My brother's on Atkins...which is basically 0 carbs. I'll email him and ask him to chime in with his thoughts.

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Eli Curt

I'm Professionally Amateur. Are you? Become an ambassador today!
Chimps in Training!

My brother is right I have done an extreme version of the Atkins diet. At my heaviest I was 273 pounds of meat. Over the course of 3 months of cutting out virtually all carbs (minus an occasional piece of something whole wheat) I lost 65 pounds. I was running about 4-5 days a week. No cycling as I was spending the year abroad and had no access to a bike. I also did the occasional weight lifting workout. I believe Atkins allows a certain amount of carbs based on your weight but i figured why not cut out all of them and burn fat for fuel? It worked great.

no - I've not read the book but yes I have tried ketogenic diet for endurance training. For me it works really well, but it's a diet that only works with zero cheating. If you eat any sugar it won't work. You cannot do high intensity training but you can do long slow stuff all day with very little extra fuel. I do this during my base training which also has the added benefit of making sure I don't push myself at too fast a pace. Once I start a build block of higher intensity training, I eat normally.

The broscience in this post is staggering.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

I did a body transformation contest. I lost 75lbs in 84 days on the Ketogenic diet on a major caloric deficit. The winnings from that contest bought my first TT bike. Training wise, I was okay at Zone 1 level work (2hr walks) or short 20-30 minute intervals where rest time matched working set time. I did not pick up Tri until after this but have tried it a few times while during normal Ironman training without success. As soon as I dropped into ketosis my training would suffer dramatically. I would get glycogen depleted too fast even at Z2 work that I was getting nothing beneficial done. I was defiantly burning some protein up too, ammonia smell = not so good. So in summary, it is a loaded question depending on your goals and reasons for looking at the ketogenic diet.

If you have any specific questions let me know I have done a lot of research on this diet

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Dynamic Athlete ProgrammingVIP Endurance Racing | Like us on Facebook Get Your Training Plan Here

understand the difference between fit and healthy
then try to find a diet that combines both for your training
neither low carb / high fat or high carb / low fat does it
either will make you look fit(ER) from your current state but either will make you health(IER) in a long run

its a really stupid idea. outside of having uncontrolled pediatric epilepsy, there isnt a good reason to try it.

your bones will start to demineralize which would increase your chances of stress fractures, your cholesterol will rise, you will increase the likelyhood of developing kidney stones, and you will probably be constipated and if youre a woman, say bye to your regular periods. but you will probably lose weight so i guess its all roses.

seriously, eat a healthy diet with adequate portions and ignore fad diets. they are all bullshit.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

http://eatingacademy.com/

Give it a look and see if its something you are interested in trying.

Changes in fat utilization vs carb utilization usually occur as a direct result of more O2 delivery and increased mitochondrial density in the working muscle group.

I have spent (wasted) a fair amount of time trying to find some sort evidence if diet alone can affect the ratio at which fat is burned in the local muscle group.

Not saying that evidence does not exist but I haven't found it yet.

How you burn fuel is based primarily on how you train leading up to the event and the conditions on the day (pacing, heat etc).

I found my training suffered. I would say that if you are not after peak performance, you can get through training, etc. However, when training really ramped up for me, my performance suffered as well as my overall mood. Take this with a grain of salt because I am sure there were holes in my diet detail. I have since moved back to my old standard 'healthy' diet and my performance and mood have improved.

how often do carnivores get stress fractures?

no idea, i doubt any study has been done. i cant figure out why you are asking since the ketogenic diet is not a carnivorous diet. did you mean to ask if omnivores get stress fractures? if so, then the answer is likely just as often as anyone else. regardless, its well documented that the ketogenic diet is associated with bone demineralization which leads to fractures.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

My mantra is that any diet that has a name is a bad diet.

I lost about 50 lb from my heaviest weight with a lifestyle change. If my diet had to have a name it would be the "Stop Eating So Much Food, You Fat Fuck" Diet.

Nobody wants to hear this though - they want some radical quick fix using the "secret doctors don't want you to know".

DASH diet.

That's the problem with blanket application. It's not always true.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

for the most part marlonius is correct. the DASH diest essentially follows what medicine has been saying about healthy eating for years. low sodium, plenty of fruits and veggies, whole grains and low fat. giving it a catchy acronym doesnt change that.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

You have now :-)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...es&dbfrom=pubmed

TBH, If got more (somewhere) but cant really be bothered digging them out!

are you a carnivore?

ironically, i think syntheic is a vegetarian or vegan like me.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

Classic! I wonder if that book would sell?

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http://www.fuelforendurance.com

Just remember Ketosis is one thing and ketoacidosis is an entirely different and much more dangerous state to be in.

As for the whole "food groups" argument going on here I simply hate that someone created such a tag line. There are really only two food groups. Food that is good for you and food that is bad for you. Eat from the good list and you will look feel and perform great.

What is your goal in trying to get into ketosis? Do you have a vast quantity of weight to lose?

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Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach

Its a good idea if you want heart disease and to not get more fit.

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Michael J. Pelechaty
Brewer, Black Box Brewing Co.

"Yeah, I was depressed for a little while, but then I remembered how awesome I am."

Wow,

They had 53% fat, crazy. I thought that people who had that much fat were well....um maybe fat!

I am not sure though with the drop in RER and BL at threshold why they didn't get faster, maybe requires longer than 5 weeks for adaptations in speed to occur.

Interesting results though, thanks for the link.

I'm off to have nachos and wings and buy some bacon on the way home ;)

I was in Ketosis over the summer trying to lose the last 10 lbs before a HIM. Training really sucked. I had zero energy for it. I did lose some weight though.

I would do ketosis before you start training. That is what I'm doing right now. I literally just started restricting carbs yesterday. I plan on eating a ketogenic diet to get rid of all the weight I've gained since summer and then once I'm at a weight I'm satisfied with I'll start eating a normal diet and start training so I don't gain it back.

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Wht not eat a healthy diet with smaller portions while you excersize? Its very effective and There is absolutely no healthier way to lose weight.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

I've tied that but I couldn't do it. I don't eat that much to begin with so I don't have that much to cut. I just end up starving myself.

I'm not overweight and I can maintain my body weight pretty easily but over the offseason I put on a few pounds that are hard to get rid of. I like ketosis because I can knock off the excess weight in a few weeks and I don't have to starve myself.

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I'm more concerned with performance than losing weight. I have tried a vegetarian diet and a low fat diet. Both leave me feeling like crap. I've tried a ketogenic diet before and felt really good. I just never tried a ketogenic diet while training. I just wanted to see if anyone else had good results with training and/or has read the book.

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A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
Albert Einstein

Thanks for the feedback

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A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
Albert Einstein

being a vegan for ethical reasons, i would prefer others do the same. However, i wouldnt argue that a well balanced omnivore diet would not be healthy. I would recommend that over a ketogenic diet for reasons i laid out earlier in the thread. The risks outweigh the benefits and better results can be attained by eating well, and burning more calories than you consume.
Your performance will be better as well.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

From what I have read, kidney stones are a result of a high protein diet. A ketogenic diet is high fat, not high protein diet. I tried a vegan diet before. Felt like hell and was constantly injured. Not the diet for me.

