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Kickr SNAP
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After initially seeing the REI 20% coupon applicable to the Kickr SNAP this year I picked one up. I had been debating between a Vortex / Bushido (possibly ordered from Germany), Power Sync or other less common option -- i.e. bkool, elite.

ERG training sounded interesting to me and I really enjoy data and toys. Certainly with a Power Meter and virtually any other trainer (my existing unit was an old grey Kurt Kinetic) one can get their workouts in fine.

I've now ridden the SNAP about 5 short times, but notice odd behaviors here and there -- generally accuracy or ERG control issues. From my experiences I wanted to start a thread related to the SNAP and hope others can share their experiences or best practices. I did a quick search and the SNAP seems to show up in a few other semi-related threads, but nothing that specifically talks to my intent.

My experiences:
My first few rides had SNAP reporting 15-25% lower power than my Power Tap reported. I tried spindown and advanced spindown calibration with little success. I *believe* the fix for me was to tighten the load unit to my wheel further (2 full turns). I was likely closer to 1 full turn in the early goings. Now I seem to be within the stated 5% accuracy, generally within 3% (n=3 rides or so this way).

Another user on DCR's comments mentioned a problem with the Trainer Road workout Keeler Needle -- the steeper ramps seemed to not work properly. I decided to try it on my own and also noted the problem. It seems like the steep ramp causes the trainer to get confused and ignore most new setpoints. It did "grab on" at a few places during my ramp, but it ended up looking like a wild stair-stepping interval rather than a ramp. This was with BT control.

Quickly changing setpoints with the Wahoo app seems to miss updates at times, possibly related to the ramp problem above. i.e. riding along at 140, clicking "+" twice to go to 340 left me with a displayed SP of 340 but the SNAP controlled to 240. Fixed by manually moving away from 340 and back, but annoying.

Using the SNAP with Trainer Road (at least the Windows Beta) doesn't seem to work well for me. ERG control seems randomly delayed, possibly by 30-60 seconds at times, and the spindown requests kept failing (after asking for a spindown I'd see "requesting calibration" followed shortly by "calibration failed, retry?').

General Notes:
-I haven't tried it with Zwift or any other apps yet (Just Wahoo's generic app, TR for iOS and TR Windows Beta)

-I am hopeful accuracy remains good if my wheel tightness is consistent, but after the first few rides I was nervous about how sensitive it seemed to wheel tightness -- with no warning of tightness being off or calibration failing.

Again, starting the thread with hopes others can share their best practices or experiences. Are my examples consistent with your's? Do you have workarounds? Other issues?

My firmware is up-to-date (as of now... 2.0.28).

Minor updates -
1) Looks like FE-C is in a beta (2.0.29) now, although I haven't tried it.

2) After using the SNAP for awhile I am seeing better results. I cannot say exactly what I did to make this change, but this is what I know:
--I did an advanced spindown after an 80 minute ride
--I try to check my tire pressure carefully and set to 115 psi each ride
--I more carefully adjust my knob pressure to 2 full turns after initially touching the wheel

I also check how close my readings are early in the workout and avoid spindown calibration if they seem within 5%. I guess if I see they are that close I am scared the spindown will cause more error :)

I would say I am generally happy with the SNAP over the last 3-4 weeks (I've had it for roughly 8 weeks). I'm at least seeing pretty consistent 5% or less error from my PT readings.
Last edited by: nord0296: Jan 15, 16 20:35
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Re: Kickr SNAP [nord0296] [ In reply to ]
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Considering the SNAP. Would love to hear from others owners.
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Re: Kickr SNAP [nord0296] [ In reply to ]
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nord0296 wrote:

Quickly changing setpoints with the Wahoo app seems to miss updates at times, possibly related to the ramp problem above. i.e. riding along at 140, clicking "+" twice to go to 340 left me with a displayed SP of 340 but the SNAP controlled to 240. Fixed by manually moving away from 340 and back, but annoying.

.


