Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Knee pain/running shoes
Quote | Reply
I've been running in Hoka Clifton shoes for several years and love them. Last summer I got the Clifton 4 and soon started having trouble with my knees. Not sure if it's the shoes or just the body. Any suggestions?
Quote Reply
Re: Knee pain/running shoes [trimiketri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Gonna be hard for folks to provide useful answers w/o more specifics re. the knee pain. Tendonitus related? If so which one? Cartilage related? Any history of knee issues? It's a complicated subject.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
Quote Reply
Re: Knee pain/running shoes [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I've never tried the Clifton, but the Bondi (their most cushioned shoe), a knee brace and overall weight loss solved my last knee problem.

"The first virtue in a soldier is endurance of fatigue; courage is only the second virtue."
- Napoleon Bonaparte
Quote Reply
Re: Knee pain/running shoes [trimiketri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Too little info. Can a different pair is shoes cause knee problems? Sure, if it is a big change in foot position.
Could be a change in running, just aging, a lot of things.
Tell us more and then we all play doctor ;)
Slowtwitch is both a great and horrible source for knowledge.

Team Zoot So Cal
Quote Reply
Re: Knee pain/running shoes [trimiketri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Just to keep in mind - very padded big drop shoes move a lot of the forces from running from the achilles/foot to the hip/knee. A LOT. This is why even accomplished runners who always wear motion control cushiony shoes can barely run in minimalist/barefoot shoes without a long transition period.

It's too hard to do the 20+ year studies needed, but some researchers (the guy at Harvard) speculate that a lot of the degeneration we are seeing in knees and hips in older folks may partly be to blame on the cushiony shoes redirecting forces away from the foot/achilles. No shoes or even barefoot can absorb all the forces - cushions just smoothen out some of the impact but send it higher up the leg. That guy from Harvard believes we're doing ourselves a disservice by short-circuiting our naturally evolved achilles/foot complex by relying on heavily built shoes.

I've recently made the full transition to barefoot/ultraminimalist type shoes and it's really, really eye opening as to how much more forces are transmitted to foot/achilles rather than upwards. Really, really dramatic. It's also better for preventing overtraining - I used to slog along with terrible form in the motion control shoes, which probably did more damage than good, whereas you can't do that in the minimalist/barefoot. If you're too fatigued/weak to get onto your forefoot, no running is happening (which is the correct thing to do, rather than potentially injure yourself or damage joints with poor form.)
Last edited by: lightheir: Nov 18, 17 9:21
Quote Reply
Re: Knee pain/running shoes [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Well said light, I highly recommend reading Anatomy for runners, total game changer.

lightheir wrote:
Just to keep in mind - very padded big drop shoes move a lot of the forces from running from the achilles/foot to the hip/knee. A LOT. This is why even accomplished runners who always wear motion control cushiony shoes can barely run in minimalist/barefoot shoes without a long transition period.

It's too hard to do the 20+ year studies needed, but some researchers (the guy at Harvard) speculate that a lot of the degeneration we are seeing in knees and hips in older folks may partly be to blame on the cushiony shoes redirecting forces away from the foot/achilles. No shoes or even barefoot can absorb all the forces - cushions just smoothen out some of the impact but send it higher up the leg. That guy from Harvard believes we're doing ourselves a disservice by short-circuiting our naturally evolved achilles/foot complex by relying on heavily built shoes.

I've recently made the full transition to barefoot/ultraminimalist type shoes and it's really, really eye opening as to how much more forces are transmitted to foot/achilles rather than upwards. Really, really dramatic. It's also better for preventing overtraining - I used to slog along with terrible form in the motion control shoes, which probably did more damage than good, whereas you can't do that in the minimalist/barefoot. If you're too fatigued/weak to get onto your forefoot, no running is happening (which is the correct thing to do, rather than potentially injure yourself or damage joints with poor form.)
Quote Reply
Re: Knee pain/running shoes [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
lightheir wrote:
Just to keep in mind - very padded big drop shoes move a lot of the forces from running from the achilles/foot to the hip/knee. A LOT. This is why even accomplished runners who always wear motion control cushiony shoes can barely run in minimalist/barefoot shoes without a long transition period.