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A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
Albert Einstein

Best advice yet.

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Quote:

From what I have read, kidney stones are a result of a high protein diet. A ketogenic diet is high fat, not high protein diet.

kidney stones are a result of a variety of circumstances including genetics and dehydration.

kidney stones from a ketogeic diet are the result of a combination of things:

demineralization of calcium in the bones means excess calcium in your system and it ends up in the kidneys

uric acid doesnt dislove because of the change in your urine ph

the diet leads to a low concentration of citrate. citrate helps dissolve calcium and as i already pointed out, you will have excess calcium leaching from your bones.

i am familiar with the diet from my studies in pediatric epilepsy. (see my signature) the diet is usually tried as a last result when seizures are not controlled by medications. even then its only effective at controlling seizures in half of the people who try it. when it is tried its normally done so under the care of a small team of medical professionals to monitor it.

i realize that this is not the reason to try the diet being discussed here, but im trying to impress upon readers that its not something to mess with. it wont make anyone faster than eating a well balanced diet will and you are putting your health at risk unnecessarily.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

Yes, I second this. Ketogenic diet is terrible idea. I strongly recommend against it. Want to lose weight? Makes calories IN less than calories OUT. And do it in a healthy way that is sustainable.

 
thanks for the feedback.

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A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
Albert Einstein

I haven't even been able to give it away! To try and drum up interest, I've tried reading excerpts to strangers on public transit, but have mostly been met with confusion and defensiveness.

A more serious answer: I lost weight from 2006 through 2009 (approx 35 lb of that 50) and then got really serious in 2010 and got the last 15 off, leaving me quite lean. This was the hardest part, though maintaining the loss through the habits I learned during the first 35 lb has been pretty easy. People that have known me long term want to know my secret, and people that have only "known me slim" believe that I am one of the gifted few who is naturally lean.

I was always active and got lots of exercise. I didn't get lean until I concentrated on my diet.

Many ask me for advice, none take it. The reality is not exciting or glamourous enough. I used to take people's solicitations of advice seriously and would talk at length about portion control, caloric balance and all the rest, but lately I've felt it's a waste of my time and give them a more abridged version, which happens to be both the name of my diet and its catchphrase.

My wife (also a fit triathlete) has only one success story - a coworker who was inspired by her lifestyle changed his habits and choices and over the course of 2 years has lost close to 100 lb, going from 265 to 175 lb. He is now a big proponet of the Stop Eating So Much Food, You Fat Fuck diet (SESMFYFF, pronounced "Cease-Muff"), and is himself frustrated by the same phenomena - nobody wants to face reality and they think he has some other secret.

If you want some actual resources and not just the typical bitching on this topic, check out Dr. Peter Attia's work, the link is for a general overview, but poke around the site-lots of info on endurance training and ketosis.

http://eatingacademy.com/...erstood-state-part-i

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Professional Athlete: http://jordancheyne.wordpress.com/ http://www.strava.com/athletes/145340

Coaching Services:http://www.peakformcoaching.com/

One of our physiologists, an ultra-runner, did a block of carb depletion. His thoughts are recorded in this 3 part blog series.

http://www.bouldersportsmedicine.org/blog/109313/7683/
http://www.bouldersportsmedicine.org/blog/109313/7684/
http://www.bouldersportsmedicine.org/blog/109313/7685/


My thoughts are this:
Most performance studies utilize a distance similar to 10k, which is a very high intensity effort. I do not believe that a high fat / high protein or low carb diet will improve performance.


I don't even think that those diet strategies will make a difference in performance at all.

However, what the diet will effect is substrate utilization and if you are competing in an event where substrate is a limiting factor- IE long endurance events such as Ultra-running or full/half ironman that they may be beneficial.


Even if you aren't faster, you will need to consume less calories. This decreases the risk of GI distress and decreases the time spent refueling, both of which can impact finish time.


Therefore in certain applications it may have a performance benefit, but like most things it cannot be a universal recommendation.

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I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com

I was just playing with ratios as soon as you cut carbs training suffers. Mind you I am working at higher intensity. It may work for very low intensity like walking. But are you walking your whole triathlon? I am back on a normal "healthy" diet. Just watching cals in and cals out and training paces have skyrocketed along with being in a better mood. If you don't have epilepsy then don't bother. Eat healthy train hard and rest up.

D

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Chris Rock: man, I wouldn't do that shit if I was you!

Eat carbs. Eat fiber. Eat protein. Eat moderate quantities of non-sat fats.

Don't eat refined sugar.

There ya go.

Here's my rule...

If a "diet" has a name I don't do it.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

blow your brain up:

http://eatingacademy.com/...e-and-ketosis-part-i

http://eatingacademy.com/...erstood-state-part-i

It's an interesting (somewhat of) a case study, but that's pretty much it. Moreover, the main question is: does it make you faster?

On one of his videos:

"Most of the dietary recommendations made in the United States are not firmly grounded in well-controlled science. The implications for this are profound, especially at a time where two-thirds of Americans are overweight and obesity and its related diseases – diabetes, heart disease, cancer, and Alzheimer’s disease to name a few – are claiming the lives of more people each year. In this presentation, Peter Attia takes a close look at one such pillar of dietary wisdom, the recommendation that Americans minimize their consumption of dietary cholesterol and fat in an effort to reduce heart disease."

The reason Americans (and the rest of the modern world) are getting fatter isn't because the dietary rec. aren't supported by evidence. They ARE. On the other hand, what he says...well go over check pubmed...unless he is specifically targeting kids with uncontrolled epileptic seizures.

regardless if it made you fatser, which seems dubious, its not a healthy diet.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

I think any diet that makes you "fatser" isn't healthy. :p

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Low carb was the best choice I made in nutritional plans. Dropped 30 lbs from 2009-2011 and won the National Championships. Not to say I could possibly say the "diet" was the single thing that helped me but it was part of the program...and I tried a bunch of nutritional plans.

Interested? Then, I think this is the go to website for information: http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/. Jimmy has an awesome, informative podcast, too.

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life's short. ride hard.
bill
mobile: 404-242-5966
rustylion54@gmail.com

Touche!!

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

you keep repeating this; can you provide some peer reviewed research backing your claim?

the inverse diet, can also be considered unhealthy too.

I have been on a pretty strict paleo(ish) ketogenic diet for about 3 months.

My energy is through the riff and have dropped my 5k time 2 minutes in that time frame.

I recover faster, feel better and all around better mood.

Not saying its for everyone but it works for me

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Yellowfin Endurance Coaching and Bike Fits
USAT Level 1, USAC Level 3

two things, the burden of proof rests with the person who postulates the ketogenic diet is healthy. ignoring that, i will indulge you. here ya go, read up the best thing that can be said is that there is not a strong consensus however, given the extra risks associated with carbohydrate restricted diets, you have much to overcome to say they are healthy.

how many other "healthy" diets do you know of that retard growth, weaken bones, lead to amenorrhea....

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

I think it would sell great!

"Chapter One:

Eat less, exercise more.

