I've done a few pool swims in mine to get a feel for it and I'm definitely slower than in my Kiwami, about the same as just wearing a speedo.

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So is it slowing down or "not speeding up" if nothing (speedo) is the baseline?

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He talks about it quite extensively in this thread.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=5181553;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Thanks for posting this. Great information in there

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Yeah, the Calgary thread has kind of gone off topic into a discussion about this. I just posted a couple questions and some of my own observations about the Octane. From Jordan's posts, it sounds like it is the lack of flexibility of the suit that is the issue, since it seems to be affecting his swims even when worn under a wetsuit where drag wouldn't be a problem. It is an interesting discussion. The suit is so fast on the bike (at least for me), I just hate to think that it is slowing me down in the swim...

Right there with ya. I was considering buying the Castelli T1 Stealth again even though it wasn't that great of a top just to counteract the swim problems that seem to be surfacing. Interesting observations though...I'm still not 100% sure what to do with the suit in the water but I BELIEVE it helps me on the bike. I need to go to the A2 tunnel to confirm though.

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I didn't wear a watch for my race this past Sunday, so I'm not sure if the course was long or not, but my swim was slower than ever wearing a T1 with wetsuit.

And on top of that... I started a thread a couple days ago asking about wet clothing being less aero. I never really got an answer but the T1 was soaking wet after 1 hour of riding.

I did my first tri this weekend so will share my thoughts even if nobody cares.....lol.

I have never seam in the PI suit until this weekend. This was a 600 yd swim and I swam with the suit fully zipped inside a wetsuit. I am also a non-swimmer and swam 1:30 / 100 yd.

I had a MASSIVE for me bike split out splitting the field by over 2 mph. 15 mile bike.

I felt zero discomfort on the run. It was 75, sunny and humid and I even forgot to unzip the suit for much of the run.

I realize this is not IM and I'm no pro, but I felt no difference swimming with the sleeves. But I also am a hair under 6' and 153ish#. I could PROBABLY wear a small, but have a medium. Maybe that helps me. I can definitely feel a slight pull while standing fully straight, but also have no wrinkles while riding. This is my first one piece and I find it crazy comfortable.

So for those of us in the AG I just don't see how this suit would kill a race. But....I'm only one data point and haven't done back to back swim testing.

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I've raced in my Octane several times under my wetsuit this season and can say that my lack of swim ability is what's causing me to be slow in the water, not the PI suit.

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Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |

I am glad that you mentioned your feeling that you swam slower with the T1 on. I had my worst 70.3 swim in four years last month while wearing a T1 under my wetsuit. My breathing felt more restricted with the T1, but it is the swim split that made me suspect that the T1's lack of flexibility could be slowing me down. I do like the T1 on the bike and am planning on wearing it at IMMT but only on the bike. I am confident that the time lost by putting the T1 on in transition will be more than made up by a slightly faster bike split. I may not wear the T1 at all if race day ends up being hot.

How do these types of suits compare to De Sota sleeved tri jersey? Same concerns regarding flexibility, etc.?

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I wear the PI Octane, the sleeveless one, it's great and I feel fast as hell in it, only issue is my left nut chafes like a mad man if I go past about 35ish miles.

I probably won't wear it at IMFL, thinking about wearing a speedo. :)

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I have no idea about the De Sota sleeved tri jersey since I have never worn one. The thing is that the aero sleeved tops/suits are aero at least partly because they fit so tightly and have few seams/wrinkles. This means that shoulder flexibility will be limited. Even if it is not noticeable right away, consider how many times you rotate your shoulders in a half or IM swim and it can result in a lot of fatigue.

I had my fastest Oly swim wearing that suit... go figure lol

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

After reading the differing observations here, my first thought is that the restriction depends on how it fits you. Would sizing up help?

I agree. I've worn mine with no wetsuit in races with pool swims, in full distance race simulations in pools, and under a wetsuit in a race in a river and a lake and my swim times are no slower than what they would normally be. In fact in one of my 70.3 race sims in a pool I swam faster in the Octane than I would in a training swim suit and in my last 70.3 I placed the highest I ever have.

if you size up (or for that matter if you make it looser in the shoulders) I would think you're going to make an easier to swim in suit at the cost of a faster to bike in suit.

