fast!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
will santa cruz compensate him for warranty work? if not, why would he do it? why would you do it? just make sure you're not blaming your LBS because of santa cruz's policy for warranty.

I don't think it matters. I wouldn't ask him to warranty something I didn't buy from them in the first place. He assumed I would. Driving to an LBS is more effort than dropping a part in the mail, and the customer service at places like CC is generally far better than anything I've ever received locally. I'd have to wait for the part anyway, I may as well wait and have it delivered to my house.
Last edited by: rijndael: Feb 14, 17 6:43
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
Thankfully not all bike shops are like that - but enough of them are, that there is this strong perception out there, that the sales help in many LBS's will not be that great.
Your'e right, they're not all like that. On more than one occasion I've driven past a dozen local shops to a really good shop 80 miles away.

Fleck wrote:
Winning, someone back after that, is VERY hard. It's often over, in the first 30sec - 1min of interaction. Things happen that fast!
It's easy to mess up, that's for sure. This isn't the first bad experience I've had with that shop. Last year, they were supposed to get me a demo of a BMC Road Machine. They never got it. This is the second strike.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [logella] [ In reply to ]
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"Real" bikes are designed and tested to put up with abuse that fully-grown individuals can dish out. An entry-level brand name kid's MTB can still make it down the trail in one piece and resold for a small loss to the next parent, while a Walmart bike will bend and break. There are some hilarious examples of expert rides attempting to ride a Walmart bike as "intended".

Kids don't really "abuse" the bikes as much as don't get a chance at a bike designed for actual use. As a kid I was gentle and cared for my cheap Walmart-level bikes and still had them fall apart on me. Notably, one bike didn't even have pedal threads, but just a press-fit interface between crank and pedal - and of course that pedal fell out during a no-parents ride out into the bush, before the days of cellular communications. A few years later, my entry-level road bike, that's seen races and crashes under an adult three times the weight and about 20 times the power output as my 8-year old self, is still going strong after nearly a decade. At least the lessons were learned and my brother, 16 years younger, got to grow up on real bikes.

ZONE3 - We Last Longer
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [rijndael] [ In reply to ]
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Find a different LBS, but if you're looking at an MTB (which, if you're talking Santa Cruz, I assume you are?) I really recommend getting it from a shop. Even the most complicated triathlon bike seems like child's play compared to the maintenance required from standard MTB use, and a service-friendly LBS is a life- and money-saver. Buy from a shop that's close, friendly and knowledgeable.

I had a Trek Superfly FS (sadly stolen last week) and when I was logging hundreds of weekly KMs on the thing ahead of big races, it was essentially in the shop every other week for a quick tune-up, a bearing creak, a wheel true or some other niggle - and apart from the odd parts bill I was never charged a thing. When I dented the rim they replaced it (with an upgraded model), when my shoe threads disintegrated (after two years!) they replaced it with the newer BOA shoe. Now that's exceptional service, but it's a service that, if I hadn't bought the bike from them, I wouldn't expect to get even if it's "their brand".

ZONE3 - We Last Longer
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [rijndael] [ In reply to ]
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rijndael wrote:
He said "if you buy from them we will not help you with any warranty work." It was a bit of a tangent and took me off guard, and it's not something I'd do anyway. If he wanted to go off on this tangent, what he should have said was: "If you end up buying it from them, I hope you'd buy tires/tubes/sealant/etc from us." Perhaps I just expect too much, but it cost them a sale in the end.

I like LBSs, in theory, but poor sales personalities really kill a lot of them for me.

I see where he's coming from... take my recent example for my Giant bought from a local shop that closed down. The brakes were poorly executed on my model, so Giant was replacing them for free.... three revisions but I digress.

So I had to take it to a Giant shop somewhere since Giant will only ship the parts to a dealer. The closest one was an hour away... I have to drop my bike off there, pick it up at a later time and some shop I don't do business with works on my bike and gets paid nothing for it I'm guessing.

I wonder if they can invoice for their time to the manufacture?