The End"

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http://nathankillam.com - Professional Triathlete
https://twitter.com/nathankillam
https://www.facebook.com/nathan.killam.3
http://instagram.com/nathankillam/

pubmed ketogenic diet side effects. Try it.

Tried it and couldn't see too much bad stuff in the first few pages of results...unless increased quality of life for advanced cancer patients is a negative??

Everything has positives and negatives, including racing triathlons.

Each to their own I suppose...

Tried harder then....
Yes it has positive effects in some instances for cancer patients. Unless everyone here is a cancer patient, it's still a dangerous 'diet'. Chemotherapy is
also good for cancer patients...should we all try? I love the 'to each their own' comments, and how people are so willingly discarding science whenever
they want to believe whatever they want...ketogenic diet, vaccines are dangerous, Earth is 6000yo.
Yes KD can be used for some cohorts of patients. And used very effectively. Obese folks, people with DM, uncontrollable epilepsy, etc. Unless you're in this
case, it's not a healthy way of eating. If you don't look just at the summary of the results in pubmed, but take the time to look at the inclusion and exclusion
criteria for the studies, you may realize that it's not supposed to be a way of eating, but rather a way to address diseases with nutrition. You can also look at
all the data and recommendation on the CDC website, or HHR. CDC is clearer I think.

I could study pubmed for many, many weeks, ( I do when Im bored actually) and like everything on there, I would find positive and negative outcomes.

To make a blanket statement like a KD is dangerous is just not right. For example, there are lots of studies that show that a KD could increase your chances of a cardiac event due to raised cholesterol, etc, however, there are just as many that say the opposite, that a KD may actually prevent a cardiac event.

My point was this. Like everything else in life, be it training, rx drugs or anything else one might consider, we all react differently.
One mans elixor is another mans poison. You need to try it for yourself (well maybe you dont, but those interested in a KD).

Trying it for 30 days in the off season isnt going to kill you. If it doesnt work for you, then it doesnt work for you and thats fine.
Personally, I know that I feel way better while on a KD. My BP drops, my triglycerides drop, my chol levels are great and I feel like I can train for ever.

BUT, and its a big BUT, I dont eat that way for one very, very good reason. Beer.
Beer kicks me out of ketosis and it takes me forever to get back into keto while eating ~50-70g carb/day, or I have to be strict with my carb intake.

So, I drink beer (often too much) and take medication for my bp (everything else is ok, but interestingly my triglycerides are higher while not on a KD)
Maybe its time for a new years resolution regarding beer...

True, which is why francois said to look at the totality of research.

Even looking at individual studies its clear that some can be ignored because they are poorly conducted.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

Trying for a month won't kill you and will yield positive effects. Doesn't mean it's not dangerous. That's why there are studies to look at and I said look at inclusion and exclusion criteria.

Given the comments I guess for most here it's not about science it's about believing so I will stop wasting my time.

Agreed

Interesting thread. I did IMCdA this year. My stomach shut down on the bike and I bonked (literally blacked out) in T2. It was all I could do to finish the race.

I am doing the Dallas Marathon in a week. I read the book and went LCHF two weeks ago. I will let you know how it goes. My weekend runs last week sucked ass. I could tell I was totally glycogen depleted. My run this morning felt normal. I am not ST fast, but I ran 5 miles in 40 minutes this morning which is about as fast as I run 5 miles unless I am actually racing. I will let you know how the race goes.

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Panabax

We’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.—Robert Wilensky

My son has a severe epilepsy so we did the keto diet with him for over a year. Is the keto diet you guys talk about the same ultra-strict type that we had to use? I can't imagine ever doing something like this for an unproven performance gain. We spent a good part of our weekends doing nothing but coming up with precise menus and weighing tiny amounts of food in perfect proportions to prepare for the week ahead. We had to weigh to the gram, and he had to eat every single morsel or it wouldn't work. The main ingredient we used was heavy cream (that is until we tried dairy and gluten free keto - yikes!). We'd do anything for our kid of course, but it was truly a miserable way to live. And it caused other issues, like constipation so bad that we had to start giving him twice a day enemas. And, of course you have to monitor urine (and blood in our case) to make sure you are remaining in ketosis and have the correct glucose levels. IF the keto discussed here is the same that is used for epilepsy, than I can only say that it is much harder than it sounds.

dude have you seen jurassic park: the lost world? the baby t-rex broke its leg. you've obviously been debunked by facts.

It is indeed the same diet they are advocating. Thank you for chiming in with your experiences. my heart goes out to you. My son also has epilepsy although we are extremely fortunate that his seizures are well controlled by medication.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

Read the book "why we get fat" and some of you will change your minds. It is not about calories in and calories out, it is about eating the right calories. Glad it has worked for you

I'm full on into this. Here's my two interviews with Peter Attia, who is a whiz with this stuff:

http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/...sting-low-carb-diet/

and

http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/...w-carbohydrate-diet/

Hope that helps.

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Ben Greenfield

Nutrition & Human Performance Advice
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com

no offense Ben. But your posts have lost a touch of credibility with your power bracelet pedaling.

Im bored :-)

Just search pubmed using the terms "ketogenic diet retard growth"
Not a single article came back using those terms.
Dropped the retard search term and got 230 articles.
Havent found one yet (not all the way through them yet) that has anything adverse to say. Some have said that a KD is no more efficient than a typical wetern diet for weight loss (no surprise there)
Many are concerned with the reduced rate of prostate cancer and malignant brain tumor growth associated with KD.
Will sort through the rest another day, but havent been scared off as yet.

About to search for weaken bones.

There certainly does appear to be an issue with KD diets and loss of bone density.
The mechanism is unclear (from the papers I read), but it does exist.

Certainly something to be weary of.

Absolutely no references on pubmed to KD's and amenorrhea (had to google it, always good to learn something new!)
Now knowing what it actually is, I dont think its something I have to worry about (if it actually exists)

Kidney stones is also a possible side effect, but I havent been able to find rates of stones in those on a KD vs those on a normal western diet.
There are some crazy site out there though...one site I visited (partially) blames the rise of kidney stones in children to global warming ( I shit you not!)

Anyway, later peeps. Got a race in the morning hear downunder!

You're entitled to your own opinion...and spelling.

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Ben Greenfield

Nutrition & Human Performance Advice
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com

I'm curious: where do you see a spelling error in his post?

Or maybe it is because researchers tend to use ketogenic diet when it's usually used as a 'treatment option' (epilepsy and other brain mysregulations), whereas those who don't want to 'make it sound cool' i.e. when targeting the general population, tend to call it 'low carb, high protein, etc' or 'Atkins...' You can find plenty of articles mentioning the side effects of KD-like diets.

I do believe Daniel Patrick Moynihan has a pithy response for you.....

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. His is far less likely to be bat shit crazy than yours...

John

---

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Hrm.

http://www.nature.com/...3/abs/pr200478a.html - impaired brain growth, impaired visual/spatial learning and memory.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/...ii/S0165380600001309 - KD rats had impaired learning and impaired weight gain
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/...2.tb00769.x/abstract - very young children show poor growth on a ketogenic diet
http://www.sciencedirect.com/...ii/S0002822305001537 - height significantly impacted by ketogenic diet.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/...57.2003.57002.x/full - significant portion of adolescent females reported menstrual effects
Many of the other studies cited list menstrual problems as a side effect of a KD

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/88/6/1678.short - bone loss in children on KD
http://link.springer.com/...2FBF02441213?LI=true - bone loss on KD, can me mitigated by Vit D and other supplementation

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

First off i think its quite awesome that you take the time to try and research claims. My hats off to you, sir.

