Seems like he's supporting a polarized approach to training.


Now, if only there was a thread that dissected the polarized approach for us.....

I know Jan a little bit as my coach works with him for lactate testing. He is a very nice and knowledgeable guy. My coach and the people he trains have achieved some really great success over the years together with Jan (multiple IM WC's - Luc VL, Frederic VL, multiple swimming champs, ....).

His book is imho an absolute must-read.

GReetz,

S.

Interesting. Sounds lke he doesn't think USRPT is the way to go, I'd be interested to know how his hypothesis compares to both USRPT and traditional swim programs for middle distance swimmers.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

His rest or regenerative workout is my redline effort

He is very keen on training each athlete as an individual.

Haven't read Olbrecht, but Steve Magness has a running book out with the same ideas (he's studied Olbrecht, Canova). For the same event, you can have athletes who are more fast twitch or slow twitch oriented and can respond better with different training stress.

Probably controversial to the 2x20 @ FTP at all times adherents. (There's a time and an athlete for that workout.)

No, it is your regenerative level, about 65% of VO2 max or a little less. A pace that is easy for everyone.

From his book



The first chapter of Olbrecht's book is online.

http://www.lactate.com/sciwin_ch01.html


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Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom

This idea has been on the internet for 16 years. Olbrecth developed a triathlon site for us in 1998 (still online), a year after van Lierde set his Ironman world record. Here is what it says

http://www.lactate.com/triathlon/trwhy.htm scroll to bottom of page

We have spent very little on discussing the threshold testing of athletes. There are several reasons for this:

1. Firstly a lot of different definitions of thresholds, with respect to aerobic and anaerobic energy supply, exist, all with different physiological significance. The only metabolic threshold that can be considered as a reliable reference for the long term performance capacity of an athlete is the maximal lactate steady state (MaxLass) which is defined as the heaviest work load over a longer period (mostly >20min) where the athlete is able to stay at a constant lactate concentration. At this point lactate elimination equals its production. The speed that can be reached at MaxLass, determines the aerobic power of the athlete. A high lactate elimination capacity of the athlete may allow the anaerobic energy supply to contribute to a greater extent during a long term effort without an increase of the lactate level.
   
   
2. The experimental determination of MaxLass is very work and time intensive, time and efforts that can not be spent on training. For elite triathletes we can reliably calculate the MaxLass based on a simulation program that uses lactate test results from a multiple distance test. This is an alternative for elite athletes but is not necessary for the development of the recreational and serious athlete.
   
   
3. The different methodologies to determine metabolic thresholds based on multiple step tests are not only very time consuming but are subject to intensive discussions on their validity and reproducibility.
   
   
4. From the perspective of the physiology and the training science there also is very little scientific evidence about the significance of any metabolic threshold for training. Based on the science of training, it is even contradictory to believe that one training type, such as a training exercise at the anaerobic threshold, should be the determinant factor for success in training. Since a lot of different biological adaptations are needed for improvement in competitive performance, an athlete will have to combine different exercise types, each of them triggering one of the needed biological adaptations.
   
   
5. Finally all speculations as well as the lack of a clear statement regarding thresholds provoke with coaches and athletes more confusion than advantages.

As a consequence the cost in time from the methodology used to determine a reliable anaerobic threshold (MaxLass) is not offset enough by the usability of this information for training efficiency. There is neither scientific proof or an argument from a training science perspective that a training set at the aerobic or anaerobic threshold has any advantage over a good balanced program of different types of training. Therefore the determination of a aerobic or anaerobic threshold should be reserved for academic study approaches.

The triathlon world ignored what the training adviser of the world record holder had to say. We tried to arrange for him to speak at Kona but the organizers were not interested. He continued on providing training advise to more world record holders, Olympic and World Championship medal winners and many other top athletes. And still does today as he works now with Australian swimming as well as other national teams.


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Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom

The new coach of the Dutch swimming team who took over for Jacco Verhaeren, is Marcel Wouda who was one of the swimmers advised by Olbrecht. He won gold and silver in the 200 and 400 IM (Individual medley not Ironman) at World Championships. Does that count for middle distance?

The fastest 400 m free is by Pieter van den Hoogenband who swam 3:47.20 in 2002.

Another distance swimmer, Maarten van der Weijden, won the Olympic 10,000 m swim in Beijing and the 25,000 open water World Championship.

So swimmers advised by Olbrecht have won Olympic and World Championship records at distances of 50m, 100m, 200m, 400m, 10,000m and 25,000m.