Anyone else have this issue? I typically always train with PerfPro Studios but I am traveling this week and used the Wahoo app on my android phone last night. I seemed to have similar behavior. My Kickr and Vectors usually track very closely but I noticed several times when I upped from 150w to higher wattages that it didn't always seem to update. The app would report say 260 watts but my vectors read 240. Eventually if I played with the wahoo app wattages it would seem to correct itself and both kickr and vectors matched again.

Note I have the classic kickr, not the kickr snap but I read your thread and thought that we experienced similar behavior from the app.
Last edited by: racehd: Nov 26, 15 7:57
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Re: Kickr SNAP [racehd] [ In reply to ]
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I have noticed something similar with the Snap and I think that's an issue with the app itself, not the trainer. When I start a training in erg mode and adjust the power level if doesn't respond, I need to go to a different screen (like resistance) first and then swipe back to erg before it works. Then it works fine. Pretty sure that's an issue with the app itself.

I have yet to try Perfpro (on my to do list ;-) )but have used the Cycleops Virtual Trainer app and the response of the trainer was typically within 2-3 seconds at the most. So the Snap would change the resistance pretty much on time when it would have to based on the course. This is using ANT+ as control via my laptop. I have used Zwift one too and the response time was very slow and erratic. But when I did that, I put my computer further away and put a TV in between so chances are the ANT+ signal got blocked. I've bought a USB extension cable to bring the ANT+ dongle closer to the Snap but haven't tried it yet. I have heard from people with the original Kickr that they needed to use an extension chord so I will assume this will help with that (but again, still have to try it).

Coming from a fluid trainer I have been very happy with the Snap, it has a much better road feel and it is helpful to control power efforts much better.
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Re: Kickr SNAP [Benv] [ In reply to ]
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Benv wrote:
I have noticed something similar with the Snap and I think that's an issue with the app itself, not the trainer. When I start a training in erg mode and adjust the power level if doesn't respond, I need to go to a different screen (like resistance) first and then swipe back to erg before it works. Then it works fine. Pretty sure that's an issue with the app itself.

I have yet to try Perfpro (on my to do list ;-) )but have used the Cycleops Virtual Trainer app and the response of the trainer was typically within 2-3 seconds at the most. So the Snap would change the resistance pretty much on time when it would have to based on the course. This is using ANT+ as control via my laptop. I have used Zwift one too and the response time was very slow and erratic. But when I did that, I put my computer further away and put a TV in between so chances are the ANT+ signal got blocked. I've bought a USB extension cable to bring the ANT+ dongle closer to the Snap but haven't tried it yet. I have heard from people with the original Kickr that they needed to use an extension chord so I will assume this will help with that (but again, still have to try it).

Coming from a fluid trainer I have been very happy with the Snap, it has a much better road feel and it is helpful to control power efforts much better.

You can try it with our software ( Veloreality ) as well and see how that one works. While workout part/ERG mode is not our main course it is functional and is free.
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Re: Kickr SNAP [nord0296] [ In reply to ]
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OT, but the name kills me, it is like Ford marketing the Ford Explosion

I don't want a training device that is going to snap :)
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Re: Kickr SNAP [Benv] [ In reply to ]
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Could be an app issue, I originally thought that too...

With more use I wonder if it's two sided though:
The app doesn't re-assert the setting and somehow the setting was ignored by the trainer. Maybe it's all in the app and it just didn't send it (and doesn't reassert).

I ended up wondering if this issue was related to the failure of the snap to work with steep ramps (see Keeler Needle Trainerroad workout), but maybe that's different altogether.

In my case the snap itself ended up settling on an intermediate set point, from your message I can't tell if you noticed that too, or if only your power meter reflected a different value. I.e. My app showed a set point of 360, but reports power from snap at 260 (and controls it there). This was when stepping the hundreds from 160 to 360.
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Re: Kickr SNAP [nord0296] [ In reply to ]
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nord0296 wrote:
Could be an app issue, I originally thought that too...

With more use I wonder if it's two sided though:
The app doesn't re-assert the setting and somehow the setting was ignored by the trainer. Maybe it's all in the app and it just didn't send it (and doesn't reassert).