Second, like francois said, try more generic search terms. Here is something anyone, like myself, without access to pubmed can do:

Google " low carbohydrate diet retard growth" and click on scholarly articles. Its been demonstrated in both human and nonhuman animals.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

Peddle: to sell.
Pedal: to ride [a bike].

Ben has been accused of riding a power bracelet. This, of course, casts aspersions on his credibility.

Francois aint from around these here parts.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

That is not a spelling error. That is a grammatical error. Fail x2.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

I know peddle and pedal. I thought he was referring to pedaling vs pedalling. Both are correct.

I actually thought it was a (nice) pun given how Ben pedals around his products ;)

Unless he thought that was the correct spelling of the cotrect word. ;-)

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

I'm at the end of a biochemistry class - and I happened to take a test yesterday that included ketogenisis - so this thread is pretty interesting to me. For those of you who don't know, the main focus of Biochemistry are metabolic pathways. We either synthesize biomolecules or we break them down (catabolism). The purpose of synthesis is usually to store energy and the purpose of catabolism is usually to create energy that can be used by our body.

My main take-away from this class is that there are efficient ways for our body to do all these processes and inefficient ways for our body to do these processes. Given a choice the most efficient processes take over. That's why it's important to have a lot of glycogen stored before a big race - because otherwise you have to switch over to fat breakdown - which is less efficient. That's what happens when we hit "the wall" - our body has no choice but to rely on these much less efficient metabolic pathways to supply energy to our muscles.

Ketogenesis only happens when we have a lot of Acetyl-CoA left over from the Citric Acid Cycle. The only reason we would have a large amount of Acetyl-CoA is that we don't have the proper intermediates to continue the citric acid cycle. This usually only occurs in starvation or uncontrolled diabetes. If your body is actually using Ketone bodies (one of which is acetone) for fuel you are in a bad place. If you have too many ketone bodies in your system the pH will go down and you may experience ketosis, which can lead to coma or death. One test for ketosis is to smell someone's breath - if it smells like acetone (nail polish remover) it's probably time for them to go to the hospital.

Most of people on this thread who seem to have had success with the "Ketogenic Diet" talk about losing 50-100 pounds. I guess you guys want to force your body to use inefficient metabolic pathways because that will help you lose weight. But, for people who are at a normal weight this seems like a really stupid plan if you want better athletic performance. In order to have the best performance you want your body to use the most efficient processes possible. That means having a decent amount of glycogen - which means you need to eat carbs. I agree that you don't need to eat a bunch of refined sugar (again because that can mess with how your body regulates these metabolic processes - and might lead to carrying extra fat) - but to purposely make your body do something that's very unnatural (produce ketone bodies) seems like it's not worth the risk. Even if you don't experience ketosis - you may be permenantly changing how your body regulates your metabolism (hormone signals from insulin and glucagon) - furthermore, not all tissues can even use ketone bodies for energy (e.g. the liver) - so, you might be doing damage to those organs if you are relying on ketone bodies for energy.

I read a quote somewhere...if you really want to learn about nutrition, talk to a biochemist. I'd like to think that is pretty true.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Just a little clarification: ketoacidosis, which is what you are describing above is a life threatening condition that occurs in diabetics (type 1 mainly) due to the near absence of insulin. People on the ketogenic diet are not going to get into a state of ketoacidosis. Ketosis is a state where the body has started using ketones as a source of energy (carbohydrates are still present, they just aren't meeting the full metabolic needs of the body).

Without biochemistry, we would have no idea whats actually happening in there.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

I read this entire thread and no one recommended the Primal Blueprint Cookbook. Written by 2 successful triathletes (retired). Very sensible potentially ketogenic diet in my opinion.

I'm constantly amazed that people believe the laws of physics don't apply to our bodily functions.

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Don Larkin
Reach For More
http://www.reachformore.fit/
USAT Lvl1 Coach, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, BS Exercise Science

Unfortunately its not just related to bodily functions. too many people are too quick to discount every branch of science.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

Calories in, calories out is oversimplified and is almost impossible for many to adhere to long term. It is also important to note that exercise and diet are not mutually exclusive in terms of appetite. I trained a lot more than ever this year but I also ate a lot more than in the past. Exercise creates hunger.

Genetics play a huge role in which diet works best for an individual. The health authorities suggest a diet high in carbs but obesity is at an all time high and it is not due to folks being lazy. Overeating carbs makes you run high insulin levels and can lead to insulin resistance. Trigs also run very high in folks who have diets high in carbs.

I have friends that are vegans and it has transformed them, I have a friend who does Paleo and he is about the most in shape guy I know. There is no one size fits all here. I would say that eating very little to no carbs would be difficult for an endurance athlete but may work for non athletes.

I speak with Endos on an almost daily basis. Why do you think that type 2 diabetics need to carb count? This doesn't mean going ketogenic is the solution but calories in, calories out is not the only answer.

Regardless of all that, consume more calories than you burn and gain weight, or consume fewer calories than you burn and lose weight.

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Don Larkin
Reach For More
http://www.reachformore.fit/
USAT Lvl1 Coach, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, BS Exercise Science

It is absolutely the only way to lose weight outside of surgery. Regardless of genetics or willpower, it is the only answer.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

Isn't this statement really putting the conclusion before the data? Isn't the whole purpose of science to break through our preconceived notions of truth (or what is natural) and determine based on data what is fact and then draw conclusions from the data rather that interpret the data to support a particular conclusion?

Part of the data in Phinney's NK performance book shows endurance cyclists greatly improving the efficiency with which they were able to oxidize fatty acids. Two of the participants in one of the studies cited in the book were adapted to burning 2 grams of fat per minute. At 100 grams per hour that's 900 kcal per hour. That is huge and would go a long way to sparing an athlete's coveted glycogen stores.

I think it is a perfectly reasonable hypothesis to suggest that the body can adapt to and become more efficient at oxidizing fat in the same way that the body adapts to aerobic exercise to create greater aerobic capacity. I'm not saying its safe or effective or even a good idea. I am saying it is worth a good empirical look.

After all, science is not a Stevens of the truth about our world. It is just a snapshot of what we think we know based on what we can observe. The most basic principle of science is "prove me wrong." in fact, science is a continuing cycle of really smart people of good faith being proven wrong. Most honest scientists, especially epidemiologists, will readily admit that one should take all their data with a grain of salt. One of the purposes for publication is to give others an opportunity to test the hypothesis and the methods. Remember that these guys are the ones that brought you HFCS, margarine and trans fat.

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Panabax

We’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.—Robert Wilensky

Isn't an endurance athlete's ability to oxidize fats at a higher percentage of their max output what aerobic fitness really comes down to?