It's too hard to do the 20+ year studies needed, but some researchers (the guy at Harvard) speculate that a lot of the degeneration we are seeing in knees and hips in older folks may partly be to blame on the cushiony shoes redirecting forces away from the foot/achilles. No shoes or even barefoot can absorb all the forces - cushions just smoothen out some of the impact but send it higher up the leg. That guy from Harvard believes we're doing ourselves a disservice by short-circuiting our naturally evolved achilles/foot complex by relying on heavily built shoes.

I've recently made the full transition to barefoot/ultraminimalist type shoes and it's really, really eye opening as to how much more forces are transmitted to foot/achilles rather than upwards. Really, really dramatic. It's also better for preventing overtraining - I used to slog along with terrible form in the motion control shoes, which probably did more damage than good, whereas you can't do that in the minimalist/barefoot. If you're too fatigued/weak to get onto your forefoot, no running is happening (which is the correct thing to do, rather than potentially injure yourself or damage joints with poor form.)
That was really interesting. I've been running pretty seriously for >40yrs. I was in Oregon running in HS as Nike was just getting started and feeling it's way into the science of running shoes and human physiology. I've always bought into the conventional view that a big focus on impact protection is good. At 175lbs, I'm no fly weight and my knee cartilage has taken a beating over the years, so I've become all the more oriented on big impact protection. I worry that I'm too old to change now to something minimalist. After >40yrs of heavy heel striking, one can't easily adapt to a more mid-foot sort of strike. Christ, I could spend a decade battling one injury after another, old folk healing slowly, as I worked to get my body adjusted to the new idea of mid-foot strike. But the idea that "mid foot strike is what we are designed for" is darn interesting.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
Quote Reply
Re: Knee pain/running shoes [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Believe it or not, you may actually be a candidate for the minimalist Barefoot shoe running despite your knee issues. Aa said, minimalist technique relies on your foot, leg from an Achilles, to be your cushion and as a result, the hardness of the surface you are running on does not matter at all. I run with shoes that only protect the skin and provides cushioning, and have no problems on any surface. It does take some adjustment as you have to learn to run to lower with more bent knees at first which feels awkward but then becomes very natural once you get used to

Such a style of running mate enable you to put less impact on your limiting knees and utilize more of your more intact ankle and achilles tendons. Of course, this is a slow process. I am much lighter than you at 150, however it took me 4 - 6 months of very gradual increase load in running, definitely under 25 miles per week and more closer to 10 miles a week for the first month, before I could start really putting load on my Achilles.

And another benefit is that once you go minimalist you can literally wear any sort of minimalist shoe, the main ones being cheap water shoots which generally cost under $20. No more being hamstrung by your favorite model of cushion shoes change for the worst worse
Quote Reply
Re: Knee pain/running shoes [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
What are water shoes?
Quote Reply
Re: Knee pain/running shoes [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Shoes with no midsole, aka super-cheap shoes, which are commonly used for water activities but work surprisingly well for minimalist running. Amazon it to take a peek at whats avaialable. I run in a $9 water sock for most of my runs now
Quote Reply
Re: Knee pain/running shoes [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Wow thanks for the tip !
Quote Reply
Re: Knee pain/running shoes [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I transitioned to zero drop/minimalist shoes at age of 55. I had been battling knee issues for years with cushioned motion control shoes and custom orthotics. The transition to minimalist shoes and the accompanying shift to midfoot/forefoot striking ended the knee issues almost overnight.
BUT and,this cannot be emphasised too much, you MUST build back up the mileage slowly to give the ankle and foot time to strengthen. This is a real trap for the Type As out there! I also strongly recommend Ducharry's Anatomy for Runners - read it before you start this transition.
Quote Reply
Re: Knee pain/running shoes [trimiketri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sorry for derailing the thread but...
/pink

Does going back to the Clifton 3 make the pain go away?
Quote Reply
Re: Knee pain/running shoes [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Not sure if you absolutely need to go the minimalist route, but at lease very low drop shoes with not too much cushioning (I use Altras these days) have saved my bad knees (cartilage), even drastically improving the condition to the point of not feeling any pain any more at all (before, during or after running).
Quote Reply
Re: Knee pain/running shoes [trimiketri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Just from my own experience, after a MAJOR lower leg run injury during a race a couple years ago, I used minimal drop shoes (Altra & HOKA), once the healing began to the point where I could run short (3-4 miles). The Altra's were not enough cushion & the lack of drop caused my calf injury to flare up again. Over 8 months I transitioned to HOKA, the relief was very noticeable. Over the next year or so I developed a different injury in the hips & hamstring area with the HOKA. Was the cause the HOKA?