The LBS in general is a dying entity.. IMO it will have to be reinvented in some way to match the current market of online sales.
Last edited by: xeon: Feb 14, 17 7:21
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [rijndael] [ In reply to ]
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rijndael wrote:

I miss the quintessential salesmen. They were around 30+ years ago. Guys that were personable AND knowledgeable. I just don't find them anymore. At this point, I'd take personable over knowledgeable, at least on the sales side.

You may want to take off your rose colored glasses. Bike shops have always employed underskilled or cranky people at less than desirable wages. I say this as someone who worked in a bike shop in the 90s. The internet has just made you more knowledgeable and given you better alternatives.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [Karl.n] [ In reply to ]
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Karl.n wrote:
You may want to take off your rose colored glasses. Bike shops have always employed underskilled or cranky people at less than desirable wages.
I know, I'm guilty. It's just that I'm buying a $4K bike, not a $5 tube.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [tessar] [ In reply to ]
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I appreciate your advise/experience. I'm a corner case though, short of needing a part warrantied because of a defect, I don't use the service at an LBS. I have all of the tools and knowledge to do it myself, including wheel building.

Perhaps this is part of the problem, it's a lack of a relationship here that's exacerbated an issue. But this sale would have helped create that relationship.
Last edited by: rijndael: Feb 14, 17 8:02
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [sebo2000] [ In reply to ]
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turningscrews wrote:
you can't buy love ;)

I've been to Amsterdam....I disagree

Ask me how much I love my Kiwami LD Aero Trisuit
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [rijndael] [ In reply to ]
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logella wrote:
Why buy them a $500+ LBS bike when you can get them a $100 Walmart...

I'm not spending $500 on kids bikes. My oldest has finally moved in to an adult bike. It's a Trek 820. I think I paid $330 for it. The others are riding bikes that cost a lot less.[/quote]
I bought my kid a sick mountain bike from my LBS that was well over $500 when he was 12 years old - he was 5'5" at that age. Lo-and-behold, he grew out of it in a few short years and I ended up with a used sick mountain bike that fit me perfect at 5'8". Bonus: the kid grew up mountain biking. He got a lot of great gear between age 12 - 15 and then ended up at 6'5" so I have a lot of self-funded hand-me-downs. Its a great strategy.

Hillary Trout
San Luis Obispo, CA

Your trip is short. Make the most of it.
https://www.slogoing.net/
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [rijndael] [ In reply to ]
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I've become increasingly anti-LBS lately:
1. LBS pricing is crazy. Tires and components are often literally double the online price. I understand this is mostly driven by distribution costs and rules and that no one in an LBS is getting rich but it doesn't change the fact that charging $70+ for a GP4000sII when I get can get the exact same tire for $37 with free two-day shipping is ridiculous.
2. LBSs often have surly service. There's a lot of attitude in bike shops, usually it's entitled, snobby and unnecessarily defensive. I don't have time for that crap.
3. Too many mechanics have no idea what they're doing. If you work as a mechanic in a bike shop, you should know how to properly true a wheel, how to properly cut a steerer, how to properly adjust disc brakes etc and yet too often these guys have no idea what they're doing. Fixing bikes isn't rocket science, these are simple mechanisms.
4. With YouTube, it's really easy these days to learn how to do most things yourself. Meanwhile, it's a total PITA to schlep a bike to a store and pay top dollar while you wait a week for them to do something (often poorly). I'd rather buy the tool needed, watch a few videos and do it myself. This is a personal preference thing.
5. The main reason to go to a bike shop is to see and touch the goods. Yet bike shops have increasingly cut back on inventory to the point that most rarely have a bike on the floor I'd consider buying. Also, clothing selection, tools, saddles, tires, lights, shoes, helmets etc are all thin on the ground. I understand carrying a large inventory is expensive and I don't blame LBSs for limiting what they have in stock, but again that doesn't change the fact that they're sacrificing their primary advantage over online.