I mean that's what our body works to achieve via stimulus through endurance training. It's not like elite athletes store materially different amounts of glycogen than the average athlete (please do correct me if I'm wrong on this one), so fat metabolism rates are the real kicker in determining the speed we can do these races at.

If you were trying to suggest something else, then please rephrase.

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The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock

I guess my point was that fat oxidation is not the only adaptation that is taking place with aerobic training. Aerobic capacity is necessarily the ability to oxidize something, but the limiting factor in any given individual may or may not be the ability to mobilize fuel from our stores. In other words, I started in 2011 from an untrained state. My aerobic exercise increased the size and stroke of my heart and the thickness of my LV. I am sure that there are many more capillary blood vessels in my legs so that the oxygen coming into my lungs can be delivered to my muscles more efficiently. I am certain I have more slow twitch muscle fiber in my legs than I did which further increases my ability to oxidize fuel. The body adapts to all types of stress by making adaptations. My point was maybe training the body in the absence of carbs will cause adaptations to increase the efficiency with which fat is mobilized so that higher outputs can be achieved without glucose as a fuel source. Previously, I was working on the assumption that I could only go "so" fast on fat and to go any faster required more glucose per mile. I think that premise is worth proving or disproving. Right now I am running about as fast as I ever had and I haven't eaten any substantial carbs for over two weeks. Last weekend, however, sucked a$$. Now, with the understanding that most of you probably warm up faster than I run flat out, the switch to fat as a primary fuel source does not seem to be effecting my performance now (it did last weekend for sure). Wouldn't it be nice not to eat all that damn GU in an Ironman race?

I think the general consensus is that fat metabolism is not the key to going fast. Rather, it is training, speed work, VO2 Max natural ability, and so forth. It is part of the key to going long, but the real "trick" as I understood it was to burn enough fat so you could take on enough carbs to finish an IM distance race with some carbs left. It it were not for the fact that there is a limit to how much sugar you can digest, fat would not enter the equation at all for the current prevailing mind set, or so it seems.

Hell, what do I know. I'm not claiming to know anything. I just think science works both ways and the fact that data support one conclusion do not mean that that same data precludes some other seemingly contrary conclusion. You have to test the contrary conclusion in the same way you tested the primary conclusion.

But hell, I like running today. That is a gift.

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Panabax

We’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.—Robert Wilensky

I would like to think it is true as well but it just doesn't always work that way. Biochemists tend to be rather granular folks. This is great for developing a thorough understanding of a limited number of processes. Unfortunately, our bodies are not a limited number of processes and it becomes easy to miss the forest for the trees. The theory behind jejunoileal bypass, for instance, was pretty solid even though the reality was increased morbidity.

Things which "work" in theory biochemically don't always actually work in practice. This is why I tend to trust actual trials with actual humans. Unfortunately, the funding just isn't there for most of these sorts of trials and so we end up with small n's and crappy sample designs whose results can be argued over.

Still, it is often the best we have. I tend to trust in my inability to understand at a theoretical/biochemical level how something will actually impact overall health.

Hey Panabax,

Hopefully I didn't come across wrong, but I really think you're chasing a red herring.

Have a read of this 3 part series on running economy (it's good stuff!):

http://www.sportsscientists.com/...-economy-part-i.html
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/12/running-economy-part-ii.html
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/12/running-economy-part-iii.html

A lot of the training terms you elucidate are going to reduce to the two most important energy terms we *really* care about in endurance sports (ESPECIALLY ultra-distance events like an Ironman). Please note this isn't definitive, but more a first-order approximation. (Nor do I assume to know how to train these factors)

- Economy (amount of energy required to move X distance), which tends to include how "well" you move at a certain velocity (swim stroke, aero on the bike, minimal excess movement while running). I don't think there's a HUGE difference

- Fat oxidation rates, which includes effects like sustainable cardiovascular output, vasculature in the muscle, mitochondrial density, etc.

Both terms are the sum/product of multiple factors.

Improved economy lowers the total amount of energy we need to get across the finish line.

At a given glycogen reserve, the higher our fat oxidation rate, the more total energy we can burn per minute.

In short--we're saying the same thing :)

I don't think you're going to get any material training benefit from eating a low carb diet. Your body is *maybe* getting better at gluconeogenesis (and the preceding pathway to get there from fats) at a rate quicker than you would under a balanced diet, but I kind of doubt it. I'm pretty sure your workouts are tapping into your established glycogen supplies, which just means you're hampering your ability to recover from a workout, which will swamp out any other marginal training effect.

Unless you're wiling to go *very* slowly, there's no good way to avoid eating carbohydrates during an ironman. To a zeroth order, the person who can burn the most calories per kg body weight will winn, which means using every possible mechanism our body has in place. :)

Hope the run went well and your training continues to improve.

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The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock

See EF Coyle in pubmed...lots of good stuff.

:) I was trying to avoid linking all that literature in. I probably failed in simplifying my description by too much.

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The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock

I will review the articles you cited. Thanks for that. I'm in my last couple days of taper before my marathon on Sunday. My training runs are back to where they were while I was eating a more conventional diet. I have already decided to take on 100 kcal every 5 miles on the run, so I won't generate much useable data as a result of my performance - unless I bonk anyway from depleted glycogen levels.


So, for me, the interesting question is can I influence my fat oxidation rate at any given output merely by restricting carbs and existing in a ketogenic state, holding everything else constant. If so, that might be good to know.

Thanks again.

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Panabax

We’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.—Robert Wilensky

This is also a very important set of distinctions to make when discussing these diets. A low carb diet isn't necessarily the same as a ketogenic diet used for treating epilepsy (and usually they're very very different). The classic ketogenic diet has a ratio of fats to carbs+protein of 4:1 or even higher. Many of the diets I've seen called "ketogenic diets" do not come close to that.

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Yeah, it's a great bike but the engine needs work.

I did the Dallas Marathon yesterday. It was unseasonably hot and humid. I ran a 4:08 which was a little disappointing but for my first open Marathon, I probably set my expectations too high. I maintained a LCHF diet through the last three weeks of training. I did, however, consume 6 gels during the race (miles 1, 5, 9, 13, 17 and 21). My cardio was fine. My nutrition seemed fine (I didn't bonk) but my legs were complaining the last 5 miles and especially the last two. I also had self imposed problems with my 910XT which complicated my pacing. I started experimenting with the LCHF diet too late in the training cycle to know how long and how fast I could go in training on just fat and stored glycogen (thus all the gels). Perhaps I can get a better handle on those factors as I switch to training for the Lonestar 70.3. It may well be that I run so damn slow that I don't burn much glucose. :-)

What I did learn is that 26 miles is a long way to run.

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Panabax

We’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.—Robert Wilensky

Even longer when you eff with your nutrition and change your diet around three weeks out...

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Well said!

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Panabax

We’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.—Robert Wilensky

I'm not sure if anyone posted in this thread, but here is a pretty comprehensive keto calculator I stumbled across this morning.

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"Though she be but little, she is fierce" ~Shakespeare | Powered by HD Coaching | 2014 Wattie Ink Triathlon Team | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

seeing this thread pop up again id like to mention my performances using carb cycling.

