http://sheldonbrown.com/kops.html

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Thanks Tom, I'm grasping at straws trying to figure out the problem. I never had any knee problems until I switched to a shorter crank (165 to 155) and I'm trying anything and everything to sort it out. I've raised the saddle accordingly (played around with the height), I've started to mess around with saddle setback as well, and even cleat position. It only seems to affect me on long rides on the trainer of 2hrs+, although I haven't been outside yet (quite cold here). I believe I've ruled out saddle height, and cleat position. So saddle setback, is where I've landed and was hoping others would chime in.

Perhaps a ground up review may be in order.. ie don't rule out any of the adjustable elements as "confimred OK"

Maybe some of the information within these articles may be useful?
http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/articles/


Best of luck.

I will do another, I took a bunch of video of myself, measured all the angles, even had a retul bike fit...and I'm in acceptable ranges on all fronts. I have nice straight knee pedalling action, no bowing in or out...

Sounds like your close, but personally those "acceptable limits" are exactly that guidelines only and absolutely not specifically going to address any personal demands or constraints you may have functionally...
Hence the suggestion to start with the cleats, and foot arch support, varus supprt etc, and then make your way north etc...

Also if you are coming back after a winter of either reduced volume or on other machines, don't discount the likelihood your functionality will have altered since end last season etc...

Thanks Shadwell, will do. I've played with the cleat position and e-soles but will recheck everything again. The only thing that changed was the crank length...it makes no sense. Appreciate the help.

When you change crank length, if you want to keep the relationships to all the other touchpoints the same, not only do you need to change your saddle height, but you should also move your saddle fore/aft AND move your bars up/down and fore/aft to match.

In your case, that would mean that when going from 165 to 155, you should raise your saddle by 10mm while also moving the saddle rearward 10mm as well. This will keep the relationship of your lower leg and foot the same in both cases in the downstroke portion of the pedal cycle (where the power is produced). Also, that means you will need to raise your bars 10mm relative to the BB along with moving your bars rearward 10mm. To not make the bar changes will mean that the rest of your body angles will be different.

Look closely at the overlay pic in this blog post I did about crank lengths to get an idea of what I'm saying: http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/...erwithin-reason.html

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Thanks Tom, I did everything you suggested with the exception of moving the bars up 10mm and back 10mm as I didn't want to bother changing the stem and I've gotten used to the lower position. That said, I'm sure I have a shorter stem lying around and will give it a go. Silly question, but does cleat position also shift forward, as well?

http://mccraw.co.uk/...position-power-loss/

kinda throws some cold water on his hypothesis (for which he supplies no evidence).

I'd like to see some power tests on a prone recumbent as well...

I don't see any geometric reason for why cleat position would need to change.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Neither did I but thought I'd ask. Advice very much appreciated :) making adjustments now...fingers crossed.

It appears RChung was on the case there...but, there's something weird about his cadence selections/differences between the 2 trials.

Oh...and that doesn't match REAL scientific studies that show no significant differences in muscle activation, function, or timing between upright and recumbent pedaling: https://www.google.com/...vm=bv.87269000,d.eXY

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Question: where does your knee hurt exactly? Both knees or just one?

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Just the left knee, sometimes it's right under the knee cap, other times it's on the inside of the knee. I've started massaging it and really working my thumbs into the muscles. The funny thing is my right knee has a partially torn ACL, rehabbing it and doing plenty of knee strengthening exercises, but it feels fine. So my knees and corresponding muscles are all very strong, I previously had ITBS so I've done tons of related routines to strengthen all muscles.

If your BB to saddle height is correct, I very much doubt that kops has any affect, positive or negative, on your knee pain. Are you pretty sure your saddle height is correct?

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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In your original post, you stated that your saddle was max forward. Now you're saying that you moved it back when you went to shorter cranks. So, which is it?

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Steve

"If you ain't first, you're last." Reese Bobby Talladega Nights