What concerns me is this is based upon suspicion, circumstantial evidence, and no positive test.

Do I think the guy doped? Uh, yeah.

Can it be proven beyond any reasonable measure of doubt? Um, I don't think so.

Bob

"What concerns me is this is based upon suspicion, circumstantial evidence, and here say."

Well, if by that you mean a positive test that was overturned on a technicality, a picture of Kyle holding EPO vials, a signed receipt for $500 worth of drugs, and direct witness testimony, than yeah... the guy was robbed.


" beyond any reasonable measure of doubt " has no bearing on a proceeding like this, the standard applied is typically preponderance of evidence... http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/...nderance+of+Evidence

...here's the def. for "here say(sic)" while we're at it... http://criminal.findlaw.com/...earsay-evidence.html


Wrong guy to stick up for.

I've gone to bat on this forum for more than one athlete accused of doping, but get real; this is as airtight a case as you will ever see, waaaaay more so than a simple positive test result with all the attendant posibility for administrative/lab error IMO...


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Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
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I'm not looking to argue on this one because, quite frankly, Kayle Leo Grande isn't someone I am particularly concerned about. Given that, let me explain my position a bit more as I think it was late when I posted.

1) Do I think the guy doped....Absolutely. I don't think there is much doubt in my mind about that, but what my mind sees and what is applicable under these proceedings or should be applicable gives me pause.

2) Was there a positive test? No and that is what concerns me. This can and probably will set a bad precedent. A few years ago Lance had accusations by a former Postie and alledgedly this employee was told to throw things away. Using this case as precedent, you could now make charges against Lance without a positive test. It's a slippery slope.

3) Do I think the crackdown on doping is bad? No, this case aside, I am concerned about the "authorities" making cases out of a house of cards. I think the first time one of these circumstantial cases fails, it will be a setback to the crackdown on doping.

That said, Kayle Leogrande doped.

Bob

I'm not following. Why should a positive dope test be the only valid evidence that can result in a suspension?

I'm no tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorist, but one could argue that a case could be fabricated out of whole cloth. Usually a suspension/conviction resutled from an admission or a positive doping test. Now there are backdoors that have been created.

As I said, I think this case is one where, though the evidence was circumstantial, it spoke volumes. I worry about the downstream consequences, that's all.

I think it was the ink in all the tattoos

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I think a false case could be manufactured, but in this case why? You're not going to get a book deal outing a mid level pro. Also do you know more details of the hearing other than what was in the link. They gave 2 team members who said he admited and alluded to more that knew. Also the artical alluded to team meetings where his suspension was discussed, using other products, etc. There could have been way more evidence in the hearing than a one page artical mentioned.

All that said I'm with you, I think you have to be sure to suspend someone. I just don't think sure is only a positive test. In this case without reading the hearing transcipt I can't decide one way or the other.

Styrrell

Pic of him I snapped at Tour of MO (at least I assume it is same guy, I didn't know his name until now, I think)

"2) Was there a positive test? No and that is what concerns me."

Yes, there was, but it was overturned on a technicality (as it should have been.)

" This can and probably will set a bad precedent. "

How? There was a ton of evidence against the guy... have you bothered to read any of the coverage of the case?

"A few years ago Lance had accusations by a former Postie and alledgedly this employee was told to throw things away. Using this case as precedent, you could now make charges against Lance without a positive test. It's a slippery slope. "

What slippery slope? The case against Lance was debated in a civil court proceeding, and was dismissed. The evidence against him was no where near as compelling as the evidence in this case...

"3) Do I think the crackdown on doping is bad? No, this case aside..."

Don't put it aside - this is the case we're talking about :0)

" I am concerned about the "authorities" making cases out of a house of cards. "

Give me a break. If there is a house of cards in the "war on doping," it's test procedures with questionable scientific merit, laboratories that consistantly break with protocol, and selective appliction of random testing by protective national federations - not prosecution of air-tight cases based on solid evidence.

"I think the first time one of these circumstantial cases fails, it will be a setback to the crackdown on doping. "

I hate to keep doing this but please - "circumstantial?" http://www.lectlaw.com/def/c342.htm

"evidence in the case included pictures of Leogrande holding EPO vials that were taken at the home of cyclist Joe Papp and a letter that read: "Joe, 2 boxes G. 100 iu; 7 boxes E. 60,000; $500. I owed you! Thanks, Kayle."



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Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
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I know this is shocking, but I'm not goign to argue with you about this one.

In my humble opinion, the search for and rooting out of dopers, while a necessary and noble endeavor, could turn into a witchhunt where rules, regulations, and regard for any sort of due process are thrown out.

That's my only point in this matter. Layle Leogrande is a convicted doper and in honor of this cheat I wore my "Dopers Suck" socks today.

Bob

There WAS a positive test in August 2006. His A sample for a urine test was POSITIVE for EPO. His B sample came back borderline. While the second sample is needed to confirm the A sample, he nonetheless tested POSITIVE for EPO.

That's fine, I get that, but my point to this whole thing is in my post two above....

Bob

"I know this is shocking, but I'm not goign to argue with you about this one."

...and yet you continue to do so :0)


"In my humble opinion, the search for and rooting out of dopers, while a necessary and noble endeavor, could turn into a witchhunt where rules, regulations, and regard for any sort of due process are thrown out. "

I couldn't agree more; I just fail to see how anyone could point to this case as an example of this, or cautionary sign of same. Frankly, your reasons for thinking so appear to be based on either total ignorance of the actual case, misunderstanding of the law and language of same, or a mistaken belief that this represented some kind of a novel application of the pertinent laws and authority. Are you under the misapprehension that this case is the first of it's type, in that it did not rely on a positive analytical finding?


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Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

interesting, similar to Basso, no positive test

Can't we all get along? Can we please hug it out? :-)

Honestly, when I heard the rumors of his tests back in September my reaction was "Well, duh." Now that I've read (I can read!!!!) a bit more about it, while it was a non-postive doping test case, it was about as airtight as you can get. There are you happy? :-)

Bob

I will be if you stop saying "circumstantial" :0)

To quote The Princess Bride, "That word... I do not think it means what you think it means..."

:0)



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Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

http://sports.espn.go.com/...ews/story?id=3737956

Does anyone know why Joe Papp is involved? Receiving money and drug from LeoGrande??

Good riddance. I wish Rock Racing would disappear as well. Their kit is offensive to children and is overpriced. Ball is about hype. If he really wanted to help US cycling, he'd be doing youth development programs.

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I love France. I just hate Toulouse. I'd really hate to lose le Trek.

I had to dig this quote back from the past because it is fucking hilarious. Came upon it when googling Kayle Leogrande, who just won amateur masters nats.

Macho Grande, Nostradamus

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I had friends and teammates in that race and there was a pretty universal 'ugh' heard when he won. Alexi Grewal was racing too.

I had some friends not go because he was there.

[/quote]

Seems like a cycle to dig this thread up.

Beat me to it. I was going to dig up a thread from earlier this year where I defended his time as a masters racer. Shows how naive I am. I was down one spot on the podium to this guy twice last year. Glad his act is probably gone for good, along with that ridiculous over-the-top stars & stripes kit he wore this year. For a masters racer, fine, put some stars on the edge of your sleeve. Save the full-up national champs kits for the junior, elite, and pro winners.

Since there is nothing up on the USADA website yet, it is only fair to the non-SoCal Twitchers to explain why this thread has been resurrected today:

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