I train 100mpw with minimal carbs which come from raw veggies. Only night before the marathon I eat a large soft baked pretzel for carbs. The race I did 3:06:28 just using 2 gels - my peak run with out nutrition was 20.5 miles. Right now i am a week out from next marathon, with my no nutrition long run at 23 miles (3:10) most of my long runs 1 minute slower than race pace

You may find this of interest - I'll be doing a talk show on this very topic on Thursday this week, 4PST/7EST at:

http://www.askthelowcarbexperts.com/

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Ben Greenfield

Nutrition & Human Performance Advice
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com

I apologize if someone posted this already but here is a post from Bob Seebohar who has been experimenting with Low Carb/High Fat for ultra events. I'm racing short distance this year so am not tempted to test it out, but it might be of interest to you.

http://bobseebohar.blogspot.com/...-results-are-in.html

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Founder: BestBikeSplit
Amazonian

Thanks for the information:o)

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A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
Albert Einstein

After reading the Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance I decided to implement this lifestyle and see if this works well for me. The following "story" shows the progression of my diet and overall body comp, and general perception of how I feel and train.


Background;


25 years old, 185 lbs +/-, years in tri -2, larger build with broad shoulder and chest, large legs due to years of hockey training.
Played high level hockey (up to University level) all my life. Training consisted of power, fastwitch, dynamic movement based exercises and workouts. I was involved in many others sports my whole life and generally quite athletic. I had no dietary discipline until age 21. I was able to stay relatively fit and was a successful athlete by just "eating normal."


When I was 19-21 I moved away to the eastern states to play university hockey. Living a campus lifestyle and lack of home cooking I experienced a 20 lb weight gain from 2007 - 2008. I was playing hockey 6 days a week and also still training. This leads me to believe that the switch from home cooked meals to campus meals had a pretty severe effect on my body composition. I was carrying extra weight but my performance did not suffer to much.

The next season I went back to Alberta and "red shirted" with the U of A hockey team. Still practicing and training, but no game play, I gained another 20 lbs. over the 2008 - 2009 season.


March 2009: Since I knew I was eligible to participate in game play the next season (2009 - 2010) I decided to "get back in game shape"


Diet Experiment 1: March 2009 - February 2011


Eliminated all carbs, sugar (except for fruit), and generally ate meat and veggies. Training was consistent with my past hockey training, although I also upped the running and more bodyweight work on my own time. Before bed I would do 200 situps and 100 pushups. Went from 240 lbs in March to 185 lbs at fitness testing in Sept 2009. VO2 max was 60, scored top class on all tests. On ice performance was incredible and had a outstanding season.


* implemented some quinoa and wild rice back into diet that year and the occasional carb load or cheat evening. Stayed in low 180's the whole time, ab definition, great performance.


Diet Experiment 2: March 2011 - March 2012 (finished playing competitive hockey)


Tim Ferris - Slow Carb Diet.


First year in tri, still had a more fast twitch, weight training heavy regimen. Body comps remained the same and fitness was the same. 2 races, good results for first year in sport.


Diet Experiment 3: March 2012 - December 2012 (full dedication to tri)


Vegan Diet


Massive volume increase in all 3 sports. Integrated way more carbs, fruit, and (bad vegan options) into my diet. No weight training due to job and tri training volumes needed to be met. New job, new city, new responsibilities. 23 yrs old.


Result: Negative effect on body comp. Lost muscle and increased fat. Massive swings in blood sugar, energy, mood, and overall well being. Did however have a successful season; 1 sprint, 2 HIM, 1 IM (first, 11:30). Gained weight.


Diet Experiment 3: January 2013 - Present (best tri training yet)


Ketosis


Body Comp is returning. lost 5 lbs, muscle definition is coming back. Energy levels are balanced. Training is great and I am exceeding my performance goals so far. Currently doing 100 runs / 100 days and feeling great. Weight training 3 x per week, and body weight exercises which focus on legs more.


Conclusion


I perform better and feel better on a Low Carb diet. (65% fat, 30% protein, 5% carb) Body is keto adapted and monitor ketosis with keto stix. Goal is to get from current weight of 185 to 170 by April 1. Recovery is quick.


Never felt better.

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the suffer, the pain, the reward

R Wolansky

based on your post you seem to overlook something. what you eat doesnt have an effect on your body composition. its HOW MUCH you eat.

you gained weight switching to "campus food" because you ate more than you needed. no other reason.

for the millionth time, ketogenic diets for exercise arent a good idea. they are only a good idea as a last resort for uncontrolled epilepsy.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

If we remove the "campus food" years and look at when I was in "shape" ie: after the large weight loss, these are my thoughts.


From my own experience on the last two eating regimen's I was on, what I eat DOES contribute to how MY body composition it affected. When I look at my vegan diet vs traditional keto diet; it is evident that the keto food choices work better with my body.

Point 1) My total caloric intake was far lower on a vegan diet vs my keto diet. I tracked this with my fitness pal. This contradicts the traditional calories in vs calories out.

Point 2) Since my vegan diet was in the heart of tri season my body composition change was not a product of lack or exercise or over eating (which was explained in point 1).

Point 3) Once I removed soy, and dialed back the loads of veggies and fruit I was eating; and replaced this with eggs, fish, and premium green veggies which are low carb, my body comp changed quite rapidly. Not only from the water loss, but after 3 weeks I could see old definition I used to have.

Long story short, I think that each athlete should experiment and figure out the right balance for them. What worked for me, may not work for others. My biggest success is being able to be conscious of the dietary changes and the effect on my own body. It is a life long journey and at 25 yrs old, I am hoping I can dial in a good balance which works for me now, so that when I am 40 years old I am not shooting aimlessly into the dark.


*I am pretty sure the keto diet designed for epilepsy is far more stringent then the diet outlined in Phinney and Volek's Low Carb for Performance Athletes. In fact the ratio's are quite different:


Keto for epilepsy -The diet is usually started in a 4:1 ratio (4 parts fat to 1 part protein and carbohydrate.


Keto for endurance athlete (what I implement) - 65% +/- fat , 30% +/- protein, 5% carbs (net)

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the suffer, the pain, the reward

R Wolansky

I have been trying to get the same results on the same style diet. I find I can not get quality intensity work while in ketosis. Have re incorporated carbs and performance has increased energy levels are better but weight/body comp stays the same. I am temped to try keto again because I continue to hear success stories and it is a fun diet. How are you fueling around your workouts?

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This has been my weekly schedule since jan.

Monday - Tempo run 1 hr, weights 1 hr
Tues - am swim, run 30 min
Wed - body weight workout, 45 min hill run, 1 hr bike (sufferfest)
Thurs - am swim, 30 min run
Fri - weights 1 hr, 30 min run, 1 bike
Sat - 2 hr run
Sun - swim, long bike, easy run

I believe since I am keto adapted my body is able to use fat during workouts. No fuel during any workout except water.

Pre workout caffeine

3 meals a day, some snacks like pumpkin seeds, walnuts, almonds and a scoop or two of natural almond or peanut butter.

During my long runs I don't eat anything, just water and salt tabs

After 40 days, I had a cheat evening (on v day) tones of candy, and I was back in ketotis this morning.