I ended up wondering if this issue was related to the failure of the snap to work with steep ramps (see Keeler Needle Trainerroad workout), but maybe that's different altogether.

In my case the snap itself ended up settling on an intermediate set point, from your message I can't tell if you noticed that too, or if only your power meter reflected a different value. I.e. My app showed a set point of 360, but reports power from snap at 260 (and controls it there). This was when stepping the hundreds from 160 to 360.

Myself and another workout-mode-app developer compared notes a while back and we both agreed that the kickr would occasionally ignore ANT+ erg-mode commands, despite sending an acknowledgement that it received them.

The other guy didn't have a simulation mode in his app, but in Tour de Giro the kickr would (or at least used to) regularly get locked into a particular hill slope, necessitating periodic resets of the connection to the kickr.

STAC Zero Trainer - Zero noise, zero tire contact, zero moving parts. Suffer in Silence starting fall 2016
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Re: Kickr SNAP [nord0296] [ In reply to ]
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Have the same issue with the Snap using my Quarq as power source in TR. It can't handle ramp ups at all. I've gotten Zwift to act fairly well in workout mode but at this point its not worth the money to me so I think the Snap will go back to REI and I'll just use my KK Road Machine
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Re: Kickr SNAP [nord0296] [ In reply to ]
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Posted this in another Snap thread, but thought I would post here as well. Just got a Snap last week and having the exact same problems reported here. With Wahoo Fitness app/Utility and TR with the Snap controlling the power its under-reporting by about 20-40 watts with my P2max (P2Max is 40 watts higher than what the Snap is saying). With the PM controlling the resistance any big jump in power between intervals results in a huge lag of up to 90 seconds where the power spikes way up above the interval's level (at 250 watts i was close to 300). After that it seems to adjust and come back down to the right level, but not what i was expecting from the unit. The ramps dont seem to work in TR either on the one set I've tried. I've also had a few brick wall scenarios where I have to stop pedaling completely and let it adjust before starting back up. Still running v27 firmware, plan to upgrade that tonight, but sounds like all the same issues still exist in v28.
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Re: Kickr SNAP [nord0296] [ In reply to ]
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I got my wife a Snap on a black friday deal. She is about 3 rides in and it would seem that it cannot go less than 120 watts in ERG mode. Has anyone else has issues with the Snap not holding low wattages? 120 watts is like 70% of my wifes FTP, it makes recovery intervals not great for recovery.

Wahoo support wants me to do an advanced spin down, how do i go about doing this?

For reference, my regular kickr can hold 60 watts in erg mode.
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Re: Kickr SNAP [MattAune] [ In reply to ]
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I noticed roughly that too, but I believe if I switched to an easier gear it went lower. I assumed that it had trouble lowering resistance at too high of a rotational speed...

I could be mistaken on the 'fix' but definitely saw it's own reported power creeping above my erg setting around 120-130.
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Re: Kickr SNAP [shredz2000] [ In reply to ]
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I am two rides in and expeience most of the same, especially the slow adjust and the brick wall. I think I am fighting the resistance and try to hold cadence constant. Going to keep trying to get used to it.
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Re: Kickr SNAP [MattAune] [ In reply to ]
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Go into the snap in the Fitness app and under spindown there is another option for advanced spindown
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Re: Kickr SNAP [CBJFan] [ In reply to ]
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I received a new SNAP today and after 1 ride it seems better now. The ramps in TR actually worked for the most part and I wasnt getting the huge power spikes when starting new intervals. I did a few spindowns and an advanced spindown and so far it seems much closer to my PM than the last one was. Hopefully that was just a dud unit.
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Re: Kickr SNAP [MattAune] [ In reply to ]
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Noticed the same as my FTP is pretty miserable so solution is little big i.e. 34-25 and then the erg hits all the right targets. Seems odd but it works
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Re: Kickr SNAP [shredz2000] [ In reply to ]
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Good to hear. I'm getting my Snap RMAed as well. Hope that fixes my issue as well.
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Re: Kickr SNAP [MattAune] [ In reply to ]
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MattAune wrote:
I got my wife a Snap on a black friday deal. She is about 3 rides in and it would seem that it cannot go less than 120 watts in ERG mode. Has anyone else has issues with the Snap not holding low wattages? 120 watts is like 70% of my wifes FTP, it makes recovery intervals not great for recovery.