Jacco Verhaeren, who Wouda replaced, is is now the head coach of the Australian swimming team. Jan now advises some of the Australian swimmers in addition to his work with other national teams and local age group programs.


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Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom

I agree, his tables of swimming paces based on a max effort test prescribe training at an extremely low level of effort. I tried his ideas many years ago now, and suffered a marked drop in performance, but I now understand what the problem was. I tried his ideas before encountering the PMC, TSS etc, and I can see now that my CTL simply went down because I reduced the intensity of my training with no change in duration. An important point to understand is that this type of regime only improves performance (for me, at least) if you use it as a means of increasing CTL, i.e. not only must you increase the duration to compensate for the lower intensity, you must increase the duration even more than that, so that it more than compensates and you are racking up more TSS per day than you would if you were training at higher intensity.

65 pct of vo2max, thats not recovery as for example coggan defines it? Isnt it more like mid to upper zone 2?

Ummm, I wasn't asking for his CV nor was I criticizing him or his approach. I was asking what the critical differences are between his training philosophy and the approaches advocated by USRPT and the traditional swimming programs.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I will send this comment to Jan and see if he responds. He may not respond right away since he is incredibly busy. I am not sure he will understand what PMC, TSS, CTL etc means.

He may not be interested in the PMC and TSS since he is focused on energy systems not some overall measure of stress. He may relate somewhat to CTL since this somehow represents duration as well as intensity but it doesn't seem to be entirely compatible with his ideas.

I will see if he responds but it may be awhile.


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Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom

I am sorry, if the reply was inappropriate. I was trying to show that his ideas work with all distances including middle distances.

To understand the differences between his approach and others one will have to read his book. Others who are familiar with each may want to comment.


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Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom

Jerry

What is regenerative effort in olbrechts world? Is it very very easy ie jog effort in runni g or soft pedaling in biking or is it actually a bit faster ie on a bike trainer you can watch tv without any problem but reading a book is a challenge but possible?

The book makes it clear that training needs to be carefully increased, intensity or duration or both to bring about improvements. He also says many train at too high an intensity.

Unless I missed it, there isn't much in the book about how he quantifies intensity and duration, but then one assumes coaches have all they need in laps and lap times, so it isn't difficult to work out if duration, laps, intensity speed or whatever has increased.

I assume from the book he isn't particularly interested in quantifying the volume and intensity combined and coming up with some sort of score. He seems more interested in exactly how the athlete is responding to the training, planning and adapting training to the individual.

But it must be remembered the book is about swimming, where other than pool temperature, and costume design, the pool is in effect a power meter, so coaches shouldn't have much trouble quantifying training.

Also following the comments he makes about how careful one has to be with intense efforts and the time it takes to recover from them and how he thinks in terms of rest and regeneration and the timing of exactly when to do particular sessions, I get the impression he doesn't have much interest in the numbers approach based on FTP.

I'm sure he knows all about FTP, TSS and cycle power meter metrics, he may even use them with cyclists for all I know, but it isn't covered in the book.

Edit. I did miss something. There is a section about intensity and volume. Lactate measurement drives the decisions as to the intensity and volume which are individually tailored even though the athletes may be training for the same events. Computer print outs are generated for coaches to use. There are some pace and volume tables shown in the book.

Here is one way to estimate regenerative training paces. It is something that should be experimented with over time as each athlete is different. I don't have access to the computer program that Olbrecht uses so these are based on some example he has provided us in the past.

From our website on the triathlon:

http://www.lactate.com/..._training_paces.html

When dealing with recreational athletes there are easy ways to calculate regeneration and extensive or what are called aerobic training levels for swim, bike and run, and what some intensive or more anaerobic effort levels are. Any training program can make use of these levels or establish other levels in order to plan training.

For example, here is a simple way to estimate regenerative or extensive paces from a V4 pace. For a recreational triathlete, estimate regenerative or extensive paces at about 85%-90% of the V4 pace. For example, if the V4 is 3.30 m/s or about 5:03 per 1000 m then the regenerative paces would be about 3.0 m/s (5.55 per km) or about 90% of the V4 pace.

For an elite triathlete whose V4 pace was 5.49 m/s, the regenerative pace would be about 3.9 m/s or 70% of the V4 pace. To the normal observer, this sounds odd. The low-level triathlete can do most of his volume at 90% of the V4 pace, while the elite triathlete who competes with the world's best must do his regenerative workouts at 70%-72% of his V4. But if one realizes that the V4 of the elite triathlete is probably about 92% of VO2 max while the V4 of the recreational triathlete is only about 75% of VO2 max then the recommendations make sense. Both athletes would do regenerative workouts at about 68-70% of VO2 max.