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Raced with the T1 under a full suit weekend before last in an Olympic distance, then again at Whistler on Sunday. I seriously find it hard to believe that there is any extra loss of shoulder flexibility; i just feel the wetsuit, and it's a decent full suit. My Whistler swim time was slower this year, but I chalk that up to fracturing two ribs 5 weeks ago, and getting in no other swims before race day. Also had my fastest IM bike split with the T1, and had similar power profile to last years race. Just saying...

I'll chime in quickly since I have done some playing around in the Octane suit...

Just buy the size based off your upper body measurements. I don't get why people (read the Octane thread) are stuffing themselves into such small suits because they are so afraid of a shoulder wrinkle. You still have to run and swim in it! I don't see how this suit (in the correct size) could possibly create significant resistance of arm motion and/or breathing. Especially compared to a wetsuit. To me, any non-wetsuit swim with a top/shirt/jersey feels weird, so maybe that could be enough to mess up a stroke and slow down. Swimming is such a 'feel' event.

My thoughts thus far:

Swim w/wetsuit - Unzip it. It will give your arms/shoulder/breathing muscles more freedom. It zips just fine while running to T1. The Octane collar is kind of high for most tops and one race chafed me horribly while never leaving a mark the first two times.

Swim w/out wetsuit - Haven't tried it yet. I opted for the sleeveless 2 piece that day. I suppose you zip it up and hope for the best.

Bike - Zip it all the way up and pull the sleeves down to your elbows. Fly away little birdy. That's why you bought this suit.

Run - Unzip it. You can even unroll the top and tuck it inside of itself around the waist if you really want. Personal opinion only, I really like how the PI pad runs.

Rapp is the man, no doubt. I do remember hearing that he gets is suits tailored around the arms too. Maybe that could hurt the swimming?

I will make some brief comments as I took a lot of backlash in a thread a while back on similar issue. First off a pro race is different race than age-group race. This is not meant to be condescending in the least, it is just different. You see new pros really struggle with this at first. Some adapt really quickly, a good example of this is Justin Metzler on here. I look at his swims in pro races this year and he keeps getting better and better. Is it due to fitness, probably not, he is just a quick learner and has gained experience to have swims that are closer to his true fitness potential.

Every single non-swimmer who makes transition to a pro field will tell you they are blown away by how aggressive the swim start is. I raced in 2006, 07, 08, 09, 10, and 11 as age-grouper so I have a few races under my belt in an AG field. In an IM race, although people are certainly over-zealous at times, in general they swim at the level they are comfortable with. The swim start in a pro race is very tactical where you are either at your limit or above our limit at the start as a non-swimmer. This is because you are jockeying for position, and you know there are people who are swimming above their paygrade and will fall off in short time but you don't want a gap to open up. I can't speak for swimmers because you can never really understand how hard or easy they are swimming and I never will get it because I am not a swimmer. So this all means there is very little margin of error for us non-swimmers, and something like a full-sleeve suit is enough to make a difference.

Think about it this way, are you going to be able to detect the subtle time differences of a Zipp 303 instead of a 404? Prob not, but if you make the swim group in one swim but don't make it in another and that patterns happens repeatably with the only thing changing being the suit, then regardless of whether you feel the difference or not you go with what gives you confidence. I made the comment in earlier threads looking at patterns of times/athletes. If you really study swims you tend to see under-performance in the swim in full sleeve suits, if they don't then they probably had it rolled down and lost time in T1 or it just isn't detectable in that scenario. Why did Marino go with a sleeveless suit at Ironman Canada, he was really one of the original sleeved suit wearers. How about Trevor, why did he go from sleeved suit back to sleeveless? This isn't debating whether they are faster on the track or windtunnel for a specific athlete, but that isn't how success is measured. It is measured by who crosses the finish line first.

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  Bravo Thomas!

It really is an interesting topic. The way a time savings here and a time "penalty" there affect the race are different for each athlete and for that matter different depending on the field. Point of fact, the pro race isn't a time trial so you cannot simply say it costs me :30 on the swim but saves me X watts which translates to Y minutes so I need to wear it. Maybe an AGer can make the decision that simple.

Yep this is just one example of many that an athlete has to think about in a whole host of variables. Some others I can think of are, socks versus no socks, wetsuit (sleeveless vs sleeved), tires (gp4000s tire have good RR and good aero but are not the fastest tires), flat kits, helmets with visor or sunglasses, etc. I think the point is that each person is different and must evaluate what is right for them.

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