Wahoo support wants me to do an advanced spin down, how do i go about doing this?

For reference, my regular kickr can hold 60 watts in erg mode.


Matt, my wife has had the same issue, the lowest her snap can hold watts in erg mode is in the 80's. This forces her to spin slower in rest intervals. I believe this issue must be related to the relative pressure the roller is putting on the tire. Try putting as little pressure against the tire as you can without having the tire slip. For us that's about 1.25 turns of the knob after tire contact, with 100lbs psi on a 700c 23m tire. That might bring down her minimum watt number a bit. My wife's minimum erg mode number did drop a bit after we did the advanced spin down

Michael
Last edited by: Tri-Mot: Dec 17, 15 19:42
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Re: Kickr SNAP [nord0296] [ In reply to ]
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I bought a SNAP and have yet to take it out of the box. All the issues being reported on ST have me even wondering if it is worth it. I'm coming from an old CT that I only use in erg mode but it is starting to act up which is why I purchased the SNAP.

To everyone with a SNAP...is it worth it or should I just send back? Kicker seems to be having issues too.

Thanks
Hack
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Re: Kickr SNAP [Hack] [ In reply to ]
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I'm running both...food for thought is that people almost only post problems...and quite often (but not always) their is a user component...I had an early Kickr model when the brake would freeze...shipped back at their expense and was replaced...service is great with them...I'd say it's worth it...

There are certainly other solid models as well, and when you search, you will also see people complain with issues...it's par for the course with all brands.
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Re: Kickr SNAP [nord0296] [ In reply to ]
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Have had mine a month now without an issue.

_________________________________
Fit Endurance Coaching - Head Coach|Facebook
USAT L1 Coach | BikeFit Certified Fitter | Contributing Writer - Triathlete Magazine | ROKA
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Re: Kickr SNAP [nord0296] [ In reply to ]
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The latest version of the Windows Beta should handle the ANT connection to the Snap better. We've done a bunch of things to ensure that the changes happen and I believe the connection is very good now.

Have you tried it recently with the latest windows beta?

For low power users on the Snap, we call that a trainer's "Wattage Floor".

With some electronic trainers, there's a minimum wattage needed to spin the rear flywheel at a gearing + cadence (aka speed).

What we recommend is downshifting into your easiest gear if the wattage floor is too high for you. That will make the rear wheel spin slower. That means it won't take as much power to just spin the flywheel.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Kickr SNAP [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Less press on force should do this as well. This is something that I see with a computrainer. The Lab computrainer is accurate as low as 50 W, but if you turn the knob too many times, you create enough force between the tire and friction roller that you can easily go well over that even when there is zero electronic load being added by the load generator.
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Re: Kickr SNAP [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Nate, I appreciate your chiming in.

I haven't tried the latest Beta yet, but I will consider giving it a go on my next ride.

To everyone else --

I've been getting more consistency with my SNAP lately on accuracy, and I've personally never seen the "brick wall" affect some mention.

How I've been getting more consistent numbers is still a little bit of a mystery. I generally spindown the same, with the same knob turns and tire pressure. I will say I have been more particular about the precise turns, PSI and time into my workout I spindown, but really I don't think my use is that different than initial usage. I've had good numbers the last 3 rides or so, but will continue to monitor.
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Re: Kickr SNAP [J_R] [ In reply to ]
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The bummer about press-on force is that it seems like the SNAP doesn't well calibrate itself. At least on my initial usages the main comment Wahoo had was to be sure I had 2 knob turns and 115 PSI in the tire.

It definitely claimed a successful spindown with other parameters but, at least my unit, was off significantly with less turns.
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