I am also looking to experiment with keto friendly fuel once training picks up. Ideas? Coconut oil, almonds .... Not sure though.

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the suffer, the pain, the reward

R Wolansky

Forgot to mention that I have continued to have great runs, with rather quick recovery.

No struggle with intensity during tempo or strength runs.

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the suffer, the pain, the reward

R Wolansky

I can get in fairy quickly as well how long did it take for you to adapt?

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3 weeks. Looking for more weight loss now. I also have had a problem with under fueling and going into "starvation" which has impacted weight loss attempts in the past. Going to keep following plan and adjust as needed.

I will admit that sometimes the nut butters get the best of me. It would stall weight loss if I ate too much, but nonetheless I would still be in keto and have great training sessions.

Being keto adapted theoretically should be a great asset as an endurance athlete.

FYI - did a 16.5 mile run today. Ate breakfast at 7 am. Ran at 10 am. No fuel, no problems at all.

Still I think that i will need to devise some keto snacks for long bikes rides was the snow melts and roads clear.

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the suffer, the pain, the reward

R Wolansky

You should try coconut butter instead of nut butter its made by Artisana. They sell it at Lassens and Whole foods they even sell it in packets now like gels although its tough to squeeze on the bike because its kind of hard unless it gets warm. It has a few carbs 7g in 2 tbsp (5 fiber, 1.9 sugar) but its got 18 grams of fat and never affects ketosis for me and it is the best thing i have ever tasted! Also I highly recommend MCT oil while in ketosis and trying to drop some fat. It goes straight to the liver and forces an immediate release of ketones acting like a thermogenic. I have been dropping the fat pretty quick since using it after a body builder friend of mine recommended it. Good luck with the training

butter (better than MCT, has SCT) , cream, avocado (most of the carbs are fiber)

Probably cuz they got FAT! Awesome, I burn more fat, I stay the same speed, I feel like crap, but I love eating cake!

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"That doesn't make any sense at all, you can be second, third, fourth... hell you can even be fifth." - Reese Bobby, Taladega nights

sholbk wrote:

Has anyone read...The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance. Have you tried a ketogenic diet for training? What was your result?

KETOGENIC DIETS AND ENDURANCE SPORTS = FAIL


NO MATTER HOW "FAT ADAPTED" YOU THINK YOU CAN GET.... YOU'RE NOT GOING TO PERFORM AT YOUR POTENTIAL.


IF YOU JUST WANT TO LOOK GOOD, STRICT KETO/LOW CARB WORKS WELL WITH FAT PEOPLE. WITH PEOPLE ALREADY LEAN SOME SORT OF CYCLIC CARB CYCLING DIET WORKS BEST.

this based on self experimentation? method and results please.

Name 1 world class elite endurance Athlete that uses ketogenic/low carb diet?

None!

I joined my wife on the South Beach Diet - (low carb, lower fat, mild ketosis based on pee strips) since
New years. I agree with the general position that lifestyle and activity are the way to good health - but I also
managed to put on ~15 pounds over the last few years mainly a poor diet and figured a month or two of focus
on aggressivly dropping weight made sense - especially if sweetie would join me in the project. I am 50 years old.

I have been pleased with the results generally - I have gone from 185 and 42lbs of fat (on my Withings scale) to 172
and 33 pounds of fat in 6 weeks. Changing the way my body fuels itself (forcing it to burn fat) instead of feeding it
a dose of carbs every 60 minutes has greatly improved my appetite control.

What it has not been great for is hard training. After the first few days (when I think I actually had the flu) I have been
able to work out at a Z1/Z2 pace with runs and bike up to two hours. (If I went out with my buddies I would suck down a
HammerGel for a little more energy) - but anything much harder is painful. I have been working one tougher workout a
week into my schedule - a Spin class on Friday morning - and I generally feel like shit for day or two afterwards..like first
day of soccer practice with every muscle sore. Reading the posts on acid production explain that nicely...

My logic has been - I'll improve my performance more shedding 15 pounds than keeping more normal training schedule
and diet. I should be at my goal weight of 170 shortly and will go back to fueling exercise with carbs - hopefully with a bit
better discipline and fewer mid-week beers (the primary culprit I believe).

I'm aged up and slimmed down - I hope to be putting a hurt on some of the grey haired men in Lycra this season ;-)

Would I recommended this diet to others? Not necessarily... as many have pointed out it comes with some risks and
questionable science. I do want to point out that it has met my goals -and my wife's who plays tennis 3-4 times a week.
.

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" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978

There are more than you think but unfortunately the majority of athletes have sponsors and there are lots of shitty "food" companies like gatorade out there, so most do not come out and say what they really eat but to name a few Kobe Bryant, Lindsey Vonn (skier) Marty Fish (tennis player) Jokavich (mens #1 ranked tennis player, Ultraman world Champ (can't remember his full name but its Jonas)
It's not for everyone but becoming fat adapted has made a world of difference in the way I feel and look and although my Doc thinks I'm full of shit when I tell him I eat everyday he can't argue with the 65 pounds of weight loss and going from a type 2 diabetic on meds to perfect blood work and a complete reversal of my diabeties

you cant reverse diabetes......as a type 1, i know this disease well. It just doesnt come and go. It can be managed, but not erased. even as a type 2.
On a keto diet your bodies insulin response is obviously affected from a lack of carbs. But please dont think for a second it has gone. Im not trying to be a prick, its just i hear this all the time. If you re-introduce carbs, you will find it will rear its ugly head again. Staying in ketosis allows you to get off the meds like metform etc. This is obviously great, i know several who went this way and had great A1c's etc. But they, like you, still have diabetes. Its just managed.

Type 1 here too and on a Ketogenic diet for 3 1/2 months. My A1C dropped from 7.0 to 5.8% in 7 weeks and goal is sub 5.5%, never had that in my life before. There have been many reports of Type 2 dropping all meds while on the Ketogenic diet. I'm on it for life and would recommend to all diabetics.

On the training front, performance suffered at first (10% slower generally) but it's slowly coming back (3-5% slower) which I can deal with given the health benefits. That said it took a while to get used to it, felt I could function OK after about 3 weeks but still suffered lots on higher intensity sessions, then 3 months after I started there was another switch and have been feeling great since.

Definitely not the diet for a world champion or world class athlete, but for the average age grouper, especially the very health conscious and a bit heavier, can be an interesting choice.

Vinnie

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Vinnie Santana, Multisport Coach
http://www.ironguides.net
* * * Your best is our business. * * *

great A1c drop! yep keto can work. I have never tried it. I keep the carbs and jab accordingly and have had a1c's of 5.7% and 5.5%. although im only a year and a bit diagnosed so i suspect it gets more difficult to hold a1c's like that. It may be something i too have to look at in the future. As a type 1 yourself, wouldnt you have to spike yourself for races/training etc? Pre-diagnosis i never took a gel in my life. Now i have boxes of them.

Spike as in time the carbs around training? That's one solution to improve that last 5% of performance, however I'm not willing to pay the price as blood glucose goes out of whack doing that (or doing a weekly carb up for 5 hours).