Overall, direct and online sales are going to kill the LBS dead. I'm not sure I'm going to miss them. I think independent mechanics might have a future.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [hiro11] [ In reply to ]
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Your whole post is spot on. This point really hit home with me:

hiro11 wrote:
I've become increasingly anti-LBS lately:
1. LBS pricing is crazy. Tires and components are often literally double the online price. I understand this is mostly driven by distribution costs and rules and that no one in an LBS is getting rich but it doesn't change the fact that charging $70+ for a GP4000sII when I get can get the exact same tire for $37 with free two-day shipping is ridiculous.

It's crazy when you can buy a tire online, then walk in to your LBS and give them $20 for the fun of it, and still make out ahead than buying a tire from them in the first place.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [rijndael] [ In reply to ]
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True. Amazon Prime and other on-line shops can get the part you need to you within 2 days and sometimes with free shipping. At the LBS, they place their shop orders once a week (usually the day before you come in) AND don't know if the part is in stock or on back-order. So you end up waiting forever.
--

Straightenin' the curves; Flattenin' the hills
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Coached by Mike Plumb @ TriPower MultiSports
https://www.strava.com/athletes/1149072 - https://www.instagram.com/thoswoods/
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [rijndael] [ In reply to ]
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rijndael wrote:
Your whole post is spot on. This point really hit home with me:

hiro11 wrote:
I've become increasingly anti-LBS lately:
1. LBS pricing is crazy. Tires and components are often literally double the online price. I understand this is mostly driven by distribution costs and rules and that no one in an LBS is getting rich but it doesn't change the fact that charging $70+ for a GP4000sII when I get can get the exact same tire for $37 with free two-day shipping is ridiculous.


It's crazy when you can buy a tire online, then walk in to your LBS and give them $20 for the fun of it, and still make out ahead than buying a tire from them in the first place.

While this is true, it's not the LBS' fault. I have no idea how LBS should do to survive, and I have yet to see one thrive lately. Perhaps a consolidation of large online retailers with brick and mortar shops?
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [dalava] [ In reply to ]
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dalava wrote:
While this is true, it's not the LBS' fault. I have no idea how LBS should do to survive, and I have yet to see one thrive lately. Perhaps a consolidation of large online retailers with brick and mortar shops?

It's not really anyone's fault. I want to support an LBS, if they're good, but I can't be wasteful with my money either. I'll pay a small premium to touch/feel/hold a part before I buy it, but I can't be tossing away $20 bills with every order.

Trek buys four-store chain Revolution Cycles
http://www.bicycleretailer.com/...in-revolution-cycles
Last edited by: rijndael: Feb 14, 17 9:18
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [rijndael] [ In reply to ]
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rijndael wrote:
He said "if you buy from them we will not help you with any warranty work." It was a bit of a tangent and took me off guard, and it's not something I'd do anyway. If he wanted to go off on this tangent, what he should have said was: "If you end up buying it from them, I hope you'd buy tires/tubes/sealant/etc from us." .

While you wouldn't take in a frame bought elsewhere and expect warranty support, that store will have been exposed to a lot of customers who do expect that. And become angry when the store won't work for free.

You're right that his delivery was poor - he should have touted the benefits of purchasing through them - warranty support, free servicing etc rather than focusing on a negative.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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cyclenutnz wrote:
rijndael wrote:
He said "if you buy from them we will not help you with any warranty work." It was a bit of a tangent and took me off guard, and it's not something I'd do anyway. If he wanted to go off on this tangent, what he should have said was: "If you end up buying it from them, I hope you'd buy tires/tubes/sealant/etc from us." .


While you wouldn't take in a frame bought elsewhere and expect warranty support, that store will have been exposed to a lot of customers who do expect that. And become angry when the store won't work for free.

You're right that his delivery was poor - he should have touted the benefits of purchasing through them - warranty support, free servicing etc rather than focusing on a negative.

Umm, every original purchaser of a bike should expect that at ANY dealer that sells that manufacturer. That's part of the dealer agreement.
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