This I do not know for sure, but I felt the shoe did more of the running for me, and my landing & toe-off moved AWAY from my natural run form. It has been a long road to recovery and I'm still on it, but what has sped it up is moving back to a light, traditional drop shoe for daily wear. I got Pegasus 33's just to try them at a tent sale this past Memorial Day & have loved not only the light weight, but the return to a normal 10 mm drop. I am finally starting to feel as if I'm getting a taste of my natural run form & the hip/hammy issues are slowly fading.

As for knee issues, have you thought it may be in part to your cleat position or fore/aft on the bike? Seat height? I am not sure if you bike or not, but just a thought it may NOT be your run shoes. I have had some knee pain lately but it seems to follow the day after cycling, so I think it has to do with my shoes/pedal position.
Quote Reply
Re: Knee pain/running shoes [Rocky M] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rotate all sorts of different shoes. Have many different versions of Hokas, Nike, Ecco, and other shoes. I rotate, but mainly use Hoka, but always vary during training.
Quote Reply
Re: Knee pain/running shoes [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
EnderWiggan wrote:
Well said light, I highly recommend reading Anatomy for runners, total game changer.

lightheir wrote:
Just to keep in mind - very padded big drop shoes move a lot of the forces from running from the achilles/foot to the hip/knee. A LOT. This is why even accomplished runners who always wear motion control cushiony shoes can barely run in minimalist/barefoot shoes without a long transition period.

It's too hard to do the 20+ year studies needed, but some researchers (the guy at Harvard) speculate that a lot of the degeneration we are seeing in knees and hips in older folks may partly be to blame on the cushiony shoes redirecting forces away from the foot/achilles. No shoes or even barefoot can absorb all the forces - cushions just smoothen out some of the impact but send it higher up the leg. That guy from Harvard believes we're doing ourselves a disservice by short-circuiting our naturally evolved achilles/foot complex by relying on heavily built shoes.

I've recently made the full transition to barefoot/ultraminimalist type shoes and it's really, really eye opening as to how much more forces are transmitted to foot/achilles rather than upwards. Really, really dramatic. It's also better for preventing overtraining - I used to slog along with terrible form in the motion control shoes, which probably did more damage than good, whereas you can't do that in the minimalist/barefoot. If you're too fatigued/weak to get onto your forefoot, no running is happening (which is the correct thing to do, rather than potentially injure yourself or damage joints with poor form.)


Sure, "transitioning" your running shoes from Cushioned to Minimalist will do wonders for your old knees.
Best to keep up the mileage and make sure it is a smooth transition to it...your hips will thank you.....
and your achilles/calf will rupture.
Lightheir and you really are out in force to decimate your fellow AG competition!

To the OP:
My bet its that the last/construction/support/upper of the new version is different from the old.
You would want to really slowly, very slowly rotate the new version in.
If you still have problems after introducing the new version over several weeks, I'd ditch them.

Radically changing your footwear at an older age is a recipe for disaster!
Last edited by: windschatten: Nov 22, 17 0:02
Quote Reply
Re: Knee pain/running shoes [trimiketri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeah I don't know about the "going to a minimalist shoe will solve your knee problems" and all the studies behind it. I think everyone is different and you have to use empirical experience to decide what's best for you. I ran on the Asics Gel Nimbus (their most cushioned shoe) for years until I got into my 50's and my knees started really suffering at the latter stages of long runs. I have very good running form. I tried the Hoka Bondi and have never looked back. The difference was simply remarkable. I ran a fast 6 miler the other day in my Asics (I had forgot the Hokas) and my legs were wrecked. Hokas (in my opinion) are amazing and great for us old guys. The proof is in the putting as Hoka was the #1 shoe at Kona this year. It's not hype, there's an actual reason for that. I'm sure some people can't stand these shoes, they are butt ugly and not fast, but when it comes to long course tri, for me, they are indispensable. I would probably not be still racing long course if it was not for them. If someone like me was going to try going in another shoe direction, what would folks recommend? Just curious.

"The first virtue in a soldier is endurance of fatigue; courage is only the second virtue."
- Napoleon Bonaparte
Quote Reply