The problem is that once the liver glycogen stores are full, its very easy to get the blood sugar spikes due to hormonal response and gluconeogenesis. So no gels ever again for me. If this is working for you that's a great deal, but once the honeymoon phase is over (which you can delay with keto diet), consider it as it makes life a whole lot easier, beyond words to describe.

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Vinnie Santana, Multisport Coach
http://www.ironguides.net
* * * Your best is our business. * * *

do you not go low without supplementing with carbs? I know hormonal response may give an initial rise, but i find this tapers quite quickly. How/what do you eat or do to keep blood sugar in check in a race?

It does not matter how "fat adapted" your body gets, there is a limit on how many calories per hour the body can get from fat. And in a trained athletes this limit is MUCH lower, than the power output for useful training.

So if you are in true ketosis AND don't consume carbs, the exercise intensity will be limited. A lot. As improvement will be.

Whether you like him or not, this guy - Ferrari - knows his stuff, unlike the "standing toilet expert" and magic bracelet salesman: http://53x12.com/...ge=article&id=50

all theory, we can use a well controlled study - taking athletes that are fat adapted of at least 1 year

Doesn't have much effect on weight, but will on composition. 3000kcal/day of ice cream vs chicken and vegetables may leave you at the same weight, but not composition. It has been shown that if you restrict calories you can loose weight regardless of what you are eating, but if you are not doing a very low cal diet, the different foods will result is different composition. I have seen many go on silly fad diets and loose weight while altering their composition in a poor manner, such as loosing muscle while gaining fat...yes, they weighed less, but looked worse.

Theory? The overwhelming majority of high level endurance athletes use a high carb diet. Kenian runners, well documented. Etheopian runners, well documented. Cyclists, triathletes ... Most on high carbs, a few on moderate carbs.

High level endurance athletes being "fat adapted by a fad diet"? None. Zero. Nada. Fat adapted by training? Yes!

Me and Vinnie Tortorich and Rich Roll just did a Spreecast and this topic came up:

http://www.spreecast.com/events/ben-rich-vinnie

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Ben Greenfield

Nutrition & Human Performance Advice
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com

Wrong.

Timothy Olson won Western States 100 on a ketogenic diet.

Ben won Leadville 125 doing it either ketogenically, or at least very low carb.

Would anyone stop to consider for a moment the possibility that since 99.99 percent of endurance athletes follow the herd and conventional wisdom of high carbs, the pool of people actually giving it a go is pretty small? As of right now, that is.

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I'll tell you all right now, my seat is too low, I'm not aero and I carry too much fluid on the bike.

Thanks for the link, love the podcast.
EB

They would be better if they ate more carbs, just the way human body works when you do things demanding

Yeah I'm sure Tim is really sad he missed out on his full potential while SMASHING the course record. But I suppose that was only because of the weather.

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I'll tell you all right now, my seat is too low, I'm not aero and I carry too much fluid on the bike.

You guys really need to give this magical Ketogenic stuff a rest. According to Olsen's own race report, he ate plenty of gels, orange slices, and Sierra Mist. http://www.irunfar.com/...2FwAAy+%28iRunFar%29

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

Maybe I'd be better. Not necessarily healthier though. I don't cross the finish line for paychecks, so I don't necessarily care about being better.

But I do have genetic markers for Type II Diabetes - so being around for my grandchildren is more important.

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Ben Greenfield

Nutrition & Human Performance Advice
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com

RE: Tim Olsen

Low carb / NOT ketogenic diet.

Its not like it was intentional:

To quote him -

They started the climb up to Devils Thumb (mile 48) just a little bit ahead, but this is when things started feeling better for me. I made it through and was ready to climb. The weather was warming up a bit and my uphill legs were feeling strong. Thirty-six switchbacks and 1,500 feet later, I made my way back to the leaders and we rolled into the aid station feeling good. I made a stupid mistake and ran through that aid station a little too quickly. I was feeling so good that I forgot to grab any gels. A half mile down the road I realized I only had one gel and was not going to see my crew for 10 miles, yikes; this made me a little nervous, but I was hoping I could make it.

Mackey, Dylan, Wolfe, Sandes and I all wobbled our way down. When I finally reached the aid station, I was so stoked to get a gel in me, but they did not have one gel without caffeine. I don’t use caffeine and after many bathroom stops at last year’s Western States, I had decided to not use caffeine for this race. I really needed some nourishment quick, so I decided to have a few quick drinks of Sierra Mist and two orange slices. Not exactly what I had in mind, but it had to do. I knew I would be to my crew in five or so miles and then I could restock my pockets with gels that work for me.

I was a little scared with where my nutrition was going; I was really relying on fat as my fuel with the help of Vespa and was just hoping my body would ride the climb out. I had to battle many mind games before and during this year’s race. Circumstances don’t always go your way, but figuring them out on the fly is the only way to survive. The day before the race, I decided to be a part of the test studies. I did not eat breakfast Friday because they wanted us to give blood after a ten-hour fast. In the middle of giving blood I got incredibly dizzy, and the next thing I knew I was having crazy dreams and then woke up on the floor. I’ve never passed out before and it was not my ideal situation to experience it for the first time the day before the biggest race of my life. I felt pretty worn out and funky all day Friday, but regardless, I woke up Saturday ready for the journey that loomed ahead. Things don’t always go as planned, but accepting the situation and letting it not get to me helped me through other stages of the race. So I guess my body can take running a 100 miles in less than 15 hours, but giving blood is just too much for it; life is funny.

Vespa - Yes, its not well documented scientifically, but it is what he uses often in his training and racing. Pretty low carb for a gel. - http://www.vespapower.com/...-of-pouches_p_7.html

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Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach

we already know its more ideal to consume straight sugar during the run because digestion of fat will slow you down. but the ABUSED idea of carbo loading for a race is what Im all about

Right. Some people overreact to stimuli and suffer the consequences. "If some carbs are good, then let's eat TONS of fast carbs! Wait, that made me sick, so let's eat NO carbs at all!" Just eat healthy food.

Edit - Above doesn't apply to TYPE 1 diabetics. My wife is one and I know that's special case stuff. Whatever you gotta do with that, you gotta do.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

the spreecast with vinnie and rich was good idea, but first one a tad disjointed. but the spreecast of superhuman was very good.

I'm doing it for the next 12 weeks leading up to Ironman Canada. Just blogged about it. I'm calling it the "Great Ketogenic Ironman Experiment". So far, I feel like a million bucks.

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Ben Greenfield

Nutrition & Human Performance Advice
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com

Damn, the magic bracelet really works!!! I gots ta get me one of those. Do they come in colors?

you probably eat so pure and healthy, but was wondering did you experience any side effects on ketosis like bad breath or strange body odor?

Yep, and here it is: http://www.skinnybitch.net/

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Rusch Racing | website | @maggieru | Instagram
Ask me about: Alto Cycling | Cuore | Base Performance | XTERRA Wetsuits | Cadence Run Company | First Bourn. Coached by: Desert Dude

Did a more elaborate description on my experience with ketosis, as the first one sparked so many objections. I believe, that ketogenic approach is not appropriate when training/racing entails bouts of higher intensities.

http://lc-triathlete.com/...etosis-for-athletes/