Notice that the regenerative pace of the elite triathlete is about 20% faster than the V4 pace of the recreational triathlete. In other words if the recreational triathlete ran as fast as possible, he would not be able to keep up with the elite triathlete doing an easy run. Most triathletes are between these two examples and as serious triathletes get closer and closer to the elite status, they have to worry a lot more about how fast their paces are during training.

Before we discuss what to do with an athlete that is between the recreational triathlete above and a potential top 10 finisher at Kona, let's discuss what each athlete represents. One is a relative novice while the other is one of the best in the world. The elite triathlete has a long history of successful training seasons and knows what works and does not work for him. The recreational triathlete is entering a new world and should be cautious as he learns what best for him. As this athlete trains and tests over the next two years his conditioning should improve and his focus should be on increasing aerobic capacity. He will not pay as much attention to anaerobic capacity. His coach should gradually lower the percentage of his V4 to calculate his regenerative runs. It started out at 90% for regenerative runs but as the V4 moves to the right, the percentage should drop to 85% or even less.

These are rules of thumb to estimate training paces and will be affected by the anaerobic capacity of the athlete. An athlete with a very low anaerobic capacity may have to lower the intensity of these paces somewhat. The coach or the athlete should experiment with them over time as well as volume. A commenter above suggested that there has to be an increase in volume at these low levels to offset the lower intensity. I will ask Olbrecht about this. I don't believe he equates going slower for a longer time with going faster for a shorter time (total distance covered is the same). These are two different types of workouts and will have different effects on the aerobic system.

Also it is possible to use a spot lactate test to verify that the athlete's regenerative pace is not too strenuous. They are almost always on the baseline of the lactate curve.

Here are three sets of examples from our 1998 web site on the triathlon that Olbrecht wrote for us. Some of the terminology might be hard to understand at first.

http://www.lactate.com/triathlon/trex1.htm

Take this for what it is worth. These are principles of a training philosophy that should be considered when designing training programs because it has worked. How it implemented will depend on each coach or athlete. Different coaches will have their own way of incorporating it into their program. Ot they may chose to do something very different. But whatever it is, test.

from our web page on the concept of steering which is the essence of Olbrecht's training approach:

http://www.lactate.com/steering.html




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Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom

On average, for a trained cyclist FTP is about 80% of VO2max, so 65% of VO2max would be an IF of 0.81, or pretty much smack in the middle of level 2.

'There is neither scientific proof or an argument from a training science perspective that a training set at the aerobic or anaerobic threshold has any advantage over a good balanced program of different types of training. Therefore the determination of a aerobic or anaerobic threshold should be reserved for academic study approaches.'

I'm surprised by this statement as I've read many an article recommending this type of training at or just below or above FTP.


This is a typical example.

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/three-ways-to-improve-functional-threshold-power

'Build up to 3x15 minute efforts at 100-105 percent of FTP with 8 minutes of easy spinning between efforts. The “gold standard” FTP workout is 2x20 minute efforts at 100-105 percent of FTP with 10 minutes of easy spinning between efforts.'

Thanks this is what I was looking for.

It is easy to misinterpret "regenerative effort" as meaning recovery effort and that a large part of training should be done soft pedalling or jogging - but 0,81 is actually somewhere on the boarder between easy and moderate in my view.

I'm surprised as well, as it would seem to argue that lactate testing is a waste of time.

I'm not really surprised, but amused by the irony.

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Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com

In the book Olbrecht makes the following claim.

'The accuracy of the lactate readings on the other hand allows us to discern the difference between 2 swimmers who's 400m freestyle best time differs by only 1 second.'

He uses a theoretical metabolic model program to determine an individuals aerobic and anaerobic capacities from the lactate tests. This is then used to determine the best training most suitable for the individual.


Fascinating book. Well worth the £25 the Kindle edition costs.

When we first met Jan we asked him about training at the threshold. He said it was bad training advice because it was too stressful, probably one of the most stressful workouts there is because it can be carried out for a long period of time.

He said training is a process of breaking down and the building up to a higher level (see the comments on super compensation above.) Training at the threshold breaks down too much. Because of that he rarely uses such sets in his training programs. Training at the threshold does reduce anaerobic capacity and as such one or maybe two such sets are useful in the pre competition phase of training for some athletes. But when they are employed they are surrounded by recovery workouts to help offset the stress to the aerobic system.

This is counter-intuitive to many and it was to us when we first heard it but it makes sense once you start to understand just what happens during the training process.


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Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom